Muhammad (pbuh), the Last Prophet

[BelFarfalla]

Khalfan, what country do you live in?

There wasn’t any beating. She was lying about the beating. That assumption can be made since she was clearly lying about abdu-rahman’s impotence. Prophet (pbuh) could understand her lie. Even I can understand that lie. But not you.

You understand her as lying because you think it excuses what her husband did to her and the horrible injustice Muhammad forced on her. The fact is that her husband beat her. Muhammad’s decision was abusive.

The decision could be made upon the claims and evidence. He said he ‘need’ her. Prophet (pbuh) was not allowed to go to their bedroom.

Nowhere in the hadith does did the husband say that he ‘need’ her. The only thing that seemed to matter to the ‘prophet’ is the man’s right to force sex on his wife. And force it would be because she clearly had been hurt by him and did not want anything more to do with this abusive man.

A mark can be made of some ink. I respect my mother 3 times more than I respect my father. But I can’t support her if she lie.

Unbelievable. Do you really think that the people around Muhammad had green ink?

You may respect your mother. But you do not respect women at large. This is obvious from you take on this situation.

That is why Prophet (pbuh) said, “‘IF’ that is your intention…” if it was not her intention, she was not supposed make the claim of impotence. Only the reason of beating could win her divorce.

Oh I thought that you said that in Islam women have equal rights. A muslim man has the right to divorce a man without giving any reason. Now you are saying that she could only divorce him if he beat her? Make up your mind. Obviously this poor woman had almost no rights and her husband has all the rights, including the right to beat her.

I gave the reasons already. read it again.

Yes, you said that her husband has sexual rights to her. So she cannot leave him until she gives him sex after he beats her. That is ill, very ill.

They already have that. My wife beats me even after I never beat her. Because I know, it is out of love and affection. You wont understand that.

You are right that I would not understand… and I don’t believe you. This is sick.

Were you there?

No and neither were you. I am going solely on the events as presented. You are adding all sorts of assumptions so that the husband looks like the victim and to justify and horrible decision by Muahmmad. He was not a wise man… I’ve read many bad decisions he made. Again the woman never says that she wanted to remarry Rifaa. Her abusive husband used this story as an excuse to justify his abuse and his impotency.

Where did you get the exact old of those children? Why would prophet (pbuh) ask “is that your children?” prophet (pbuh) wanted to know if he is really impotent as she said. He had another wife too.
Since pregnancy takes nine months. We know that it was at least 9 months since they were conceived. It is most probable that the two children are not twins so now we have 18 months at the very least for pregnancy. Since their mother mostly likely nursed the boys (she could not use formula form the story) she most likely nursed them for several months to several years.

Hence if he was carrying two infant twin boys, then the earliest they could be was new born… and so it was at least 9 months ago that the boys could prove potency. If they are not twins then the oldest was at least year or more old.

(continued below)

 

[BelFarfalla]

(continued from above)

Prophet (pbuh) knew both of them and how long they were been married.

Unless it had been only a few minutes, then is issue here is not that the husband did not get to collect his right to use her like a field. Plus this does not matter. He beat her. Even if he never has sex with her… he should loose his rights.

I love my Mom. I have two sisters. I love my wife. And I have two daughters. I think you need their comment on me.

You showed what you think of women in general in your replies.

He gave the actual cause why she wanted to divorce him.

The woman never stated that she wanted a divorce. Her husband said something and we do not know if it was true. I can understand however if she wanted to leave a brutal man.

The truth is, you went to wrong hadees to prove your allegation. There are many other instance where prophet (pbuh) favoured woman for their cause. You may find that in the same hadees books.

This one show that wife beating is allowed. Your explanation of it show how Muslim men really believe in their hearts. The Qur’an says it is allowed. What other proof is needed?

There are many who understand the truth and come to Islam.

I understand the truth. Some of Islam is good as it borrows from Judaism and Christianity. But there are specific issues; wife beating is one of them. That prevents me from ever even considering leaving. I have talked too many who have converted to Islam who were lied to about this topic and many others.
Most people in the west who convert to island leave before 5 years… because they find out the things that their recruiters lied to them about or forgot to tell them.

 

[Verisimilitude]

Scrutiny of Islam has led me to conclude that Muhammed’s first impression was the right one: it was a demon in that cave.

Very true. First impressions say a lot.

 

[Khalfan]

This response is pathetic.

This is exactly why we must protect our country from every having Shri’ah law.

you understood what I said.

Is this supposed to be some sort of joke? Not funny is a serious conversation about spousal abuse. Neither of you should ever beat the other.

IF the two of you like abusing each other, that is your problem. Kill each other for all I care. But to have a law that sates a man can beat is wife is horrible. That means that all the women who do not want to be beaten have no protection.
Unbelievable.

I wonder, why still women like remain Muslims? may be none of them (morethan half billion) eversaw that verse.

 

[BelFarfalla]

Isa/Jesus (pbuh) was not born through incest. You can’t put that shame to my beloved prophet because it is written by someone no one knows.

Again, the action of long time ago ancestors have no bearing on anyone, much less on Jesus. You are being silly. The OT simply records a lot of history.

So you think that a person who is born generations after some event like that his a ruined person from birth? Where is the love for humans in your heart?

 

[Verisimilitude]

I wonder, why still women like remain Muslims? may be none of them (morethan half billion) eversaw that verse.

Because leaving Islam in the East might make a woman get hit with a stone or two.
(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

islam-watch.org/LeavingIslam/Yagmur.htm

 

[quantumDeus]

Because leaving Islam in the East might make a woman get hit with a stone or two.
http://www.islam-watch.org/LeavingIslam/Images/stoning2.jpg

islam-watch.org/LeavingIslam/Yagmur.htm

A picture is indeed worth a thousand words.

 

[Khalfan]

Good.

No, no, no and no! Please stop trying to justify beating a women.
It’s just wrong.

You do justify the act of God as Love. Why he create Dumb and blind? Why he create handicapped? Why he create painful deceases? you call that Love?

God looks into your heart. Husbands are allowed to beat the wife with intention to correct her, maximum with a tooth brush. If the intention is wrong, it is a sin and husband will be punished for that. If the intention is correct and you use your hand to beat or something bigger than a tooth brush, even the toothbrush that you hit her a it can make mark on her body, it is still a sin will be punished for that.

If the husbands do wrong, wife too have rights that she can do to her husband.

I’m not an expert on hadd laws, so I’ll have to take your word for it. But it does happen, sadly enough.

Sounds like a tu quoque to me?
What does Hitler have to do with this discussion?

You quoted some bad muslim’s event. So I quoted Hitler as a bad Christian. As much as we have bad muslims, you too have bad Christians.

Thanks for the link. I read it (long read for a quick question). I find it far fetched TBH. That whole story about some element of sperm coming from the area under the ribs and the whole blood thing.
I’ve also heard other explanations given for this, like “in arabic it’s different. You’d have to know the language to really get it”.

Thanks

 

[BelFarfalla]

you understood what I said.

Oh yes I have understood what you said. And I repeat, this is exactly why people in the west must make sure that Shari’ah never becomes law in our countries.

I wonder, why still women like remain Muslims? may be none of them (morethan half billion) eversaw that verse.

Why do they stay? Because it is all they know. Because they have been taught that it is their place to be beaten and have no rights. I do know that there is a huge movement in the Islamic world to make wife beating (or ‘correction’ of a physical form) unlawful. Of course it is women who are pushing this. and it is men who have the religious police trying to shut the women up.

where do think half a billion women would go? How would they support themselves since in most Muslim countries illegal prostitution is the only way a single woman can earn a living? And if she does this she risks execution. What a choice be beaten at home or be a prostitute and eventually executed (most likely through stoning)

women in Muslim countries cannot even walk out their door without the permission of their husband and usually not with out a ‘safe’ male family member as an escort. The women cannot travel withtout their husband’s permission and again they need their husband or a ‘safe’ male family member escoriting them. So how can a woman excape an abusive marriage if her husband denies her permission to run away?

these women have no choice… they cannot leave their situtation.

I lived in muslim countires as a child… i saw what was going on. Women used to come to talk to my mother… they were trapped and had no rights. I saw a man who had 8 wives, he mistreated them horribley. These poor women had no choice. When they called the police for protection they were either put in jail or returned to the man who was abusing them.

I know that there are many Muslims who are good to their wives. But there are also many who are abusive and know that as long as they do not kill her or bruse her where it shows (hands or face) then he can do anything he wants.

 

[Khalfan]

In reading through the responses, it becomes evident that Muslims are just as confused as ever about Judaism and Christianity and what they are.

Typically, as any who uses a particular verse to prove a point, Muslims do it as well. (Learned behavior from anti-Catholics, perhaps? Sorry, couldn’t resist the dig.)

To understand Judaic or Christian Scripture, you have to read all of it in context. You also have to have a deep aprpeciation for various literary styles then in use, as well as allegory, metaphor, parables and allusion. To take all of Scripture as strictly literal leads to fallacies of human deduction (like God creating the heavens and the earth in seven days).

Studying the Qur’an is not so straightforward: the text is non-linear, but based on the length of the Sura. A chronologic look at the Qur’an is far more fruitful (even among many Islamic scholars) for it places things in historical context, as well as gives a greater appreciation of abrogation of previous events by a later one.

Which begs a question: if the Qur’an is inerrant and passed directly to Muhammed by Allah, why would any of it need abrogation?

It needed for those who need it. For others may not.

Several remarks made also raise the eyebrow of the discerning, but I will leave those to another thread. But among them of relevence here is the contention that the Qur’an has remained unchanged.

Historical record of Uthman’s doings in the third caliphate dispute that. It is actually hinted at in various hadith that records Muhammed’s reaction to two versions or “schools of teaching” extant during his lifetime (at the time the Qur’an being an oral tradition).

Archaeological evidence disputes it too, as recent finds (Syria being one of them) show conclusively that the Qur’an has changed.

Scrutiny of Islam has led me to conclude that Muhammed’s first impression was the right one: it was a demon in that cave.

The allegation of change in quran is more than 1000 years old.

 

[BelFarfalla]

You do justify the act of God as Love. Why he create Dumb and blind? Why he create handicapped? Why he create painful deceases? you call that Love?

God looks into your heart. Husbands are allowed to beat the wife with intention to correct her, maximum with a tooth brush. If the intention is wrong, it is a sin and husband will be punished for that. If the intention is correct and you use your hand to beat or something bigger than a tooth brush, even the toothbrush that you hit her a it can make mark on her body, it is still a sin will be punished for that.

Nonsense… a tooth brush. Nowhere in the qur’an, haadith or Shari’ah does it say this. We are not stupid enough to think that lightly tapping someone with a toothbrush will ‘correct’ their behavior.

If the husbands do wrong, wife too have rights that she can do to her husband. .

Really? Please provide the verses from the Qur’an and Hadiths that give her these rights.

 

[Khalfan]

There are also many who are leaving Islam. The numbers leaving Islam (mostly for Christianity, and usually Catholicism) in Africa alone are staggering.

Can you prove it?

Many leave other faiths disillusioned and turn to Islam, lured by the intentionally misleading prosletyzing done. Unlike Christian faiths, you can’t just leave Islam without the perpetual death sentence of apostacy laid on your head.

Annd whose view of Islam are they to turn to? Shii’a or Sunni? Or perhaps one of the lesser known divisions. Wahabi?

Islam is not as unified as Muslims would have everyone outside of Islam believe.

Shiites and Wahabis are mislead from true Islam. I suggest Sunni to be a true Muslim.

Deveation and misinterpretation will be there forever. Islam never imagine a world full of True Muslims.

 

[Khalfan]

Precisely. We don’t accept that 7th century religion. From the viewpoint of the 21st century we understand how our interpretation of Christian Scripture was at times errant. Note that the Scripture was not errant and was not changed, it was our view of them.

Feel free to remain in the 7th century, my friend. Don’t be surprised as the rest of the world passes you by. Adults do generally exclude children from adult matters. Except when the child is overly petulant and needs punishing.

You forgot. The generation can be mislead unless you learn from the history.

 

[Khalfan]

(continued from above)

Unless it had been only a few minutes, then is issue here is not that the husband did not get to collect his right to use her like a field. Plus this does not matter. He beat her. Even if he never has sex with her… he should loose his rights.

You showed what you think of women in general in your replies.

The woman never stated that she wanted a divorce. Her husband said something and we do not know if it was true. I can understand however if she wanted to leave a brutal man.

This one show that wife beating is allowed. Your explanation of it show how Muslim men really believe in their hearts. The Qur’an says it is allowed. What other proof is needed?

I understand the truth. Some of Islam is good as it borrows from Judaism and Christianity. But there are specific issues; wife beating is one of them. That prevents me from ever even considering leaving. I have talked too many who have converted to Islam who were lied to about this topic and many others.
Most people in the west who convert to island leave before 5 years… because they find out the things that their recruiters lied to them about or forgot to tell them.

I like you. You never learn from answers You want to prove the beating of woman as wrong so you never quite. You picked up a wrong hadees to prove where the wife was guilty. You do your interpretations on that hadees as you do with Bible to prove the divinity of Jesus (pbuh). But at the end you find nothing but Zero.

When I said there are instance where prophet favoured woman, it is copied from Christians and Jews.
Islam never said Woman is guilt of eating the fruit at garden.
Islam never taught woman can’t speak in Mosque.
Islam never taught the woman abused by husband has to suffer entire life.
Islam never taught marrying divorced woman is adultry.
Islam never taught woman is the glory of Man.

I can keep on quoting.

Do you know, when the woman in a Christain dominated country like UK, got the right to open a bank account?

Do you know, when woman got legal right in property in any Christian country?

 

[Khalfan]

Again, the action of long time ago ancestors have no bearing on anyone, much less on Jesus. You are being silly. The OT simply records a lot of history.

So you think that a person who is born generations after some event like that his a ruined person from birth? Where is the love for humans in your heart?

First you said, its blashphemy. Now you say it is history?

 

[quantumDeus]

First you said, its blashphemy. Now you say it is history?

Where did Bel say the OT was blasphemy?

 

[Khalfan]

Nonsense… a tooth brush. Nowhere in the qur’an, haadith or Shari’ah does it say this. We are not stupid enough to think that lightly tapping someone with a toothbrush will ‘correct’ their behavior.

‘Miswaq’ is mentioned in the details of the verse.

Really? Please provide the verses from the Qur’an and Hadiths that give her these rights.

Would you agree beating woman is right, if I provide equal right granted for woman?

 

[quantumDeus]

Would you agree beating woman is right, if I provide equal right granted for woman?

No, two wrongs don’t make a right. Several lefts can, however.

 

[BelFarfalla]

First you said, its blashphemy. Now you say it is history?

What? When did I say that the OT is blasphemy?

Someone else said that it was blasphemy to say that Jesus was the product of incest. I think they thought you were accusing Mary of incest. Not sure.

The OT does have a lot of history in it. The story of Judah and Tamar definitely is historical as well as scriptural. The Qur’an has a lot of history in it too… like when it tells of all the battles… That’s history as well as scripture.

Mathew gives a genealogy for Joseph that traces back to Perez, the son of Judah and Tamar. There are several bits of info related to this.

1. Joseph is not the biological father of Jesus. However by law, Joseph was the father of Jesus. So it was tracing back Jesus’ legal lineage, not his biological lineage.
2. The coupling of Judah and Tamar was 38 generations before Jesus. Get over it. You have no idea what your family was doing 38 generations ago. Your ancestors were pagans… we know about the sexual habits of those pagans … It was pretty rank to put it mildly .
3. According to the old ways every woman had the right to bear children. Her husband had to give them to her. Tamara was gypped out of her marriage right…. Judah and his sons did her a grave injustice. So she did something to get what the Judah and his sons owed her.
4. Technically the coupling of Judah and Tamar was not incest… This all occurs in the book of genesis… BEFORE the law. According to Genesis the entire human race started from two people… Adam and Eve. Do you believe this? If you do then you have to agree that in the beginning there was a lot of incest going on. Otherwise where did the children of Adam and Eve get spouses? Further in those days it was custom, when a woman’s husband died, his brother had to give his widow children. That could be considered incest by the newer laws. But in those days God commanded it.
5. If you think that Jesus having Perez in his ancestry look bad for Jesus, the how does the fact that Ishmael was an illegitimate son look for Muhammad? Remember that Abraham threw out Ishmael and his mother Hagar. Let’s face it Hagar committed fornication and Abraham commited adultery. Those are by the later laws grave sins, punishable by death. So why do you insult Muhammad by admitting that he had a illegitimate ancestor?

 

[quantumDeus]

Can you prove it?

Yes. But give the matter some research on your own, it is more fruitful for you to arrive at the answer led only by the premise. If you struggle and cannot find the sources, I will then be glad to supply them.

In your pursuit of this, you will also be shocked to see the brutality that Arab muslims are treating black muslims as well as Christians. No wonder they are leaving the flock in droves.

The preceding also gives you a hint where to start looking. Another hint: try searching the archives of Reuters and the BBC first.

Shiites and Wahabis are mislead from true Islam. I suggest Sunni to be a true Muslim.

And they would say the same about Sunnis. Having studied the history as well as the theology of Islam, I understand what the original schismal difference was (hint: look to Ali’s fourth caliphate).

Deveation and misinterpretation will be there forever. Islam never imagine a world full of True Muslims.

That is not what Muhammed himself asserts, both in the Qur’an and in ahadith. He did imagine a world of true Muslims. And unfortunately, those who came after “defended the faith” all the way to the gates of Vienna, across the Pyranees into the south of France.