Mt. 1:25 No Relations Until She Bore a Son?

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Still waiting on this alleged evidence from the early church tradition that says that the James who was the bishop of Jerusalem was not the Apostle James. I did my own search but was not able to come up with anything. Maybe someone else obtained some results???
 
Sorry about that Ink… sometimes I have the attention span of a tree frog.

From AgapeBibleStudy.Com, which has a fantastic Bible Study on the Book of James, I found this:
The most complete description of James the Bishop of Jerusalem is found in the writings of Hegesippus, a man who lived within the shadow of the Apostolic Age of the Church. Hegesippus writing between c.155-180AD (although some scholars date his writings earlier in the 2nd century), was one of the Church’s earliest chroniclers. As a Jewish Christian his view of early Christian Church history is unique since he looks at the Church from the same vantage point as the Jewish first Bishop of Jerusalem. Hegesippus seems to have traveled widely and therefore must have visited many of the apostolic churches in the Eastern and Western Roman Empire.
The majority of his work has not survived the ravages of time but what does survive gives witness to his Catholic spirit of orthodoxy and his understanding of the obligation of the New Covenant Church to carry the message of salvation beyond the people of the Old Covenant and out to the Gentile nations. His sketches of the fathers of the early Church from surviving fragments from his five books of commentaries titled The Acts of the Church are descriptive and intriguing, like his description of James, brother of the Lord and the first Bishop of Jerusalem in which he not only identifies James the brother of Jesus as the first Bishop of Jerusalem but also provides the information that James, like John the Baptist was “holy from his mother’s womb” and like John abstained from both eating meat and drinking wine: *
"James, the Lord’s brother, succeeds to the government of the Church in conjunction with the Apostles. He has been universally called ‘the Just,’ from the days of the Lord down to the present time. For many bore the name of James; but this one was holy from his mother’s womb. He drank no wine or other intoxicating liquor, nor did he eat flesh’ no razor came upon; his head; he did not anoint himself with oil, nor make use of the bath. He alone was permitted to enter the Holy Place: for he did not wear any woolen garment, but fine linen only. He alone, I say, was wont to go into the Temple: and he used to be found kneeling on his knees, begging forgiveness for the people’so that the skin of his knees became horny like that of a camel’s, by reason of his constantly bending the knee in adoration to God, and begging forgiveness for the people.
Therefore, in consequence of his pre-eminent justice, he was called the Just, and Oblias, which signifies in Greek ‘Defense of the People,’ and ‘Justice,’ in accordance with what the prophets declare concerning him" *[fragments from Hegesippus’ *Five Books of Commentaries on the Acts of the Church, Ante-Nicene Fathers,
volume 8, page 762*. *Also see: Eusebius, Church History, 2.23.5 quoted in The Early Church Fathers volume I page 79].
 
Here’s another comment from Agape Bible Study:
Constitutions *of the Holy Apostles *also called the *Apostolic Constitutions *is an ancient document that appears to be the up-dating of the first catechism, known as the Didache or *The Teaching of the Twelve Apostles. *Scholars dispute the dating of the *Didache. *Some scholars date the Didache as early as the first century, but even the scholars who do not agree to such an early dating do not date it later than the second century because quotes from the *Didache are found in the writings of the Church fathers from that period. *The *Constitutions *contain the *Didache *and additional teaching and are dated to not later than the 300’s AD’most scholars suggest the *Constitution *was a reissuing of ancient documents by the Church after the Council of Nicaea and so give the document a date of 325AD. Scholars have diverse opinions as to the author of the original ancient documents complied in the *Constitution. *There are scholars who are inclined to assign the documents to the Apostolic Age and to the great St. Clement, Bishop of Rome and successor of St. Peter [after Linus and Cletus] who was martyred sometime between 96-100AD. What is interesting about this ancient document is that it identifies St. James the Bishop of Jerusalem and St. James the Apostle, son of Alphaeus as two different men:
  • Book VIII, section III, Articles XXIV – XXVIII are all attributed to the Apostle James son of Alphaeus.Article XXIII: Concerning the Confessors’the constitution of James the son of Alphaeus. XXIII. “And I James, the son of Alphaeus, make a constitution in regard to the confessors: A confessor is not ordained; for he is so by choice and patience, and is worthy of great honor, as having confessed the same of God, and of His Christ before nations and kings. But if there be occasion, he is to be ordained either a bishop, priest, or deacon.”
  • Book VIII, section IV-V, Articles XXXV-XLVI are attributed to St. James, Bishop and “brother in the flesh” of Christ: Article XXXV concerns James instruction on evening prayer. The Constitution of James the Brother of Christ Concerning Evening Prayer: “I James, the brother of Christ according to the flesh, but His servant as the only begotten God, and one appointed bishop of Jerusalem by the Lord Himself, and the Apostles, do ordain thus: When it is evening, thou, O bishop, shalt assemble the church; and after the repetition of the psalm at the lighting up the lights, the deacon shall bid prayers for the catechumens…”
*Ante-Nicene Fathers, volume 7: Apostolic Teaching and Constitutions, *pages 493-500.
 
One thing I remember is that James, son of Alpheus was martyred in a remote territory. Tradition says that he was marytred in Syria and was bishop and founded the Syrian Church.
 
Well it appears to me that we come full circle and back to the question of whether the “brethren of Jesus” are children of Joseph by a former wife as Jerome and the Eastern church claim or cousins of Jesus as Augustine argued. As I understand it, the claim is that Alpheas is a brother of Joseph so his son James would be Jesus’ cousin in modern language but in the 1st century he would be referred to as a brother of Jesus. As I pointed out in a prior post the Greek word adelphos is used in several different ways and not all the time does it refer to sibling brothers. Jesus refers to the apostles as His brothers. Jesus calls the apostles Peter’s brothers. We know neither one of those are correct and if the strict interpretation of adelphos as meaning a sibling brother is maintained then the scriptures contain error. Since that is not possible then the strict interpretation cannot be maintained.

But back to the James boys. The Catholic encyclopedia contains this about James the Less [son of Alpheas]:

"The identity of the Apostle James (2), the son of Alpheus and James (3), the brother of the Lord and Bishop of the Church of Jerusalem (Acts 15, 21), although contested by many critics and, perhaps, not quite beyond doubt, is at least most highly probable, and by far the greater number of Catholic interpreters is considered as certain…

On the whole, although there is no full evidence for the identity of James (2), the son of Alpheus, and James (3), the brother of the Lord, and James (4), the son of Mary of Clopas, the view that one and the same person is described in the New Testament in these three different ways, is by far the most probable. There is, at any rate, very good ground (Galatians 1:19, 2:9, 2:12) for believing that the Apostle James, the son of Alpheus is the same person as James, the brother of the Lord, the well-known Bishop of Jerusalem of the Acts."

So the matter is not settled but the majority view is that James, son of Alpheas and James, ‘brother of the Lord’ are the same person. But I want to thank you for pointing that out to me as I was not aware there was an alternate opinion as to the identity of James, the brother of the Lord.
 
The word “until” means “up to that time, before a specified time.” It does not imply relations after the birth of Jesus. Greek phrase “not until” (heos hou) is a saying or phrase that only describes past events, not future events. It has nothing to do with Joseph’s relationship with Mary after she bore her Son. The word “until” is only what is done focusing on that time, without any regard to the future.

“Until” can confuse some people. Here is another example in Matthew 28:20. When Jesus says He will be with us “until” the end of the world, “until” refers to the past only; it doesn’t mean Jesus won’t be with us after the end of the world.

God Bless!
 
I’m curious about this line of reasoning.

Do you believe that God’s Word gave the Christian Church the authority to declare dogma? I would assume that Matthew 16 & 18 make that abundantly clear.
I have learned that every conversation with a catholic about his belief comes down to one thing, their translation of the bible on the athority of the church. I found a very informative website on the subject of Peter and keys. I would advise anyone to read the whole thing through! cogwriter.com/peterkeys.htm

I know I am very late with this reply, but I hope it opens someones eyes to the truth. God bless, and may the holy spirit guide us all to wisdom!
 
I have learned that every conversation with a catholic about his belief comes down to one thing, their translation of the bible on the athority of the church. I found a very informative website on the subject of Peter and keys. I would advise anyone to read the whole thing through! cogwriter.com/peterkeys.htm

I know I am very late with this reply, but I hope it opens someones eyes to the truth. God bless, and may the holy spirit guide us all to wisdom!
First of all the website, while it appears to portray the Catholic position really does not do the Catholic position any justice. It has the typical protestant ‘spin’ to it. For instance it does not mention the other biblical references for Peter’s supremacy nor does it reference the very early church [1st and 2nd century] understanding of Apostolic Succession.

Also it makes some statements such as the following:

“St. Augustine in several passages declares that the authority to bind and loose was not a purely personal gift to St. Peter, but was conferred upon him as representing the Church” (Power of the Keys. The Catholic Encyclopedia).

In reading that statement one would think that Augustine was contradicting what the Catholic Church teaches. But he is not. As the universal bishop, the pope, successor to Peter, represents the church. His binding and loosening power is therefore limited to those matters envolving faith and morals and which envolve the whole [universal] church. The website would probably get a lot of traction among protestants who know didley about Catholicism but a Catholic, knowledgeable in his faith, would see right through it.

My advice to you is if you want to know what Catholics really believe then go to the Catechism of the Catholic Church and not some protestant source. You can find a copy of the Catechism on line.
 
First of all the website, while it appears to portray the Catholic position really does not do the Catholic position any justice. It has the typical protestant ‘spin’ to it. For instance it does not mention the other biblical references for Peter’s supremacy nor does it reference the very early church [1st and 2nd century] understanding of Apostolic Succession.

Also it makes some statements such as the following:

“St. Augustine in several passages declares that the authority to bind and loose was not a purely personal gift to St. Peter, but was conferred upon him as representing the Church” (Power of the Keys. The Catholic Encyclopedia).

In reading that statement one would think that Augustine was contradicting what the Catholic Church teaches. But he is not. As the universal bishop, the pope, successor to Peter, represents the church. His binding and loosening power is therefore limited to those matters envolving faith and morals and which envolve the whole [universal] church. The website would probably get a lot of traction among protestants who know didley about Catholicism but a Catholic, knowledgeable in his faith, would see right through it.

My advice to you is if you want to know what Catholics really believe then go to the Catechism of the Catholic Church and not some protestant source. You can find a copy of the Catechism on

"Here is something from the Greek Orthodox Church on this (and they tend to have a lot of scholars with knowledge of koine Greek):

…the Rock upon whom the Church is established is Christ. *When Christ says, “Thou art Peter,” He called him “PETROS,” which means “small stone.” *But when He says, “Upon this rock I will build my Church” the Greek term for rock is not Petros but “PETRA” which means “bedrock.” * This bedrock which the Church is built upon was always understood by the Greek Fathers and many Western Fathers to mean either Christ Himself, or the profession of faith in Christ’s Divinity (Maxwell J. The Dawn. A Publication of the Diocese of the South, Orthodox Church in America, October 1998"
 
"Here is something from the Greek Orthodox Church on this (and they tend to have a lot of scholars with knowledge of koine Greek):

…the Rock upon whom the Church is established is Christ. *When Christ says, “Thou art Peter,” He called him “PETROS,” which means “small stone.” *But when He says, “Upon this rock I will build my Church” the Greek term for rock is not Petros but “PETRA” which means “bedrock.” * This bedrock which the Church is built upon was always understood by the Greek Fathers and many Western Fathers to mean either Christ Himself, or the profession of faith in Christ’s Divinity (Maxwell J. The Dawn. A Publication of the Diocese of the South, Orthodox Church in America, October 1998"
Sure… the Greek Orthodox have NO REASON to question Peter’s authority at all! 🙂

Ask your Greek expert in what century did “petros” mean “small stone”. I understood that this was true somewhere around the 6th century BC (although one Protestant “expert” claims it came back into vogue for a brief time during the 1st century… that’s a hoot!). The Bible uses “lithos” for small stones, not petros, if I remember correctly.
 
"Here is something from the Greek Orthodox Church on this (and they tend to have a lot of scholars with knowledge of koine Greek):

…the Rock upon whom the Church is established is Christ. *When Christ says, “Thou art Peter,” He called him “PETROS,” which means “small stone.” *But when He says, “Upon this rock I will build my Church” the Greek term for rock is not Petros but “PETRA” which means “bedrock.” * This bedrock which the Church is built upon was always understood by the Greek Fathers and many Western Fathers to mean either Christ Himself, or the profession of faith in Christ’s Divinity (Maxwell J. The Dawn. A Publication of the Diocese of the South, Orthodox Church in America, October 1998"
So you go from one heretical website to the schismatic Orthodox. All the while you ignore the obvious. Petros is the masculine form of Petra which is feminine in gender. Matthew cannot use the feminine form of Petra for a man’s name because Greek grammar rules require that the feminine ending, the -a, be changed to the masculine ending of -os. So petra [feminine] becomes Petros [masculine]. Note that there is no change to the root word which is petr- and there is no change in the meaning either. Petr- means rock and it matters not whether that word has a feminie ending or a masculine one. Now if you don’t believe that then I suggest you enroll in a course in Greek at you local university rather than taking my word or the word of someone else.

Let’s face the facts, if protestants and the Orthodox would ever admit that Petros did mean rock [as any course in Greek grammar will tell you] that would be tantamount to acknowledging that they were indeed wrong and that would result in a succession of corollary beliefs also being wrong and ultimately require that they convert. I submit that neither of them will do that because they lack the humility and are too puffed up by their own vanity to acknowledge their error. They lead people, like you, who are ignorant of Greek grammar into their error. Wake up and smell the incense.
 
Petros is the masculine form of Petra which is feminine in gender. Matthew cannot use the feminine form of Petra for a man’s name because Greek grammar rules require that the feminine ending, the -a, be changed to the masculine ending of -os. So petra [feminine] becomes Petros [masculine]. Note that there is no change to the root word which is petr- and there is no change in the meaning either. Petr- means rock and it matters not whether that word has a feminie ending or a masculine one. Now if you don’t believe that then I suggest you enroll in a course in Greek at you local university rather than taking my word or the word of someone else.
St. Matthew may have been obliged to change “petra” to “petros” given that the latter referred to a man, but why then didn’t he use “petros” throughout instead of muddling matters by throwing in “petra”?
Let’s face the facts, if protestants and the Orthodox would ever admit that Petros did mean rock [as any course in Greek grammar will tell you] that would be tantamount to acknowledging that they were indeed wrong and that would result in a succession of corollary beliefs also being wrong and ultimately require that they convert. I submit that neither of them will do that because they lack the humility and are too puffed up by their own vanity to acknowledge their error. They lead people, like you, who are ignorant of Greek grammar into their error. Wake up and smell the incense.
Some Protestants and Orthodox will grant the typical Catholic interpretation–that Peter is the “rock”–as valid. And such folks don’t necessarily become Catholic, because doing so would require them to accept papal supremacy as defined at Vatican I–a tough pill to swallow. 🙂
 
Quote: Originally Posted by inkaneer
Petros is the masculine form of Petra which is feminine in gender. Matthew cannot use the feminine form of Petra for a man’s name because Greek grammar rules require that the feminine ending, the -a, be changed to the masculine ending of -os. So petra [feminine] becomes Petros [masculine]. Note that there is no change to the root word which is petr- and there is no change in the meaning either. Petr- means rock and it matters not whether that word has a feminie ending or a masculine one. Now if you don’t believe that then I suggest you enroll in a course in Greek at you local university rather than taking my word or the word of someone else.
St. Matthew may have been obliged to change “petra” to “petros” given that the latter referred to a man, but why then didn’t he use “petros” throughout instead of muddling matters by throwing in “petra”?
Very simple, rules of grammar. In most, if not all languages, nouns have gender. Sometimes the gender will follow sexual lines but not so in other languages. In English a table is neuter gender but in German it is feminine gender. In German a noun’s gender is indicated by the definitive article of *die *(f), der (m) and das (n). So in German a table tafel] is die tafel. But other languages do not use a definitive article as does German. Latin as well as Greek uses different noun endings onto the root word. So the Latin word for a male who graduated from a school is alumnus and the plural would be alumni while a female graduate would be an alumna and two or more female graduates would be alumnae. In Greek the word for rock is petra and it is normally femine in gender as distinguished by the -a ending. But to use this word as a name for a man it must be masculine gender. So the root word *petr- *still means the same, rock, but the gender ending -a changes to *-os * to reflect the masculine name.

Quote:
Let’s face the facts, if protestants and the Orthodox would ever admit that Petros did mean rock [as any course in Greek grammar will tell you] that would be tantamount to acknowledging that they were indeed wrong and that would result in a succession of corollary beliefs also being wrong and ultimately require that they convert. I submit that neither of them will do that because they lack the humility and are too puffed up by their own vanity to acknowledge their error. They lead people, like you, who are ignorant of Greek grammar into their error. Wake up and smell the incense.
Some Protestants and Orthodox will grant the typical Catholic interpretation–that Peter is the “rock”–as valid. And such folks don’t necessarily become Catholic, because doing so would require them to accept papal supremacy as defined at Vatican I–a tough pill to swallow.
Not really, the first Vatican council didn’t do anything that was not in scripture except to organize it better. I am amazed that the early church had a clear understanding of the universal bishopric of Peter that is lacking in the Orthodox and Protestants. Go to the Book of Acts and look at the council of Jerusalem. The church at Antioch had a problem that they could not resolve. This problem was whether Gentiles should be circumcized into the old covenant first then baptized into the new covenant. They argued back and forth making no progress. So they went to a higher power which was the Apostles in Jerusalem. But even there, as scripture tells us, “…there was much debate”. Then Peter stands up and everyone shuts up. Peter decides the issue by relating his experience with the Gentiles where he baptized the household of Cornelius with out circumcizing them. The important thing is that when Peter spoke, the matter was settled. That was good enough for everyone including the other Apostles.

Then there is the matter in Corinth near the end of the first Century. All the Apostles are dead with the possible exception of John. Corinth has a problem which, like Antioch they cannot solve themselves. They too seek a higher power to resolve their dispute. So who do they go to? They go to Clement who is the bishop of Rome. They recognized Clement as the successor to Peter and as the one who held the office of universal bishop. Clement weighs in on the matter and the dispute dissolves. There are other examples of the early church looking to Rome for guidance and clarification but you get the idea. The first Vatican council did not pull this out of a hat like some magician’s trick. This was the way it was from the beginning.
 
Very simple, rules of grammar. In most, if not all languages, nouns have gender. Sometimes the gender will follow sexual lines but not so in other languages. In English a table is neuter gender but in German it is feminine gender. In German a noun’s gender is indicated by the definitive article of *die *(f), der (m) and das (n). So in German a table tafel] is die tafel. But other languages do not use a definitive article as does German. Latin as well as Greek uses different noun endings onto the root word. So the Latin word for a male who graduated from a school is alumnus and the plural would be alumni while a female graduate would be an alumna and two or more female graduates would be alumnae.
Thanks for those examples, But remember, I’m Canadian… 😉 and have been studying French consistently from grade five on. I know about gender all too well. 😛 Why we have “le clé” (“the key”) but “la porte” (“the door”) is beyond me.
In Greek the word for rock is petra and it is normally femine in gender as distinguished by the -a ending. But to use this word as a name for a man it must be masculine gender. So the root word *petr- *still means the same, rock, but the gender ending -a changes to *-os * to reflect the masculine name.
You’ve added an important detail by mentioning that “petra” is the usual word for “rock” in Koine. Now St. Matthew’s choice of petros-petra makes more sense than before. 🙂
Not really, the first Vatican council didn’t do anything that was not in scripture except to organize it better. I am amazed that the early church had a clear understanding of the universal bishopric of Peter that is lacking in the Orthodox and Protestants. Go to the Book of Acts and look at the council of Jerusalem. The church at Antioch had a problem that they could not resolve. This problem was whether Gentiles should be circumcized into the old covenant first then baptized into the new covenant. They argued back and forth making no progress. So they went to a higher power which was the Apostles in Jerusalem. But even there, as scripture tells us, “…there was much debate”. Then Peter stands up and everyone shuts up. Peter decides the issue by relating his experience with the Gentiles where he baptized the household of Cornelius with out circumcizing them. The important thing is that when Peter spoke, the matter was settled. That was good enough for everyone including the other Apostles.
I would offer comments on this paragraph, but don’t wish to take the thread off-topic further than it’s already drifted. 😛
Then there is the matter in Corinth near the end of the first Century. All the Apostles are dead with the possible exception of John. Corinth has a problem which, like Antioch they cannot solve themselves. They too seek a higher power to resolve their dispute. So who do they go to? They go to Clement who is the bishop of Rome. They recognized Clement as the successor to Peter and as the one who held the office of universal bishop. Clement weighs in on the matter and the dispute dissolves. There are other examples of the early church looking to Rome for guidance and clarification but you get the idea. The first Vatican council did not pull this out of a hat like some magician’s trick. This was the way it was from the beginning.
I recall you mentioned this episode to me elsewhere–it may very well have been “What is the ‘Chair of Peter’?” in the Apologetics forum. I have to do some catching up, and will reply to you in that thread. 🙂

God bless,
T.
 
Speaking of French:

Tu es Pierre, et sur cette*** pierre*** j’édifierai mon Eglise
 
“The Bible uses “lithos” for small stones, not petros, if I remember correctly.”

Yes. For example, David kills Goliath with a lithos.
 
“St. Augustine in several passages declares that the authority to bind and loose was not a purely personal gift to St. Peter…”

Nor were the key and binding & loosing authority personal gifts to Eliakim.
 
Go to the Book of Acts and look at the council of Jerusalem. The church at Antioch had a problem that they could not resolve. This problem was whether Gentiles should be circumcized into the old covenant first then baptized into the new covenant. They argued back and forth making no progress. So they went to a higher power which was the Apostles in Jerusalem. But even there, as scripture tells us, “…there was much debate”. Then Peter stands up and everyone shuts up. Peter decides the issue by relating his experience with the Gentiles where he baptized the household of Cornelius with out circumcizing them. The important thing is that when Peter spoke, the matter was settled. That was good enough for everyone including the other Apostles.
.
Actually, it says the assembly became silent as they listened to Barnabas and Paul, it doesn’t say they shut up when Peter spoke. (Acts 15:6-12). Furthermore, James speaks before the matter is ‘settled’. I’m not sure what source you’re using when you say Peter relates a story and the assembly shuts up and the matter is settled.

Secondly, Peter had formerly been erring in regard to this same type of Gentile issue. Galatians 2:11 shows Paul correcting Peter about a crucial issue at the time. In my mind, this passage alone cuts the legs right off any grounds for Papal Supremacy.
 
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