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inJESUS
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The answer to both is : logic or no logic it must be corrupt and Allah knows best.
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Reuben_J
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Joseph_Alison
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Salaam InJESUS;Here are some quotes taken from NT and found in islamic scriptures :
But as it is written: “What eye has not seen, and ear has not heard, and what has not entered the human heart, what God has prepared for those who love him,” (1 Corinthians 2:9)
Narrated Abu Huraira:
The Prophet said, “ALLAH SAID, ‘I have prepared for My righteous slaves (such excellent things)
as no eye has ever seen, nor an ear has ever heard nor a human heart can ever think of.’”
(Sahih Al-Bukhari, Volume 9, Book 93, Number 589)
yes, Allah is quoting Paul the “liar” according the Muslims
The verse you quoted (1 Cor 2:9) starts with: " But as it is written:…", which means that Paul, in his own words, is aknowledging that he is quoting from a written source, meaning that what he wrote were not his own words, but the words of someone else; therefore your statement that Muhammed is quoting Paul is wrong; at best you can say that Muhammed and Paul quoted the same source, but this is not the case.
Do you know what Paul quoted? Or did he quote something which was lost?
If Paul quoted from something which was lost and as you believe that Paul says the truth, meaning that what he quoted is the truth and what he quoted from is the truth as well, I conclude that you don’t have the whole truth, because some of it (which Paul quoted from) was lost.
It is evident that God in a way or another informed His creation, through His messengers, about what He prepared to the ones who believe in Him and worship Him; it is part of the unseen to us, no one can have its knowledge without a divine inspiration. Do you think that Paul got a divine inspiration to quote someone else? If your answer is yes, guess what will be our answer about the origin of the Hadith which you quoted
The number of prayers the Noble Prophet (PBUH) and Allah (SWT) taugh us is tremendous and addresses almost every situation in our lives. Imam Ghazali wrote an entire book (174 pages) full of supplications, prayers and invocations drawn from the Qur’an and Sunnah."This is how you are to pray: Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name, your kingdom come, your will be done, on earth as in heaven. Give us today our daily bread; and forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors;
and do not subject us to the final test, 10 but deliver us from the evil one. Matthew 6:9-13
An introduction to the book: “A revised edition of Kojiro Nakamura’s acclaimed translation into English of Book IX of The Revival of the Religious Sciences (Ihya’ ‘Ulum al-Din). Although prayerfulness and the remembrance of God suffuse all the formal practices of Islam, there are times when the Muslim simply ‘sits alone with his Lord’ to repeat formulas drawn from the Qur’an and the sayings of the Prophet, seeking remission of his sins and the purification of his heart. The present volume is probably the most widely read compendium of such material, popular not only for its comprehensiveness and beauty, but also for the analytical approach of its author, who explores the psychological and spiritual effects of prayer and the celebration of God’s name. The original translation by Kojiro Nakamura, now Head of the Islamic Studies Department at the University of Tokyo, has been substantially revised and augmented with hadith identification” But never mind, it is all plagiarized material
SourceSalaam.
Joseph.
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Angelos
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Hi JosephSalaam InJESUS;
The verse you quoted (1 Cor 2:9) starts with: " But as it is written:…", which means that Paul, in his own words, is aknowledging that he is quoting from a written source, meaning that what he wrote were not his own words, but the words of someone else; therefore your statement that Muhammed is quoting Paul is wrong; at best you can say that Muhammed and Paul quoted the same source, but this is not the case.
Do you know what Paul quoted? Or did he quote something which was lost?
If Paul quoted from something which was lost and as you believe that Paul says the truth, meaning that what he quoted is the truth and what he quoted from is the truth as well, I conclude that you don’t have the whole truth, because some of it (which Paul quoted from) was lost.
It is evident that God in a way or another informed His creation, through His messengers, about what He prepared to the ones who believe in Him and worship Him; it is part of the unseen to us, no one can have its knowledge without a divine inspiration. Do you think that Paul got a divine inspiration to quote someone else? If your answer is yes, guess what will be our answer about the origin of the Hadith which you quoted
Salaam.
Joseph.
(good to see you here!)You are partly right in your response to my dear brother inJESUS! It is apparent that Paul quoted from the Old Testament while writing that verse (2: 9) in His first letter to the Corinthians. Please read the original text apostle Paul quoted from:
Isaiah 64:4 Since ancient times no one has heard or perceived, no eye has seen any God besides you, who intervenes for those who wait for him.
Thus, the text Paul was referring to had not been lost! After correcting your false presumption, now it is time to focus on Paul’s remarks. Originally, the verse above belongs to the book of prophet Isaiah, but Paul reformulates it from a totally Christian perspective to highlight the concept of salvation and link Lord Jesus’ saving death to God’s wisdom. It was natural for apostle Paul to reveal such amazing relations between the Old Testament prophecies and the major events occurring in Lord Jesus’ life as the best theologian called by Christ and empowered by the Spirit to give testimony to the Gospel.
Since the hadith in question is almost identical in form and theme with the quotation in the Pauline epistle rather than with its original form and primary context in Isaiah 64:4, it is possible for us Christians to state that some scribes of Mohammed bin Abdallah copied from the New Testament writings.
Paul needed the text (Old Testament) to quote from as well as He needed divine inspiration to discover and proclaim the mysteries of Christ His Lord for the sake of the Gospel!
Essalamu aleykum min Rab Yesuwa’l Masih
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inJESUS
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Thank you Angelos you were quicker in other words, Muhammad plagiarized Paul the “liar” 
you were quicker in other words, Muhammad plagiarized Paul the “liar”
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Joseph_Alison
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Salaam Angelos;
1- Paul said “But as it is written…” meaning that he simply reported what he has read somewhere else. Or in Isaiah 64:4, nowhere you will find “… neither have entered into the heart of man…” which Paul supposedly found written; this statement simply does not exist in Isaiah 64:4: “For since the beginning of the world men have not heard, nor perceived by the ear, neither hath the eye seen, O God, beside thee, what he hath prepared for him that waiteth for him”
2- Isaiah is obviously talking about things which exist in Paradise and which God prepared for the righteous. Isaiah stated the obvious, no one beside God has seen Paradise, but Paul is saying: “But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him….But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit…” (1 Cor 2:9-10). We have two options here: First, the hidden things Isaiah talked about are no more hidden as Paul stated but were revealed “into us”, and I ask you to show me where. Second, the things Isaiah talked about and the things Paul talked about are different and I also ask you to tell me what are the things Paul said were hidden then revealed by the spirit of God?
“Now no person knows what delights of the eye are kept hidden (in reserve) for them - as a reward for their (good) deeds”. (Noble Qur’an 032.017)
Salaam al’a mani’taba’a alhuda. (Peace on him who follows the right path)
Joseph.
I have considered Isaiah and I found out that Paul could not have quoted Isaiah for two reasons:
1- Paul said “But as it is written…” meaning that he simply reported what he has read somewhere else. Or in Isaiah 64:4, nowhere you will find “… neither have entered into the heart of man…” which Paul supposedly found written; this statement simply does not exist in Isaiah 64:4: “For since the beginning of the world men have not heard, nor perceived by the ear, neither hath the eye seen, O God, beside thee, what he hath prepared for him that waiteth for him”
2- Isaiah is obviously talking about things which exist in Paradise and which God prepared for the righteous. Isaiah stated the obvious, no one beside God has seen Paradise, but Paul is saying: “But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him….But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit…” (1 Cor 2:9-10). We have two options here: First, the hidden things Isaiah talked about are no more hidden as Paul stated but were revealed “into us”, and I ask you to show me where. Second, the things Isaiah talked about and the things Paul talked about are different and I also ask you to tell me what are the things Paul said were hidden then revealed by the spirit of God?
We did it above.
Wow, Angelos! This is exactly how missionaries talk to distort the obvious and brainwash the mass, but you are not supposed to be one, you are my “former” Muslim Brother.
Muhammad (PBUH) stated things about Paradise; we are yet to see what God has prepared for His righteous servants. As for Paul, he was talking about something else, and I am asking you to tell me what are the things that besides God, and since the beginning of time, not an eye has seen, not an ear has heard but Paul said has been “revealed into us”!
“Now no person knows what delights of the eye are kept hidden (in reserve) for them - as a reward for their (good) deeds”. (Noble Qur’an 032.017)
Salaam al’a mani’taba’a alhuda. (Peace on him who follows the right path)
Joseph.
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Chris_LaRock
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Let’s see…Paul went from killing people in the name of God to being a Christian Apostle and wrote most of the New Testament.Heheh, as I cannot think of how else they (Muslims) can defend the discrepancy or rather Mohammad plagiarizing the Bible.
Do you have any idea why they hate Paul so much?
I think this all means something…
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Angelos
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You seem to be asking those questions solely because you have not read apostle Paul’s quotation in its context
Paul definitely refers to Isaiah 64:4 although you fail to understand the association He makes between that certain verse and His chapter in 1 Corinthians on the basis of Lord Jesus’ saving death and its foreknowledge by God. Paul emphasizes that salvation through the cross was God’s plan and the sign of His wisdom:1 Corinthians 2:4-10 My conversation and my preaching were not with persuasive words of wisdom, but with a demonstration of the Spirit and of power, so that your faith would not be based on *human wisdom *but on the power of God. Now we do speak wisdom among the mature, but not a wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are perishing. Instead we speak the wisdom of God, hidden in a mystery, that God determined before the ages for our glory. None of the rulers of this age understood it. If they had known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. But just as it is written, “Things that no eye has seen, or ear heard, or mind imagined, are the things God has prepared for those who love him.” God has revealed these to us by the Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God.
Although you claim the opposite (because you hate the idea that one of Paul’s citations be found in Islamic tradition with no modification in form or context!), apostle Paul absolutely refers to Isaiah 64:4 along with the modification of some verbs and addition of some nouns. Still, Paul feels free to do this since Isaiah generally refers to the abilities of “hearing, seeing, and understanding” while alluding to the comprehension of divine mysteries:
Isaiah 6:10 Make the hearts of these people calloused;make their ears deaf and their eyes blind! Otherwise they might see with their eyes and hear with their ears, their hearts might understand and they might repent and be healed.
Wow Joseph! This is exactly how devout Muslims talk to conceal the truth and deceive the Muslim mass! This is exactly how Muslims furtively change the topic whenever they are unable to defend their scripture. You are not different from that group of people as remaining “a Muslim brother” of mineWow, Angelos! This is exactly how missionaries talk to distort the obvious and brainwash the mass, but you are not supposed to be one, you are my “former” Muslim Brother.
to be continued…
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Angelos
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You must study the New Testament to understand what Paul was talking about. Listen to how our loving Lord confirmed Paul’s message:
Luke 10:21 On that same occasion Jesus rejoiced in the Holy Spirit and said, “I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and intelligent, and **revealed them **to little children. Yes, Father, for this was your gracious will.
Matthew 13:16-17 “But your eyes are blessed because they see, and your ears because they hear. For I tell you the truth, *many prophets and righteous people *longed to see what you see but did not see it, and to hear what you hear but did not hear it.
John 16:13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth.
Here is the full context of the Quran verse you have quoted, but it is somehow different in form:
32: 15-17. Only those believe in Our revelations who, when they are reminded of them, fall down prostrate and hymn the praise of their Lord, and they are not scornful, Who forsake their beds to cry unto their Lord in fear and hope, and spend of that We have bestowed on them. **No soul knoweth what is kept hid for them of joy, as a reward for what they used to do. ** (Pickthall)
The plural pronoun “them” does not refer to all righteous people!
More, the Quran describes in details what kind of rewards the ones entering the Garden will receive! Thus, there’s nothing hidden in the Quran about the joy awaiting the righteous as well as the punishment prepared for the evildoers.I can see no mystery standing for God’s wisdom in the above verse.
Salaam to those seeking the truth and wisdom. AMEN
Angelos N.
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inJESUS
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indeed, the Quran and ahadiths are full of explicit descriptions of janna with it’s houri and wine and milk and what have you so where is the mystery?32: 15-17. Only those believe in Our revelations who, when they are reminded of them, fall down prostrate and hymn the praise of their Lord, and they are not scornful, Who forsake their beds to cry unto their Lord in fear and hope, and spend of that We have bestowed on them. **No soul knoweth what is kept hid for them of joy, as a reward for what they used to do. ** (Pickthall)
The plural pronoun “them” does not refer to all righteous people!
I can see no mystery standing for God’s wisdom in the above verse.
Salaam to those seeking the truth and wisdom. AMEN
Angelos N.
Besides, what does paradise have to do with what Isaiah or Paul were saying? Muhammad plagiarized Paul and put it in a different context , either not understanding both Isaiah and Paul, or just plagiarizing and changing context to suit his idea. I guess Muhammad didn’t understand what Paul was talking about. Anyway, it’s not the first time Muhammad got things wrong
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Joseph_Alison
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I am not like you my “former” Brother who changed his religion and found the time to study and become a scholar of the new testament and probably the old as well
So the things which not an eye has seen, not an ear has heard and which did not penetrate the heart are known by little children! but Angelos, Paul said " But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit…” (1 Cor 2:10), unto us, is not little children!
Anyway, according to you, Paul was not talking about Paradise, but Muhammed (PBUH) was : " “Sahl b. Sa’d as-Sa’idi reported: I was in the company of Allah’s Messenger (PBUH) that he gave a description of Paradise and then Allah’s Apostle (PBUH) concluded with these words: There would be bounties which the eye has not seen and the ear has not heard and no human heart has ever perceived them. He then recited this verse:" They forsake (their) beds, calling upon their Lord in fear and in hope, and spend out of what We have given them. So no soul knows what refreshment of the eyes is hidden for them: a reward for what they did" (Noble Qur’an 32:16-17) (Sahih Muslim Book 040, Number 6783)
The context was shown by the Hadith above.
Anyway, according to you Paul was talking about something (which was revealed to the little children
) other than Paradise. The Noble Prophet described Paradise and ended his description by a statement from Allah (SWT) simply saying that there is in Paradise things which we never expected in this life on Earth. Note that you can always claim what sweet your desire.There are many other hadiths with the same statement in Musnad Ahmad, in Kanz Al Umal by Al Mukati Al Hindi etc. and all about Paradise. I have them in Arabic and If I find an English translation, I will post it.
Thank you for the compliment. A side note: there is a level when discussion becomes a waste of time, I know what that level is and I quit; it does not prevent me from having a good sleep if you or somene else thinks he won the debate.
I am far from being a shcolar and I never claimed to be one, so don’t take my shortcomings are a weakness from me to defend my scripture and anyway, I never felt the compelling need to defend it. Also, people have real lives, they cannot commit all the time to threads and discussions. Also, you have set the stakes very high for yourself when in your first post you said that " I don’t know what Muslims scholars will think of my analysis" or something similar. This mindset is very telling to me, and it is telling me that you will never stop no matter how, so I do it.
Take care brother.
Salaam.
Joseph.
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Chris_LaRock
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“Little children” is figurative for those who are not corrupted by the world and are humble. Children have no prejudices or ego.
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inJESUS
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Salaam Joseph, am sure Angelos will reply God willing, but am pretty sure also that he knows that Muhammad quoted Paul and put it in a paradise context. You even did the same mistake by thinking that either Isaiah or Paul was talking about paradise.It’s easy to hear such sentence and think it’s about paradise and Muhammad, once more, got things wrong. And as Chris said, little children does not mean 5 years old kids, it’s about the heart, not age.
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Joseph_Alison
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Just to let you know that I found the picture you added into your signature deeply offending, I can’t even put my eyes on it. That is why I skip your posts. You know how we Muslims fordib portraying Prophets.
I quote the KJV: “For since the beginning of the world men have not heard, nor perceived by the ear, neither hath the eye seen, O God, beside thee, what he hath prepared for him that waiteth for him” .(IS 64:4)
KJV leaves no doubt that the subject is Paradise.
Besides, you can claim whatever sweets you soft heart; nothing would change.
Similar claim as the one you brought was made during Muhammad’s (PBUH) lifetime :
"We know indeed that they say, “It is a man that teaches him.” The tongue of him they wickedly point to is notably foreign, while this is Arabic, pure and clear.( Noble Qur’an 016:103)
Salaam.
Joseph.
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inJESUS
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inJESUS
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btw Joseph, it’s not only about prophets. Muhammad was offended by any picture, be it a thing, an animal or a person because Allah on the judgment day will ask the painter to bring life into what he draw! i guess you are offended even walking on the street with all the ads? you are offended by any internet site with pictures? you hate paintings? you don’t have family pictures?
Sahih Muslim vol.3 no.5268 says, "Ibn ‘Umar reported Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) having said: Those who paint pictures would be punished on the Day of Resurrection and it would be said to them: Breathe soul into what you have created
Sahih Muslim vol.3 no.5271 ‘Verily the most grievously tormented people amongst the denizens [inhabitants] of Hell on the Day of Resurrection would be the painters of pictures
Narrated ‘Aisha, the mother of the faithful believers: I bought a cushion with pictures on it. When Allah’s Apostle saw it, he kept standing at the door and did not enter the house. I noticed the sign of disgust on his face, so I said, “O Allah’s Apostle (Please let me know) what sin I have done.” Allah’s Apostle said, “What about this cushion?” I replied, “I bought it for you to sit and recline on.” Allah’s Apostle said, “The painters (i.e. owners) of these pictures will be punished on the Day of Resurrection. It will be said to them, ‘Put life in what you have created (.i.e. painted).’” The Prophet added, “The angels do not enter a house where there are pictures.” Bukhari vol.3 book 34 no.318
“Narrated ‘Aisha: The Prophet entered upon me while there was a curtain having pictures (of animals) in the house. His face got red with anger, and then he got hold of the curtain and tore it into pieces. The Prophet said, ‘Such people as paint these pictures will receive the severest punishment on the Day of Resurrection.’” Bukhari vol.8 book 73 no.130
Muslims must be offended by anything painted,i guess.
Sahih Muslim vol.3 no.5268 says, "Ibn ‘Umar reported Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) having said: Those who paint pictures would be punished on the Day of Resurrection and it would be said to them: Breathe soul into what you have created
Sahih Muslim vol.3 no.5271 ‘Verily the most grievously tormented people amongst the denizens [inhabitants] of Hell on the Day of Resurrection would be the painters of pictures
Narrated ‘Aisha, the mother of the faithful believers: I bought a cushion with pictures on it. When Allah’s Apostle saw it, he kept standing at the door and did not enter the house. I noticed the sign of disgust on his face, so I said, “O Allah’s Apostle (Please let me know) what sin I have done.” Allah’s Apostle said, “What about this cushion?” I replied, “I bought it for you to sit and recline on.” Allah’s Apostle said, “The painters (i.e. owners) of these pictures will be punished on the Day of Resurrection. It will be said to them, ‘Put life in what you have created (.i.e. painted).’” The Prophet added, “The angels do not enter a house where there are pictures.” Bukhari vol.3 book 34 no.318
“Narrated ‘Aisha: The Prophet entered upon me while there was a curtain having pictures (of animals) in the house. His face got red with anger, and then he got hold of the curtain and tore it into pieces. The Prophet said, ‘Such people as paint these pictures will receive the severest punishment on the Day of Resurrection.’” Bukhari vol.8 book 73 no.130
Muslims must be offended by anything painted,i guess.
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Angelos
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I wish my conversion had not impeded you from calling me a brother of yours! Anyway, thanks for the compliments. I boast in the Lord always for the things He has granted to me.I am not like you my “former” Brother who changed his religion and found the time to study and become a scholar of the new testament and probably the old as well
You must be kidding! Or is it also a part of the Islamic tradition to make jokes in Christmas season?
If you are serious, let me remind you that every believer in Christianity is a newborn infant through baptism:1 Peter 2:2 Yearn like **newborn infants **for pure, spiritual milk, so that by it you may grow up to salvation…
More, it is our Savior’s will that we all be childlike:
Mark 10:15 I tell you the truth, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like **a child **will never enter it.”
What I still fail to understand - even if you bring up a thousand of hadiths - is that the Quran is replete with verses giving the vivid descriptions of Paradise and Hell. What could those unknown or unseen rewards be then? The only thing I can make out of your reference is that the hadith has a part originally belonging to the Quran.That verse somehow dropped from the Quran and sneaked into a Hadith
But your noble prophet used the same words apostle Paul used in the New Testament! The context is definitely different, but the sentence structure is amazingly identical! And your noble messenger attributes that sentence to Allah in the same way as Paul doesAnyway, according to you Paul was talking about something (which was revealed to the little children
What a coincidence indeed…Good that you remember what I wrote in my first post: this indicates u still love me as a brother of yours. I feel exactly the same. But I never claim to have high standards! That remark of mine was by no means ironic! I really wondered how they would react to my ideas.Thank you for the compliment. A side note: there is a level when discussion becomes a waste of time, I know what that level is and I quit; it does not prevent me from having a good sleep if you or somene else thinks he won the debate.
I am far from being a shcolar and I never claimed to be one, so don’t take my shortcomings are a weakness from me to defend my scripture and anyway, I never felt the compelling need to defend it. Also, people have real lives, they cannot commit all the time to threads and discussions. Also, you have set the stakes very high for yourself when in your first post you said that " I don’t know what Muslims scholars will think of my analysis" or something similar. This mindset is very telling to me, and it is telling me that you will never stop no matter how, so I do it.
I would not like you to stop writing posts. I am proud of your Islamic voice and maturity here. All the best!
Salaam and peace,
Angelos N.
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lightofeyes
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Peace be upon you all,
What Christians failed to understand is that we believe in the true teachings of Jesus (pbuh) as a prophet of Allah, he taught the same message that Muhammad (pbuh) taught, to worship Allah alone without any partner. as we believe in the all previous Prophets. the original bible has been corrupted by men but you can find some uncorrupted verses, people have mixed Allah’s words with man’s words. its enough to reject the whole book if there is a single verse corrupted.
I can show you hundreds biblical verses say that Jesus denied that he God.
That’s why Allah sent the prophet Muhammad (pbuh) to be the last prophet and the Quran and he guarantee it from corruption.
Christians failed to understand this and just keep arguing………
Peace.
What Christians failed to understand is that we believe in the true teachings of Jesus (pbuh) as a prophet of Allah, he taught the same message that Muhammad (pbuh) taught, to worship Allah alone without any partner. as we believe in the all previous Prophets. the original bible has been corrupted by men but you can find some uncorrupted verses, people have mixed Allah’s words with man’s words. its enough to reject the whole book if there is a single verse corrupted.
I can show you hundreds biblical verses say that Jesus denied that he God.
That’s why Allah sent the prophet Muhammad (pbuh) to be the last prophet and the Quran and he guarantee it from corruption.
Christians failed to understand this and just keep arguing………
Peace.
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Angelos
Guest
Indeed inJESUS, Isaiah is talking about salvation rather than Paradise. This is why He uses the word “wait” while referring to God’s people. To comprehend the full context of Isaiah’s prophecy:
Isaiah 64: 1-5 If only you would tear apart the sky and come down! The mountains would tremble before you! As when fire ignites dry wood, or fire makes water boil, let your adversaries know who you are, and may the nations shake at your presence! When you performed awesome deeds that took us by surprise, you came down, and the mountains trembled before you.Since ancient times no one has heard or perceived, no eye has seen any God besides you, who intervenes for those who wait for him.You assist those who delight in doing what is right,who observe your commandments.Look, you were angry because we violated them continually. How then can we be saved?
This chapter has nothing to do with the rewards in Paradise. Actually, the notion of salvation and entering the Kingdom of Heaven had not been fully comprehended until our Lord’s manifestation to mankind. This is why most of the prophecies in the OT are concerned with the Messiah and the redemption He will bring to His beloved, not with Paradise.
Peace & blessings,
Angelos N.
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