MSNBC’s Morning Joe rains hell on right-wing Christians for choosing Trump’s 'blasphemy' over Christ's teachings

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MikeInVA said:
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LeafByNiggle:
There is no dogma on voting that demands what you demand.
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No, just Catholic teaching.
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Please cite the official teaching document that says what you claim, and not just the opinion of some priest who passes off his view as Catholic teaching.
 
vz71 said:
An arguable point.
But the fact that it is arguable means it is not an intrinsic evil.
Abortion, being an intrinsic evil, trumps that point.
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It is false that an intrinsic evil trumps an ordinary evil all the time, as I showed above. In addition it is important to remember what is being debated. I am not debating or questioning or denying that abortion is evil. I am debating what the appropriate civic response to this evil should be. Although the fact that abortion is evil is not debatable , the choice of the best public policy to combat this evil is debatable.
 
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I have no doubt that you are personally generous and do what you can for the disadvantaged. But when there are systemic injustices there is only so much that personal efforts can do. During the slavery era there were many individuals who ran the underground railroad and did what they could to help escaped slaves. But it took radical change in government to help a significant number of the slaves achieve their freedom. Likewise , individual efforts today , laudable as they may be, are not a replacement for systemic change.
 
LeafByNiggle said:
I have, on many occasions, invited pro-life posters here to support universal pre-natal health care and delivery services free of charge to reduce the incentive for abortion and to show women that we stand with them in their mission to bring forth new life. So far that invitation has been universally disregarded.
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Not at all. As I have mentioned before, I support Catholic Charities of Southern Missouri, which operates one “birthing” home for women, providing even more than what you want, since it includes education, vocational training and job referral after the child is born. It also provides safety from the boyfriends, pimps and others who often cause women to have abortions.

Also, the Sisters of Life who do the same thing.
 
When people talk about “systemic change” they rarely describe in detail what that means.

Personally, though, I do believe personal efforts are likely to do more than governmental bandaids that don’t really go to the root of some of the major causes; complicity or compulsion by others, lack of opportunity, mental or chemical disorders.

What I also believe is that the Church in the U.S., particularly many of the bishops, ought to get it out of their heads that the way to do charity is to ask government to do it, and to really promote programs like Catholic Charities of Southern Mo,or Sisters of Life, that provide not only the material aid, but the psychological, chemical, social and economic help.

Having said that, I seriously question whether “systemic change” in the form of increased welfare will affect the abortion decisions of college girls or suburban professional women. After all, even the former president of the U.S. wanted abortion available for his exceedingly privileged daughters so they wouldn’t be “burdened with a baby”. His own grandchildren he’s talking about there; children whose lives he could save by raising them himself. But no, killing them was his thought. “Systemic change” in the form of increased welfare will not change attitudes like that.
 
Exodus 20:13, Mathew 19:18.

What part of “Thou shall not kill.” is so difficult for some people to understand?
 
I’ll add this to my rant. Fully 20% of the population of the U.S. is Catholic. Some say 25%. That’s an enormous resource. And yet, as compared to some of the protestant sects, we’re not very generous when it comes to donations. Why is that? I am personally convinced that it’s due to a lack of leadership and misguided leadership. Take USCCB, for example. It has all kinds of things to which it donates money gathered from the faithful. What does anybody know about any of that? Not a lot. Some, we know, gets donated to “charitable” groups that are actually “political change” organizations. Many dioceses take government money to “resettle” refugees designated by the UN, and about which even the government knows little or nothing. We’re talking millions and millions of dollars.

And the faithful don’t donate anywhere near as much as do evangelicals. 20% of the population could effect enormous works, and once did. But they have been largely abandoned in favor of political causes our leaders think more important than personal charity.

One interesting anecdote. Catholic Charities got permission from the bishop to put on one plea one sunday. It couldn’t be organized in time because little was given. It was for “Life House” the home for women to live during pregnancy and after. So it actually got done in almost no parishes. But where it was done, the financial result was very heartening. Imagine how it could be (and perhaps this year it will be) if more widespread and given more advance notice.

I think Catholics would be happy to contribute more to actual, direct, charitable aid. But I think most of us are leery about money going to outfits like ACORN (which got millions from USCCB) that are just political, (as are some of the remnants of old religious orders too) or to renovate churches to comport with the latest styles.

People need clarity of purpose. Right now the Church in the U.S. is just adrift without unity of leadership or purpose. Sorry to say it, but it’s true.
 
Ridgerunner said:
Take USCCB, for example. It has all kinds of things to which it donates money gathered from the faithful.
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I have never heard of a collection for the USCCB. Our diocese has a collection for various services, but they are completely transparent about what those services are.
Ridgerunner said:
Personally, though, I do believe personal efforts are likely to do more than governmental bandaids that don’t really go to the root of some of the major causes;
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Then apply that principle to abortion. Instead of asking the government to solve it by criminalizing it, rely exclusively on personal efforts.
 
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As I said, condemning me does not change the fact that those who support pro-abortion politicians are complicit in massive murders.

You have not told us what the “proportionate” reason is that outweighs the murder of a million innocent children per year. You haven’t because you can’t. It doesn’t exist. You just attack me personally. I could be wrong, but I doubt anyone on here is fooled.
 
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sallybutler said:
since he is for abortions in certain situations, he is for abortions. sort of like being a little bit pregnant is being pregnant,
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No, it’s not like that.
Even Catholics manage exceptions, like endoscopic pregnancy.
By method of treatment, we protect the life of the Mother.
 
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LeafByNiggle said:
By placing abortion platforms above all other concerns in voting you do essentially ignore them.
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Are you serious? What about all the private agencies and volunteer work that is being done for homeless and pregnant women and their children? Really? My working in a homeless shelter means I’m “essentially” ignoring the very people I am feeding?
 
LeafByNiggle said:
Instead of asking the government to solve it by criminalizing it, rely exclusively on personal efforts.
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The same logic could be applied to rape, theft, assault, etc.
Perhaps all of the laws should be put aside in favor whatever twisted logic this is.
 
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