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_Abyssinia
Guest
This from Fox News Research sums up what grand jury’s are allowed to do:
Reuters is reporting that subpoena’s have been put forward in regards to the meeting that Donald Trump Jr had: reuters.com/article/us-usa-trump-russia-subpoena-idUSKBN1AJ2V0
President Trump’s attorney:
twitter.com/foxnewsresearch/status/893201380017623041Grand Juries → allows prosecutors to subpoena documents, seek witness testimony to determine if sufficient evidence of a crime exists
Reuters is reporting that subpoena’s have been put forward in regards to the meeting that Donald Trump Jr had: reuters.com/article/us-usa-trump-russia-subpoena-idUSKBN1AJ2V0
President Trump’s attorney:
twitter.com/foxnews/status/893214469513506816.@JaySekulow: “This is not a surprise b/c the impaneling of a grand jury… is typically how they move forward.”
twitter.com/foxnews/status/893214952043024385.@JaySekulow: “This goes a long way in moving the process forward.”
R
Ridgerunner
Guest
I expect Flynn will be tried and likely convicted; probably of not telling the truth on something or to somebody.
There will be people who did business with Trump sometime or other who Mueller will put the heat on to "rat out’ Trump or somebody near him. It won’t necessarily be the truth, but that’s what will happen.
Never will I forget when the FBI wanted to convict a guy around here who was running an interstate 'chop shop". The FBI threatened two guys I knew who had done business with the target, wanting them to testify against the target. One of them cooperated and the other didn’t. The one who cooperated skated completely and was never even charged. The one who didn’t went to the penitentiary and has been there for probably 20 years now.
That’s how it works.
The “target” himself was almost certainly the last stop in an operation in which others were the bigger targets. Undoubtedly the conviction was used to convince him to “rat out” some others in another state.The “target” was convicted and spent maybe three months in prison, and then opened another “rebuilder” shop in another state. I’m sure I’ll never know whether the “target” was really a target or a participant in a sting, or whether he was rewarded for ratting out others.
That’s also how it works.
Typically, feds don’t target crimes. They target people. They’re not like other law enforcement. They’ll ignore a hundred crimes in going after the guy they have targeted. They go after people and build the crime around them.
The only real question in all of this is who Mueller has decided will be the target. Might be Trump. Might just be somebody around him. But it sure won’t just be some otherwise irrelevant person they discover committed a crime along the way. Trump probably has the financial ability to defend himself. Others won’t.
There will be people who did business with Trump sometime or other who Mueller will put the heat on to "rat out’ Trump or somebody near him. It won’t necessarily be the truth, but that’s what will happen.
Never will I forget when the FBI wanted to convict a guy around here who was running an interstate 'chop shop". The FBI threatened two guys I knew who had done business with the target, wanting them to testify against the target. One of them cooperated and the other didn’t. The one who cooperated skated completely and was never even charged. The one who didn’t went to the penitentiary and has been there for probably 20 years now.
That’s how it works.
The “target” himself was almost certainly the last stop in an operation in which others were the bigger targets. Undoubtedly the conviction was used to convince him to “rat out” some others in another state.The “target” was convicted and spent maybe three months in prison, and then opened another “rebuilder” shop in another state. I’m sure I’ll never know whether the “target” was really a target or a participant in a sting, or whether he was rewarded for ratting out others.
That’s also how it works.
Typically, feds don’t target crimes. They target people. They’re not like other law enforcement. They’ll ignore a hundred crimes in going after the guy they have targeted. They go after people and build the crime around them.
The only real question in all of this is who Mueller has decided will be the target. Might be Trump. Might just be somebody around him. But it sure won’t just be some otherwise irrelevant person they discover committed a crime along the way. Trump probably has the financial ability to defend himself. Others won’t.
D
DignumEtJustum
Guest
My goodness… a few people met with John Denver’s 1980s publicist who happened to be a Russian national… oh the humanity! Let’s make sure Trump is impeached!
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gracepoole
Guest
I love the BBC production of I, Claudius from the 70’s. In it, Emperor Claudius offers this gem: “Let all the poisons that lurk in the mud hatch out.” If indeed there are poisons lurking about in the administration – particularly with respect to hostile foreign nations – let them hatch out, for the sake of the country. If none are to be found, then that’s that and I will readily embrace the calm that comes.My goodness… a few people met with John Denver’s 1980s publicist who happened to be a Russian national… oh the humanity! Let’s make sure Trump is impeached!
The appointment of yet another grand jury certainly seems to indicate that the investigation isn’t slowing down. If anything, it seems to be ramping up.
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DignumEtJustum
Guest
The purpose of a Grand Jury is to decide if the evidence thus-far is enough to proceed to prosecution. I expect this to be the end of the road for the grasping-at-straws Russia nothingburger.I love the BBC production of I, Claudius from the 70’s. In it, Emperor Claudius offers this gem: “Let all the poisons that lurk in the mud hatch out.” If indeed there are poisons lurking about in the administration – particularly with respect to hostile foreign nations – let them hatch out, for the sake of the country. If none are to be found, then that’s that and I will readily embrace the calm that comes.
The appointment of yet another grand jury certainly seems to indicate that the investigation isn’t slowing down. If anything, it seems to be ramping up.
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gracepoole
Guest
I might have been inclined to agree with you that we’re nearing the end of the road if this had been an extension of the Flynn-related grand jury. It’s not. It’s a new grand jury that’s investigating more and other than.The purpose of a Grand Jury is to decide if the evidence thus-far is enough to proceed to prosecution. I expect this to be the end of the road for the grasping-at-straws Russia nothingburger.
M
Marie5890
Guest
It also has more power to force people to testify and supeana power…I might have been inclined to agree with you that we’re nearing the end of the road if this had been an extension of the Flynn-related grand jury. It’s not. It’s a new grand jury that’s investigating more and other than.
It would be foolish to take this new grand jury lightly.
R
Ridgerunner
Guest
Oh no. That’s not how these things work. Somebody will be indicted. Probably not Trump, Jr or Kushner because they have the money to fight it until heck freezes over. But somebody is going to fry. No question about it. Even if it’s a "perjury trap’ charge or a “lied to the investigator” charge, somebody is going to get charged. It could even be some peripheral person who happened to do business with Trump sometime or other.The purpose of a Grand Jury is to decide if the evidence thus-far is enough to proceed to prosecution. I expect this to be the end of the road for the grasping-at-straws Russia nothingburger.
But they don’t spend millions and lots of publicity to come up with nobody charged. That has never happened in previous deals like this, and it never will. Spend enough money and hire enough talented lawyers, and somebody goes to jail, particularly someone who doesn’t have the money to hire 25 lawyers at $2000/hour.
No ordinary human of ordinary means can fight off the government if it’s determined and has unlimited resources.
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Ridgerunner
Guest
It also has the power to intimidate people into saying what they want them to say.It also has more power to force people to testify and supeana power…
It would be foolish to take this new grand jury lightly.
D
DignumEtJustum
Guest
Fry for what? Is it illegal to meet with a Russian? This is all just a big distraction as it was really Hillary that colluded with Russia. Don’t believe me? Oh well. There’s about as much evidence to my claims as there is to what’s being claimed on the other side.Oh no. That’s not how these things work. Somebody will be indicted. Probably not Trump, Jr or Kushner because they have the money to fight it until heck freezes over. But somebody is going to fry. No question about it. Even if it’s a "perjury trap’ charge or a “lied to the investigator” charge, somebody is going to get charged. It could even be some peripheral person who happened to do business with Trump sometime or other.
But they don’t spend millions and lots of publicity to come up with nobody charged. That has never happened in previous deals like this, and it never will. Spend enough money and hire enough talented lawyers, and somebody goes to jail, particularly someone who doesn’t have the money to hire 25 lawyers at $2000/hour.
No ordinary human of ordinary means can fight off the government if it’s determined and has unlimited resources.
L
lmachine
Guest
The other side has the benefit of knowing members of the Trump campaign attempted to explicitly collude with a foreign power to influence the election.This is all just a big distraction as it was really Hillary that colluded with Russia. Don’t believe me? Oh well. There’s about as much evidence to my claims as there is to what’s being claimed on the other side.
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Reuben_J
Guest
Grand juries in the federal justice system typically sit for up to 18 months but there is no indication of how long the Mueller probe could last.The purpose of a Grand Jury is to decide if the evidence thus-far is enough to proceed to prosecution. I expect this to be the end of the road for the grasping-at-straws Russia nothingburger.
The White House’s statement was that they favor anything that accelerates the conclusion of his work fairly and thus committed to fully cooperating with Mueller.
However, special counsel investigations can proceed for years, and there has been no indication from Mueller or his team about how long the Russia probe could take to unfold.
If it drags on, then it ensures news media to get their hands full of juicy news and something to distract the Trump’s administration until the next election.
Mueller’s team is staffed by Democrats and a protracted investigation would surely do them no harm.
M
Marie5890
Guest
It is not illegal to meet with a Russian.Fry for what? Is it illegal to meet with a Russian? This is all just a big distraction as it was really Hillary that colluded with Russia. Don’t believe me? Oh well. There’s about as much evidence to my claims as there is to what’s being claimed on the other side.
It is illegal to lie to federal investigators. It’s a felony.
It’s the old problem so many down this road have hit. The cover-up is the problem, not the original act.
D
DignumEtJustum
Guest
What “foreign power;” John Denver’s 1980s publicist to Australia who happened to be a Russian? I’m confused.The other side has the benefit of knowing members of the Trump campaign attempted to explicitly collude with a foreign power to influence the election.
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gracepoole
Guest
I think a real question that’s outstanding is whether Mueller will last or whether he’ll be fired…Grand juries in the federal justice system typically sit for up to 18 months but there is no indication of how long the Mueller probe could last.
The White House’s statement was that they favor anything that accelerates the conclusion of his work fairly and thus committed to fully cooperating with Mueller.
However, special counsel investigations can proceed for years, and there has been no indication from Mueller or his team about how long the Russia probe could take to unfold.
If it drags on, then it ensures news media to get their hands full of juicy news and something to distract the Trump’s administration until the next election.
Mueller’s team is staffed by Democrats and a protracted investigation would surely do them no harm.
R
Reuben_J
Guest
The investigation is on whether there was collusion.It is not illegal to meet with a Russian.
It is illegal to lie to federal investigators. It’s a felony.
It’s the old problem so many down this road have hit. The cover-up is the problem, not the original act.
There were lots of meetings but when they had nothing to do with collusion, they might not want to talk about them.
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Reuben_J
Guest
Well, if that is your focus, sure.I think a real question that’s outstanding is whether Mueller will last or whether he’ll be fired…
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gracepoole
Guest
My focus? No. But my focus doesn’t matter. It’s the focus of the president and the special counsel that matter.Well, if that is your focus, sure.
M
Marie5890
Guest
True.The investigation is on whether there was collusion.
There were lots of meetings but when they had nothing to do with collusion, they might not want to talk about them.
But that doesn’t preclude people for being indicted on other charges.
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