Muhammad (pbuh), the Last Prophet

[Khalfan]

So in other words its is the word of a man against that of a women. We know that in Islam the word of two women equals that of one man.

The point is that a Muslim woman who does not have witnesses to her rape cannot prove that she was raped. A man’s word will always be taken above hers unless she was beaten to a pulp by the man. And we know that if she cannot prove rape it was adultery or fornication… hence it is reasonable in Islam to either whip for execute a rape victim when she has no witnesses. And of course we know that the vast majority of rapes have no witnesses.

Most Muslim women in Muslim countries do not dare tell anyone if they were raped as they will be punished for being the victim. It’s a hay day for rapists… they can rape with mipunity with the victims protecting the knowledge of the rape.

Don’t you read the answer carefully?!!!

*If a person makes an allegation of adultery against another person (male or female) he or she must produce four witnesses to support such an allegation; otherwise, he or she is guilty of slandering, which is a grave offense in Islam, for we are not to tarnish the honor of anyone.

A woman who has been raped cannot be asked to produce witnesses; her claim shall be accepted unless there are tangible grounds to prove otherwise.* To insist that she provide witnesses is akin to inflicting further pain on her.

Imagine you are a woman (I expect you are a male) and I raped you. Only your claim is enough to prove the case unless it is asked by court (If I deny). Science is so advanced that you can easily prove you were raped, with a Doctor report.

If you still have doubt, how your rape case can be proved in court, just ask a lawyer.

The issue of witnesses arises only if anyone makes an allegation against me that I raped so and so woman. Do you think it is logical to believe an allegation without any profe? Do you think any court (consider any christian court) will accept such a case of allegation just on words of that person?

Does that help you to understand something on it? If not, I think I will have to make a physical demo. I am sorry, I won’t be available.

 

[Khalfan]

This is for men.

“Whosoever putteth away his wife, and marrieth another, committeth adultery: and whosoever marrieth her that is put away from her husband committeth adultery” (Luke 16:18).

And this is for women.

“And if a woman shall put away her husband, and be married to another, she committeth adultery” (Mark 10:12).

It is prohibited in both ways.

The only reason that allows divorce (legal seperation of husband and wife) is fornication. All other separations (you can name it divorce or annullment) are committing adultry.

What do you understand from the word ‘divorce’?

Any answer?

 

[BelFarfalla]

Don’t you read the answer carefully?!!!

Imagine you are a woman (I expect you are a male) and I raped you. Only your claim is enough to prove the case unless it is asked by court (If I deny). Science is so advanced that you can easily prove you were raped, with a Doctor report.

If you still have doubt, how your rape case can be proved in court, just ask a lawyer.

The issue of witnesses arises only if anyone makes an allegation against me that I raped so and so woman. Do you think it is logical to believe an allegation without any profe? Do you think any court (consider any christian court) will accept such a case of allegation just on words of that person?.

I am arguing the convoluted logic used by court system such as the Iranian state when they execut rape victims… of course they are totally illogical and even evil in their treatment of rape victims.

Unfortunately, even modern science cannot often prove it was rape or consentual . All it can prove most times is that sex occured.

Does that help you to understand something on it? If not, I think I will have to make a physical demo. I am sorry, I won’t be available.

I’m glad that you won’t.

 

[Khalfan]

I am arguing the convoluted logic used by court system such as the Iranian state when they execut rape victims… of course they are totally illogical and even evil in their treatment of rape victims.

I cannot guarantee the acts of court in Iran.

But, if there is any country, any law, any community, any person do against the law of God, will be answerable in the court of GOD. That is what I can guarantee.

Unfortunately, even modern science cannot often prove it was rape or consentual . All it can prove most times is that sex occured.

What a Christian court do in such case? May be a bitter water test will work. Is that what they do?

 

[BelFarfalla]

I cannot guarantee the acts of court in Iran.

But, if there is any country, any law, any community, any person do against the law of God, will be answerable in the court of GOD. That is what I can guarantee.

What a Christian court do in such case? May be a bitter water test will work. Is that what they do?

I can tell you what our courts would do. If rape can be proven by physical and other means than the rapist will go to jail. If the rape was extermely violent and the victim was killed he could get the death sentence.

If the woman cannot prove beyond a reasonable doubt that it was rape. Then the accused goes free. And it is not assumed that she commited adultery or forniation… she is not stoned, or hung, or whipped.

 

[Onesimus]

What a Christian court do in such case? May be a bitter water test will work. Is that what they do?

There are no “Christian” courts. We learned a long time ago that justice has nothing to do with someone’s religion nor with what sex they are.

As for the bitter water test, can you prove it didn’t work when it was in use?

 

[Khalfan]

I can tell you what our courts would do. If rape can be proven by physical and other means than the rapist will go to jail. If the rape was extermely violent and the victim was killed he could get the death sentence.

If the woman cannot prove beyond a reasonable doubt that it was rape. Then the accused goes free. And it is not assumed that she commited adultery or forniation… she is not stoned, or hung, or whipped.

If the woman couldn’t prove she was raped, there are two possibilities for what could have happened. Either it wasn’t a rape, but a committed adultry. Or nothing happened, but just an allegation. If it was an adulty, both will be stoned to death. If it was not just an allegation, automatically the accused will have the right file a case against her for insulting. What is the penalty for insulting in your country? It is not to hang or to stone to death in Islam. If someone did that, it is not Islam and Islam cannot be justified by someones act.

There is no rape for rape in Islam. But it happened in Pakistan. Those who did that, are wrong, not Islam, since Islam doesn’t teach such brutal justice.

As I have already said, if there is any country, any law, any community, any person do against the law of God, will be answerable in the court of GOD.

 

[Khalfan]

There are no “Christian” courts. We learned a long time ago that justice has nothing to do with someone’s religion nor with what sex they are.

Islam is a complete way of life. It has its own guidence in every aspect of life. If your religion doesn’t give you that, it is not the problem of Islam.

Indeed, Christians don’t have courts and law. Thats is why courts in christian country approve divorces, even if it is against bible.

As for the bitter water test, can you prove it didn’t work when it was in use?

No. But I wonder, why it doesn’t work today?

 

[Onesimus]

Islam is a complete way of life.

No it isn’t. If it were, there would only be one sect of Islam.

It has its own guidence in every aspect of life. If your religion doesn’t give you that, it is not the problem of Islam.

No, “the problem of Islam” is you guys still haven’t figured out what we learned in the middle ages.

Namely, that for all the hot air about living by God’s perfect laws, it’s men who are applying and enforcing those laws, and men are most definitely not perfect.

What you wind up with are imperfect men who think they are ruling for
God when they are really ruling for themselves.

That’s why young Iranians despise their government. They’re getting a first-hand experience of what it’s like to be ruled by men who think they speak for God.

Indeed, Christians don’t have courts and law. Thats is why courts in christian country approve divorces, even if it is against bible.

That’s because we don’t write laws to enforce the Bible. We would rather have laws that protect people’s freedom to choose for themselves. We would rather have two men who genuinely love God, and eight who genuinely don’t, than ten who don’t know the difference because they have to act like it either way.

No. But I wonder, why it doesn’t work today?

That doesn’t really matter, does it?

 

[Khalfan]

No it isn’t. If it were, there would only be one sect of Islam.

Islam is not responsible for the acts of people. There is only one Quran and Only one Sunnah to follow in Islam. If people teaches defferent, its their responsibility.

No, “the problem of Islam” is you guys still haven’t figured out what we learned in the middle ages.

Namely, that for all the hot air about living by God’s perfect laws, it’s men who are applying and enforcing those laws, and men are most definitely not perfect.

What you wind up with are imperfect men who think they are ruling for God when they are really ruling for themselves.

That’s why young Iranians despise their government. They’re getting a first-hand experience of what it’s like to be ruled by men who think they speak for God.

Speak for God?!! That is a Christian concept.

It is illogical to jusify a Ferrari because someone drove it badly.

That’s because we don’t write laws to enforce the Bible. We would rather have laws that protect people’s freedom to choose for themselves. We would rather have two men who genuinely love God, and eight who genuinely don’t, than ten who don’t know the difference because they have to act like it either way.

That is the difference in Muslims and Christians. You keep God in church. We keep God everywhere, in every aspect of life. You make laws that suites your life. We have laws to live our life accordingly. There are many laws in Bible that supposed to be followed in your life. But you don’t follow that because it doesn’t suite your life.

Christians practice what can only be described as “selective morality”. What they like, they cling to and shove down other’s throats; what they don’t like, they ignore vehemently. That which is palatable and acceptable is supposedly applicable to all; while that which is obnoxious, inconvenient, or self-denying is only applicable to those addressed 2,000 years ago. I see so many people enjoy quoting the Ten Commandments, the Sermon on the Mount, and some of Paul’s sermons, but don’t even PRETEND to heed other, equally valid, maxims.
Marital Relationships
So many Christians try to rationalize this but it is clear that a true follower of Jesus can neither divorce someone nor marry someone who is divorced. There is an exception to the rule, however. If spouse commits adultery, divorce is permissible. On the same token, the Bible also says that anyone who obtains a divorce and marries another is in adulterer. Majority of divorces are a result of irreconcilable differences, not adultery, which implies that Christians are again practicing selective morality. How many Christians are working on a second, third or fourth marriage?

1. “So they are no longer two but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let no man put asunder” (Matthew 19:6 & Mark 10:9).
2. “Whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery” (Matthew 5:32, 19:9 & Luke 16:18).
3. “Whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery” (Matthew 5:32).
4. “…whosoever shall put away his wife, and marry another, committeth adultery against her” (Mark 10:11 & Luke 16:18), which applies to women as well (Mark 10:12).

Continued.

 

[Khalfan]

Continued.

Prayer

The Christian attempts to put prayer into schools run directly counter to biblical teachings.
Jesus said prayer should be a private affair devoid of public display: “And when you pray, you must not be like the hypocrites; for they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and at the street corners, that they may be seen by men. Truly, I say to you they have received their reward. But when you pray, go into your room (or closet.) and shut the door and pray to your Father who is in secret…” (Matthew 6:5-6).
Christians violate this on a regular basis. Christians continuously pray in public, IE: churches, street corners, schools, courts, etc. Christians always use the excuse that the above mentioned verse is some how “metaphorical” yet they take Paul’s maxim that men should pray with their heads uncovered very seriously. I assume this is generally followed because removing one’s hat isn’t particularly inconvenient. “Any man who prays or prophecies with his head covered dishonors his head…” (1 Corinthians 11:4). On the other hand, Paul’s tenet that women must keep their heads covered with a veil during prayer is quite inconvenient and, for this reason, has either been rationalized away or ignored, although it is no less binding than any other moral law in the New Testament: “…but any woman who prays or prophecies with her head unveiled dishonors her head… For if a woman will not veil herself, then we should cut off her hair: but if it be disgraceful for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her wear a veil… Judge for yourself; is it proper for a woman to pray to God with head uncovered?” (1 Corinthians 11:5-13) The selectivity is very clear.

More Commonly Ignored Teachings:

1. “Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him?” -l Corinthians 11:14.
2. Another tenet clearly prohibits women from being ministers or otherwise speaking in church. “Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak”-- 1 Corinthians 14:34. It’s difficult to see how Paul could support the current movement to ordain women.
3. A third tenet prohibits men and women from wearing each other’s clothing. “The woman shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man, neither shall a man put on a woman’s garment: for all that do so are abomination unto the Lord thy God”–Deuteronomy 22:5. Many Christian women wear pant suits!
4. Repetitious and monotonous praying is in violation of Matthew 6:7. “But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.”
5. Christians are not supposed to take their disputes before non-Christian courts or judges. “If any of you has a dispute with another, dare he take it before the ungodly for judgment instead of before the saints?” - 1 Corinthians 6:1.
6. Christian women are supposed to dress discreetly. “…that women should adorn themselves modestly and sensibly in seemly apparel, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or costly attire”–l Timothy 2:9; and “Let not yours be the outward adorning of braiding of hair, decoration of gold, and wearing of fine clothing”- 1 Peter 3 :3.
7. Here is perhaps the mother of verses ignored: “Judge not, that ye be not judged” -Matthew 7:1 and “Judge not, and ye shall not be judged, condemn not and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven” -Luke 6:37. The whole world is full of judges, juries, voters, employers, teachers, etc. which are all constantly judging others.
8. They are not to oppose evil. “But I say unto you, that ye resist not evil; but whosoever shall smite thee on the right cheek, turn to him the other also”-Matthew 5:39.
9. Biblicists are not allowed to call anyone “father”. “And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven” -Matthew 23:9. Not only is this rule ignored on a DAILY BASIS, but Catholicism uses “father” as a specific title.
10. Christians are not supposed to plan or prepare. God will provide. “Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat, or that ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what ye shall put on… Behold the fowls of the air: for they sow not, neither do they reap, not gather into barns; yet your heavenly father feedth them. Are ye not much better than they?” -Matthew 6:25-34 & Luke 12:22-31.

Continued.

 

[Khalfan]

Continued.

1. Jesus, who clearly is of greater importance than Paul, said the Old Law was to remain in force until heaven and earth passed away and all is accomplished. “For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass the law until all is accomplished. Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven”-Matthew 5:18-19. Heaven and earth still exist and many prophecies are not yet fulfilled. The bible says that Christians should still be following the Old Law. This verse leads me into an observation of how clear their selective morality can be exposed. Take for instance how Biblicists approach the Old Testament. They leap in and out of the Old Law like a porpoise in a ship’s wake. If they like it, they quote it; if they don’t, they won’t. Among the scores of verses they enjoy and employ are those which teach the following:
2. Contact with mediums or wizards is forbidden. “Do not turn to mediums or wizards; do not seek them out to be defiled by them. I am the Lord your God”- Leviticus 19:31, see also: Leviticus 20:6 & Deuteronomy 18: 10-13.
3. People should give one-tenth of their income to the Lord, which Biblicists equate with church. “And all the tithe of the land, whether of the seed of the land, or of the fruit of the tree, is the Lord’s…And concerning the tithe of the herd, or of the flock, even of whatsoever passeth under the rod, the tenth shall be holy unto the Lord”-Leviticus 27:30-32.
4. Tattoos are anathema: “You shall not make any cuttings in your flesh on account of the dead or tattoo any marks upon you. I am the Lord”-Leviticus 19:28.
5. Money cannot be lent at interest to your brother, only to foreigners (Deuteronomy 23: 19-20).
6. Eating pork is forbidden (Deuteronomy 14:8).
7. A man must marry and have relations with his dead brother’s wife (Deuteronomy 25:5-6).
8. A seducer must marry an unengaged virgin whom he seduces (Exodus 22:16-17).
9. A raped, unengaged virgin must marry her rapist and they can never divorce (Deuteronomy 22:28-29).
10. There are several petty and silly little verses in the O.T., but none the less, they are to be followed. I guess it’s okay to disobey the lord for fashion’s sake. Beards can’t be rounded (Leviticus 19:27); A garment composed of wool and linen can’t be worn (Deuteronomy 22:11).
11. Bastards can’t enter the Lord’s congregation. (Deuteronomy 23:2) This is harsh, but God commands it, hence it must be “just”.
    All of these rules are part of the Old Covenant and of equal import. Why quote the Ten Commandments and ignore other tenets? A believer’s obligation to one is no less than his obligation to all. In fact, if under the New Covenant Christians have stepped into the shoes of the Israelites and become, in effect, the new Chosen People, then they should inherit all the privileges and duties of that office. They seem to want the former but not the latter. Christians use say, “That’s from the Old Law and we aren’t under the Old Law anymore”. But aren’t the Ten Commandments part of the Old Law as per Matthew 19:16-18, Mark 10:17-19 & Luke 18:18-22? How Jesus omitted half of the Ten Commandments and invented a new one, “though shall not defraud”?! Jesus said “According to scripture it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of law to fail” (Luke 16:17 & Matthew 5:18-19). If sin is transgression of the law, as 1 John 3:4 says, then Christians should be following all of the Old Law. But Paul said “No… A former commandment is set aside because of its weakness and uselessness…” (Hebrews 7:18)
    Paul invalidated which Jesus validated. Who do you Christians follow, Jesus or Paul? Do Christians follow what Jesus taught?

That doesn’t really matter, does it?

No. It doesn’t matter for me at all. But it does matter for each and every true Christian. Because you don’t realise that, there is no even a single priest lived at least for last 500 years who could perform such a test. There is no priest living today who can guarantee such a test. I think there is no even a single true Christian living today.

 

[LilyM]

If the woman couldn’t prove she was raped, there are two possibilities for what could have happened. Either it wasn’t a rape, but a committed adultry. Or nothing happened, but just an allegation. If it was an adulty, both will be stoned to death. If it was not just an allegation, automatically the accused will have the right file a case against her for insulting. What is the penalty for insulting in your country? It is not to hang or to stone to death in Islam. If someone did that, it is not Islam and Islam cannot be justified by someones act.

There is no rape for rape in Islam. But it happened in Pakistan. Those who did that, are wrong, not Islam, since Islam doesn’t teach such brutal justice.

As I have already said, if there is any country, any law, any community, any person do against the law of God, will be answerable in the court of GOD.

So where are the MEN being hung, stoned or executed for adultery??? Why is it nearly 100% of them women? Where are the men they are fornicating with???

Whether it is rape or not EVERY woman who has sex has DNA of the man on her, so for nearly every woman who is executed the police should be able to find the man whose DNA is there inside her and he should be executed too.

This would happen if Islamic courts were serious about adultery or fornication being an equal sin for the man and the woman. But this almost never happens. There’s a double standard where men are either let to go free or the police and courts don’t bother looking for them.

 

[Khalfan]

So where are the MEN being hung, stoned or executed for adultery??? Why is it nearly 100% of them women? Where are the men they are fornicating with???

Whether it is rape or not EVERY woman who has sex has DNA of the man on her, so for nearly every woman who is executed the police should be able to find the man whose DNA is there inside her and he should be executed too.

This would happen if Islamic courts were serious about adultery or fornication being an equal sin for the man and the woman. But this almost never happens. There’s a double standard where men are either let to go free or the police and courts don’t bother looking for them.

How many womans you know that got executed for adultry?

It is not because there are only woman got executed in the case of adultry, but it is because of the media, the website you rely on to copy paste the news of execution in Islamic countries. Since you know all the woman execution cases, why don’t you try to copy paste some cases where men were freed even after committing adultry?

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

Well there was the celebrated case in Nigeria of the woman who was raped was sentenced to death because of her pregnancy and the rapist was freed for lack of evidence.

Then there was the case in Pakistan where the woman was forced to marry her father-in-law who raped her, after divorcing her husband of course since she was now haram to him.

Then there was the case in Iran where the girl was hanged even though the man was set free for ‘lack of evidence’. She was also raped in custody by the moral police as well.

 

[LilyM]

Well there was the celebrated case in Nigeria of the woman who was raped was sentenced to death because of her pregnancy and the rapist was freed for lack of evidence.

Prime example of what I was saying - a child exists, for heaven’s sake! A simple blood test would show beyond doubt who the father (rapist or fornicator) was and he could be appropriately punished along with her. But this wasn’t done. Why not, if fornication or adultery by men is equally deplorable and taken equally seriously as it is when women are guilty?

 

[Subrosa]

Some how I think she is fine now. God knows of the horrors visited on this child.
On Sunday August 15, 2004, a 16 year old girl by the name of Atefe Rajabi, daughter of Ghassem Rajabi, was executed in the town of Neka, located in the province of Mazandaran, for “engaging in acts incompatible with chastity”. She was mentally retarded and thus an easy target for rape… she claimed to have been gang and or repeatedly raped by some of the Iranian guard and ‘virtue police‘. She complained to get help… This was a repeat rape situation. Instead of the help she sought he was executed. The rapists were never even questioned.
She had no attorney. From a poor family she had to defend herself. The court fraudulently listed her age as 22, probably in hopes that the international community would not raise a stink about it.
“In her summary trial, the teenage victim did not have any lawyer and efforts by her family to recruit a lawyer was to no avail. Ateqeh personally defended herself. She told the religious judge, Haji Rezaii, that he should punish the main perpetrators of moral corruption not the victims. She was found guilty of “engaging in acts incompatible with chastity”.
This is ‘justice’ for women Iran style.

Apparently, not every man in Iran is like this.

Here is something I found during a google…

activistchat.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=3768

Sub

 

[Khalfan]

Well there was the celebrated case in Nigeria of the woman who was raped was sentenced to death because of her pregnancy and the rapist was freed for lack of evidence.

Then there was the case in Pakistan where the woman was forced to marry her father-in-law who raped her, after divorcing her husband of course since she was now haram to him.

Then there was the case in Iran where the girl was hanged even though the man was set free for ‘lack of evidence’. She was also raped in custody by the moral police as well.

Where can I find these news? I want to check if all these happened under Sharia law. Like in Pakistan, they have tribal courts and their own justice which is not at all Islamic.

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

Those were anecdotes I remember though the Nigerian case is very famous. The Pakistani case is tribal though, but Pakistan like Nigeria has the 4 witnesses to rape/adultery law whereby a woman has to prove with 3 male witnesses that she wasn’t raped or she didn’t commit adultery - which is quite difficult. Her pregnancy of course is evidence of some moral wrongdoing.

The Iranian case is also very famous - many girls are hung in Iran for rape/adultery while their male partners are not. I remember seeing a tv doco on that.

 

[BelFarfalla]

If the woman couldn’t prove she was raped, there are two possibilities for what could have happened. Either it wasn’t a rape, but a committed adultry. Or nothing happened, but just an allegation.

Just because a woman cannot prove a rape does not mean that the rape did not happen. And it does meant that it happened either

If it was an adulty, both will be stoned to death.

In a case where the woman has come forward to say that sex had occurred, and she claims it was rape but cannot prove it… she has already admitted to having sex. So she will be assumed to have committed adultery. So not, she a rape victim who cannot prove the rape, is stoned as an adulteress. The man who will not admit to anything goes free with no punishment. This is the catch 22 under Islamic law. This is why the vast majority of rape victims living under Islamic law will never ever come forward and bring charges against a rapist.

Stoning people to death for adultery is barbaric and inhumane. Execution for this is disgusting.

If it was not just an allegation, automatically the accused will have the right file a case against her for insulting. What is the penalty for insulting in your country? It is not to hang or to stone to death in Islam. If someone did that, it is not Islam and Islam cannot be justified by someones act.

Do you mean, ‘if it is an allegation’? We don’t call it ‘insulting’. We call it filing false charges. In some cases, where it is clear that the accuser was acting maliciously in filing rape charges, they can be charged with bringing false charges. The person they charged has the right to file a civil case against a false accuser. However, just because a rape case was not proven, it does not mean that it did not happen. Most rape cases can never be proven.