Mt. 1:25 No Relations Until She Bore a Son?

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Actually, it says the assembly became silent as they listened to Barnabas and Paul, it doesn’t say they shut up when Peter spoke. (Acts 15:6-12).

Acts 15: 6 The apostles and elders met to consider this question. 7 After much discussion, Peter got up and addressed them: “Brothers, you know that some time ago God made a choice among you that the Gentiles might hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe. 8 God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us. 9 He did not discriminate between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith. 10 Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of Gentiles a yoke that neither we nor our ancestors have been able to bear? 11 No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are.”

Seems like there was no one talking after Peter got up and spoke and made the doctrinal prounouncement…which was the whole point of this council…who made the doctrinal announcement…Peter.

The crowd became silent further to listen to the stories of Paul and Barnabas.
Furthermore, James speaks before the matter is ‘settled’. I’m not sure what source you’re using when you say Peter relates a story and the assembly shuts up and the matter is settled.
 
Actually, it says the assembly became silent as they listened to Barnabas and Paul, it doesn’t say they shut up when Peter spoke. (Acts 15:6-12). Furthermore, James speaks before the matter is ‘settled’. I’m not sure what source you’re using when you say Peter relates a story and the assembly shuts up and the matter is settled. .
Acts 15:6-12 says this:

“6 The apostles and the elders were gathered together to consider this matter. 7 And after there had been much debate, Peter rose and said to them, “Brethren, you know that in the early days God made choice among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe. 8 And God who knows the heart bore witness to them, giving them the Holy Spirit just as he did to us; 9 and he made no distinction between us and them, but cleansed their hearts by faith. 10 Now therefore why do you make trial of God by putting a yoke upon the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear? 11 But we believe that we shall be saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, just as they will.” 12 And all the assembly kept silence; and they listened to Barnabas and Paul as they related what signs and wonders God had done through them among the Gentiles.”

Notice there was much debate and after this Peter stands and speaks and Act 12 says:

“12 And all the assembly kept silence; and they listened to Barnabas and Paul as they related what signs and wonders God had done through them among the Gentiles.”

Notice they kept their silence that was the silence they commenced when Peter spoke. They then remained silent when Paul and Barnabus spoke. As for the source I am using it is what I quoted from Acts 15:6-12. But here allow me to pull out what Peter says beginning in verse 7:

“Brethren, you know that in the early days God made choice among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe. 8 And God who knows the heart bore witness to them, giving them the Holy Spirit just as he did to us; 9 and he made no distinction between us and them, but cleansed their hearts by faith. 10 Now therefore why do you make trial of God by putting a yoke upon the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear? 11 But we believe that we shall be saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, just as they will.”

That is what settles the issue of whether Gentile converts are to be first circumcized. What James adds has nothing to do with that issue. Instead he first backs up Peter. Look at verses 13-18:

". 13 After they finished speaking, James replied, "Brethren, listen to me. 14 Simeon has related how God first visited the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name. 15 And with this the words of the prophets agree, as it is written, 16 ‘After this I will return, and I will rebuild the dwelling of David, which has fallen; I will rebuild its ruins, and I will set it up, 17 that the rest of men may seek the Lord, and all the Gentiles who are called by my name, 18 says the Lord, who has made these things known from of old.’

Then James adds this as an adendum to the issue of circumcision before baptism:

“19 Therefore my judgment is that we should not trouble those of the Gentiles who turn to God, 20 but should write to them to abstain from the pollutions of idols and from unchastity and from what is strangled and from blood. 21 For from early generations Moses has had in every city those who preach him, for he is read every sabbath in the synagogues.”
Secondly, Peter had formerly been erring in regard to this same type of Gentile issue. Galatians 2:11 shows Paul correcting Peter about a crucial issue at the time. In my mind, this passage alone cuts the legs right off any grounds for Papal Supremacy.
Apparently to you “Papal Supremacy” means Peter has to be sinless. To You “Papal Supremacy” equals “Papal Impeccability”. Now you show me where that is a doctrine of the Catholic Church because it is not. The Doctrine is Papal Infallibility. Understand correctly what it is and what it is not. It means that the Pope is protected by the Holy Spirit from teaching error when certain conditions exist. He must speak as Pope intending to teach to the whole church not just a part of it. It has to be a matter involving faith and morals. The doctrine is stated thusly:

"“when, in the exercise of his office as shepherd and teacher of all Christians, in virtue of his supreme apostolic authority, he defines a doctrine concerning faith or morals to be held by the whole Church”.

Is this novel? No, all christians will argue that when the authors of scripture wrote they were protected from error by the Holy Spirit also. Asfor the incident you bring up of when Paul rebuked Peter, you tell me what was Peter teaching or defining. Anything? NO, he was sitting down for a meal. Personal sin has nothing to do with it. In the 2000 years since Peter there have been a bunch of very unholy popes who committed sins of all types. Yet when protestant scholars investigate them they cannot find even one solitary instance of when a pope taught error. Not one! Your problem is you are against something you have no understanding of, something that does not exist. Understand Catholicism for what it really is and not some made up protestant fairy tale.
 
I have learned that every conversation with a catholic about his belief comes down to one thing, their translation of the bible on the athority of the church. I found a very informative website on the subject of Peter and keys. I would advise anyone to read the whole thing through! cogwriter.com/peterkeys.htm

I know I am very late with this reply, but I hope it opens someones eyes to the truth. God bless, and may the holy spirit guide us all to wisdom!
As Catholics the Holy Spirit has guided us already.👍
 
“The Bible uses “lithos” for small stones, not petros, if I remember correctly.”

Yes. For example, David kills Goliath with a lithos.
Lithos does not mean just small stone either. In the gospels of Matthew, Luke and John the word lithos is used to describe the stone used to seal Jesus’ tomb. [See Mt 27:60, Lu 24:2 and Joh 20:1] In John’s gospel the word lithos is also used to describe the seal on Lazurus’ tomb. [See Joh 11:38-41]
 
Sorry about that Ink… sometimes I have the attention span of a tree frog.

From AgapeBibleStudy.Com, which has a fantastic Bible Study on the Book of James, I found this:
The James “the brother of the Lord” that Paul met in Jerusalem is an Apostle just like Peter. That is scripture and is inerrant. Now you have to deal with the fact that contains an apparent contradiction. You can’t have one of the two Apostles named James as a sibling brother of the Lord but yet claiming a different ancestry than Jesus. That is an impossibility. Now how do you reconcile that? And make no mistake, you do have to reconcile that or the idea that scripture is inerrant is hogwash. There is no way you can reconcile it other than to realize that the Greek word adelphos which Paul uses here does not have the strict meaning of a sibling brother. But if you insist that it does then you have to explain why Jesus calls all of the apostles His brothers [See MT 28:10] And that is not the only place where Jesus does not use the word *adelphos/oi * to mean something other than a sibling relationship.

So how do you explain that and maintain Bible inerrancy?
 
The James “the brother of the Lord” that Paul met in Jerusalem is an Apostle just like Peter. That is scripture and is inerrant. Now you have to deal with the fact that contains an apparent contradiction. You can’t have one of the two Apostles named James as a sibling brother of the Lord but yet claiming a different ancestry than Jesus. That is an impossibility. Now how do you reconcile that? And make no mistake, you do have to reconcile that or the idea that scripture is inerrant is hogwash. There is no way you can reconcile it other than to realize that the Greek word adelphos which Paul uses here does not have the strict meaning of a sibling brother. But if you insist that it does then you have to explain why Jesus calls all of the apostles His brothers [See MT 28:10] And that is not the only place where Jesus does not use the word *adelphos/oi * to mean something other than a sibling relationship.

So how do you explain that and maintain Bible inerrancy?
Ink, what in the world are you talking about?!? I never claimed that, now did I?

Also, where does it say that the James, the brother of the Lord, that Paul met was an Apostle like Peter.
 
Ink, what in the world are you talking about?!? I never claimed that, now did I?

Also, where does it say that the James, the brother of the Lord, that Paul met was an Apostle like Peter.
You posted a quote in which the first sentence read, “James, the Lord’s brother, succeeds to the government of the Church in conjunction with the Apostles.” This sounds like this James was not an Apostle. But Paul writes in Galatians 1:19

“But I saw none of the other apostles except James the Lord’s brother”

There he identifies the James he saw as 1. an apostle and 2. the brother of the Lord.
 
You posted a quote in which the first sentence read, “James, the Lord’s brother, succeeds to the government of the Church in conjunction with the Apostles.” This sounds like this James was not an Apostle. But Paul writes in Galatians 1:19

“But I saw none of the other apostles except James the Lord’s brother”

There he identifies the James he saw as 1. an apostle and 2. the brother of the Lord.
Ink,

We’ve been over this before. The early Church Fathers are split on whether James, the Brother of the Lord, is an original apostle or not. Like the Church Fathers, you and I disagree.

If I ever heard of one of the Apostles being called “a brother of the Lord” in any of the Gospels, then I would buy into your theory. For instance, Luke refers to a James as “brother of the Lord” in Acts, but he never refers to either of the James as “brothers of the Lord” in his Gospel. Considering that Luke and Acts are two parts of the same story, this would seem odd if that were the case.
 
Ink,

We’ve been over this before. The early Church Fathers are split on whether James, the Brother of the Lord, is an original apostle or not. Like the Church Fathers, you and I disagree.

If I ever heard of one of the Apostles being called “a brother of the Lord” in any of the Gospels, then I would buy into your theory. For instance, Luke refers to a James as “brother of the Lord” in Acts, but he never refers to either of the James as “brothers of the Lord” in his Gospel. Considering that Luke and Acts are two parts of the same story, this would seem odd if that were the case.
Well apparently Paul is convinced that the James he saw who he identified as “the brother of the Lord” was an Apostle. So I’ll go with Paul and Scripture.

By the way, in what verse in Acts does Luke call James the brother of the Lord??? I searched for it but the closest I could come was Acts 12:2 which says:

“2 He killed James the brother of John with the sword;”

But this is the wrong James.
 
I think the discussion digressed far from the title. At any rate, the words “brother” and “sister” in the bible cannot be taken literally, because there is hard evidence within the bible that they cannot be taken literally:

(Genesis 14:14) And when Abram heard that his brother was taken captive, he armed his trained servants, born in his house, three hundred and eighteen, and pursued them unto Dan.

“Brother” here is referring to Lot who it the nephew of Abram and NOT his brother.

(John 19:25) Near the cross of Jesus stood his mother, his mother’s sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene.

We know very well that Jesus’ mother is Mary and here they are saying that Jesus’ mother had a sister by the name of Mary as well. How likely is it for a “Mary” to have a “sister” by the name of “Mary” also? So “sister” cannot be taken literally here either. So I don’t know why some people insist on taking (Mark 6:3) literally.

This is (Mark 6:3) Isn’t this the carpenter? Isn’t this Mary’s son and the brother of James, Joseph (Joses), Judas and Simon? Aren’t his sisters here with us?” And they took offense at him.

*(Matthew 27:55 - 56) 55 Many women were there, watching from a distance. They had followed Jesus from Galilee to care for his needs.
56 Among them were Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James and Joseph (Joses), and the mother of Zebedee’s sons.
*

(Matthew 27:55 - 56) is describing the scene at Jesus’ crucifixion and death, and notice that Matthew is referring to one “Mary” as the mother of “James” and “Joseph (Joses)”. If “James” and “Joseph (Joses)” were the true brothers of Jesus, don’t you think that it would be a lot more relevant to refer to “Mary” as the mother of “Jesus” under his cross rather than referring to her as the mother of “James” and “Joseph (Joses)”? So Mary the mother of “James” and “Joseph (Joses)” is a different Mary here and is NOT Virgin Mary.
 
There are a couple of additional points that I would like to comment on:
  1. The first one is the issue with (Matthew 1:25) He had no relations with her until she bore a son, and he named him Jesus. Well, besides the fact that Saint Matthew was ONLY concerned about the time interval that is between Jesus’ conception and Jesus’ birth, and he was NOT concerned at all about what happened between Mary and Joseph after the birth of Jesus, grammatically speaking, what happens after the “until” does NOT have to be the opposite of what happens before the “until”. Let’s use this sentence to prove it: “The husband had a big argument with his wife, and they never spoke with each other again until their divorce.” Now the question here is what happened after the divorce? Did they speak with each other after the divorce or they did not speak with each other? I believe the answer to this question would be both cases are possible after their divorce.
  2. The second issue is the usage of the “first-born” term. When the bible refers to Jesus as the “first-born” son of Mary, that does NOT necessitate that there is a “second-born”, a “third-born”, etc… And the proof to that can be found in (Hebrews 1:6) And again, when he leads the first-born into the world, he says: “Let all the angels of God worship him.” Here Saint Paul is referring to Jesus as the “first-born” of God. I hope that God has only One Son; otherwise, we are all in trouble.
 
  1. The first one is the issue with (Matthew 1:25) He had no relations with her until she bore a son, and he named him Jesus. Well, besides the fact that Saint Matthew was ONLY concerned about the time interval that is between Jesus’ conception and Jesus’ birth, and he was NOT concerned at all about what happened between Mary and Joseph after the birth of Jesus, grammatically speaking, what happens after the “until” does NOT have to be the opposite of what happens before the “until”. Let’s use this sentence to prove it: “The husband had a big argument with his wife, and they never spoke with each other again until their divorce.” Now the question here is what happened after the divorce? Did they speak with each other after the divorce or they did not speak with each other? I believe the answer to this question would be both cases are possible after their divorce.
This is an important point. We have to look back at the original Greek for “until” in Matthew 1:25, find other uses of that expression in the New Testament, and determine whether the interpretation “the phrase doesn’t imply anything about what happened later on” holds true in more than one case.

Such is the only way to settle the question once and for all, since those who object to the doctrine of St. Mary’s perpetual virginity are indifferent to citations from the early Church in its support.
 
Well! I am totally ignorant of the Greek language, but what I can say is that I am fluent in French and in Arabic, since I am a Lebanese Catholic.In both French and Arabic the usage of “until” is identical to its usage in English.

The meaning of the word “until” and almost any other word in any language is very context dependent anyway. I can think of many situations where what happens after “until” has to be the opposite of what happens before “until”; such as “The doctor won’t be in his office until 5:00 p.m.”, or “The doctor will be in his office until 5:00 p.m.” These two examples do mean that what happens after “until” is the opposite of what happens before; however, in (Matthew 1:25), we do have to take into account that Saint Matthew is truly focusing on the time interval between Jesus’ conception and Jesus’ birth and that was his only aim, and he was not trying to handle the situation of what happened between Mary and Joseph after the birth of Jesus. So in this instance the usage of “until” leaves us with no answer on what happened after “until”. So this particular instance cannot be used by Catholics nor by Protestants to prove their points.
 
I guess I’m coming in a bit late on this as well, but here’s my 2 cents worth -
2 Sam 6:23 uses the word Greek word heos (from the LXX). Matt 1:25 uses a Greek phrase, heos hu, which does indicate a change afterward. That Joseph and Mary DID have relations after the birth of Jesus is (I assert) obvious from Scripture. Let’s review - Mary was engaged to Joseph BEFORE she was told she would be the mother of Jesus. Joseph was told in a dream not to be afraid to take Mary as his WIFE (which he did)! There is nothing in Scripture (other than Matt 1:25 where we’re told Joseph didn’t know Mary UNTIL the birth of Jesus) telling us the marriage was NOT consumated (other than “oral tradition”, based (apparently) on human logic, but not backed up anywhere in scripture), so why should we think that Joseph and Mary DIDN’T have normal, marital relations? Furthermore, Matt 13:54-56 and Mark 6:1-3 clearly indicates (actually names) brothers (James, Joses, Simon & Judas) and sisters (plural, so at least 2). Notice, no other relatives were mentioned (other than Joseph and Mary), so the claim that these brothers and sisters are actually cousins (or some other relation) doesn’t jive with the context. We can also look to Matt 12:47-50 and Mark 3:31-35 where Mary is traveling with the brothers of Jesus.

In conclusion, I would say that Joseph and Mary definitely did NOT have marital relations before Jesus was born. I would also assert (based on scriptures) that Joseph and Mary DID have normal, marital relations AFTER Jesus was born. I would also point out that even if heos hu doesn’t mean there was a change, the bare word “until” doesn’t disprove the other evidence provided.
“Heos hou” and “heos” are used interchangeably and have the same meaning. (Acts 25:21) shows this “But when Paul had appealed to be kept in custody for the decision of the emperor, I commanded him to be held until (heos hou) I could send him to Caesar.”

So Paul would not be held in custody after he was “sent” to Caesar? Not according to the bible. He would be held in custody in transit (see Acts 27:1) and after he arrived (see Acts 29:16). The action did not cease with “heos hou” as you claim it does in Matt 1:25.

Why do non-Catholics continue bringing up the same refuted points over and over? Are you getting your information from tract hand outs and simply trusting that Brother Bob has done all the research for you? Will you continue using this refuted point on other, hopefully, less knowledgeable Catholics? I say that because that’s what every anti-Catholic, including myself, did so we could “save” as many poor and ignorant Catholics as possible.

The path you are on is arrogant and prideful. I know firsthand. Stop trusting your eternal salvation to others and find out for yourself brothers and sisters. Please. The “heos” vs. “heos hou” argument is another dead end for you as are every other tract line you can find. There isn’t a new point you can make that hasn’t already been refuted by Catholics in scripture. So do you submit to what God is telling you or do you continue in your pride?
 
This is an important point. We have to look back at the original Greek for “until” in Matthew 1:25, find other uses of that expression in the New Testament, and determine whether the interpretation “the phrase doesn’t imply anything about what happened later on” holds true in more than one case.

Such is the only way to settle the question once and for all, since those who object to the doctrine of St. Mary’s perpetual virginity are indifferent to citations from the early Church in its support.
I find the “bible only” school of thought to be ridiculous, laughable, and extremely simplistic. Some biblical studies suggest that human life on earth is around 6,000 years old. How can the bible cover 6,000 years, when the bible does not even have 6,000 pages in it. To make matters even worse, their bible is even shorter than our bible.
 
Has anybody considered the possibility that Mary was with child when She and Joseph were betrothed? The Bible only says that Joseph and Mary had no relations before the birth of Jesus.
 
“Heos hou” and “heos” are used interchangeably and have the same meaning. (Acts 25:21) shows this “But when Paul had appealed to be kept in custody for the decision of the emperor, I commanded him to be held until (heos hou) I could send him to Caesar.”

So Paul would not be held in custody after he was “sent” to Caesar? Not according to the bible. He would be held in custody in transit (see Acts 27:1) and after he arrived (see Acts 29:16). The action did not cease with “heos hou” as you claim it does in Matt 1:25.

Why do non-Catholics continue bringing up the same refuted points over and over? Are you getting your information from tract hand outs and simply trusting that Brother Bob has done all the research for you? Will you continue using this refuted point on other, hopefully, less knowledgeable Catholics? I say that because that’s what every anti-Catholic, including myself, did so we could “save” as many poor and ignorant Catholics as possible.

The path you are on is arrogant and prideful. I know firsthand. Stop trusting your eternal salvation to others and find out for yourself brothers and sisters. Please. The “heos” vs. “heos hou” argument is another dead end for you as are every other tract line you can find. There isn’t a new point you can make that hasn’t already been refuted by Catholics in scripture. So do you submit to what God is telling you or do you continue in your pride?
Someone from another Matthew 1:25 thread posted a link to this article which shows that Mary remained ever-virgin. I’m having problems with this one particular part of the article.

catholic-legate.com/Apologetics/MaryAndTheSaints/HeosHouPolemic/HeosHouAndProtestantPolemic.aspx

<<<<<<<<<< Before addressing Svendsen’s methodology and other relevant matters on this question, it would be beneficial first to provide a brief overview of the grammatical significance of heõs. Insofar as the parts of speech are concerned, heõs is generally a relative adverb while hou is a particle. In the construction of the phrase in question, however, until takes the character of a subordinate conjunction.
Joseph kept her a virgin – until – she gave birth to a Son.
|Main Clause| – |conjuction| – |Subordinate Clause|

As this piece will endeavor to demonstrate, the pronoun hou really has no effect on the meaning of the couplet under discussion. (In fact, as we will soon discover, not only does hou not affect the meaning of heõs, it does not even affect the meaning of synonyms for heõs either.) English equivalents of heõs hou might be translated as “until which”, “until which time”, or “until such time as”. In fact, heõs hou is simply a shorthand for the phrase heõs hou chronou en hoi – literally: “until the time when”. >>>>>>>>>>>>>

Question about the part of the article where it says: <<<<<"English equivalents of heõs hou might be translated as “until which”, “until which time”, or “until such time as”. In fact, heõs hou is simply a shorthand for the phrase heõs hou chronou en hoi – literally: “until the time when”>>>>

Doesn’t it sound like it contradicts the rest of the article, and, instead is saying that Mary lost her virginity after Jesus was born or am I misunderstanding? Help please.
 
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