Muhammad (pbuh), the Last Prophet

[BelFarfalla]

Apparently, not every man in Iran is like this.

Here is something I found during a google…

activistchat.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=3768

Sub

You are right that not every man in Iran is like this. There is a lot of ourcry in Iran over these cases… and over a lot of the other terrible things that happen there under the mandates of the Islamic leaders.

There is one case of rape I’ve read about in Iran… a young woman was raped… she is married and had a couple of children. She became pregnant from the rape so since she could not prove the rape (no witnesses) it is obvious they say it is obvious that she committed adultery. They will not do a DNA test to determine the father of the child so the rapist is free. Last I heard she was on death row waiting to give birth after which they will execute here… she is most likely already dead.

Through all of this her husband as fought to get her free. He insists that it was not adultery. He and his wife had a lot of local support for freeing her. But the courts are set on execution. Her husband and their supporters are obviously good men and women.

I have known a lot of people from Iran, good people. One of my sons has a very close friend whose father is an MD from Iran. He’s married to an American woman. They are wonderful people.

Eventually this regime in Iran will be over thrown. The sooner the better.

 

[BelFarfalla]

Where can I find these news? I want to check if all these happened under Sharia law. Like in Pakistan, they have tribal courts and their own justice which is not at all Islamic.

newsvote.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/2116540.stm

"Amina Lawal, aged 30, a mother of four, has been sentenced to death by stoning by an Islamic court for having a child outside of wedlock. The man she named as the father has denied paternity, and he says that Islamic law forbids DNA tests.“

"Note that she is convicted of adultery even though her husband had divorced her two years earlier.“

“The existence of this child, born to a divorcee, was evidence enough to convict her of the crime of adultery. “

“To convict a man of the same crime he must either confess directly to the court, or no less than four men have to attest to witnessing the physical act of adultery. “

The cases in Nigeria are under Shari’ah law…

findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1264/is_11_33/ai_98370912

findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1141/is_22_38/ai_84970268

 

[Ella]

No it isn’t. If it were, there would only be one sect of Islam.

No, “the problem of Islam” is you guys still haven’t figured out what we learned in the middle ages.

Namely, that for all the hot air about living by God’s perfect laws, it’s men who are applying and enforcing those laws, and men are most definitely not perfect.

What you wind up with are imperfect men who think they are ruling for
God when they are really ruling for themselves.

That’s why young Iranians despise their government. They’re getting a first-hand experience of what it’s like to be ruled by men who think they speak for God.

That’s because we don’t write laws to enforce the Bible. We would rather have laws that protect people’s freedom to choose for themselves. We would rather have two men who genuinely love God, and eight who genuinely don’t, than ten who don’t know the difference because they have to act like it either way.

That doesn’t really matter, does it?

Great post, Onesimus, this is exactly what Muslims don’t understand.

 

[Onesimus]

Islam is not responsible for the acts of people. There is only one Quran and Only one Sunnah to follow in Islam. If people teaches defferent, its their responsibility.

Nonsense!
You can’t have it both ways. Followers of Mohammed can not claim authority, then deny responsibility. It is a logical contradiction.

Speak for God?!! That is a Christian concept.

So when was the last time Allah issued his own fatwa?

It is illogical to jusify a Ferrari because someone drove it badly.

And it is similarly illogical to claim someone drives badly because it’s NOT in a Ferrari.

That is the difference in Muslims and Christians. You keep God in church. We keep God everywhere, in every aspect of life.

Not at all. The difference is Muslims make everything into a rule to be followed. And then they’re thrilled when they get to pound someone for breaking a rule the way our people used to be thrilled by public executions. For Muslims, “righteousness” is a sport.

Christians that care enough to even go to church take God everywhere with them, whether required or not! With Christians, if you aren’t following of your own free will it’s not worth having you follow.

That’s what “love” is all about. You can’t take it from people, or force them to give it to you. The only way love has any value at all is if people give it of their own free will.

You make laws that suites your life.

No, we make laws to keep the peace and pursue happiness as we see fit.

If pursuing happiness for some means following the teachings of Mohammed, they are free to do that until they start intruding on the freedom of others to follow the teachings of somebody or nobody else.

That is our great quid pro quo. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

There are many laws in Bible that supposed to be followed in your life.

No, there aren’t. You make them into laws because that’s all you understand. You can’t tell me you’ve never seen any of the passages that tell Christians the are no longer under “the law” in the religious sense.

Christians practice what can only be described as “selective morality”. What they like, they cling to and shove down other’s throats; what they don’t like, they ignore vehemently. That which is palatable and acceptable is supposedly applicable to all; while that which is obnoxious, inconvenient, or self-denying is only applicable to those addressed 2,000 years ago. I see so many people enjoy quoting the Ten Commandments, the Sermon on the Mount, and some of Paul’s sermons, but don’t even PRETEND to heed other, equally valid, maxims.

So how is that different from “There is only one Quran and Only one Sunnah to follow in Islam. If people teaches defferent, its their responsibility?”

You condemn Christians for not policing their own, but for Muslims you say deviations are the responsibility of the ones doing the deviating.

 

[Sura10_Ayat94]

TO ALL

It’s quite paradoxical that MUSLIMS can post there questions and replies in this ‘Catholic forum’ and other Christian forums without fear of continual harassment and incessant banning, unlike the other ISLAMIC forums which tend to very alacrity when banning individuals (especially Christians) who pose ‘TOUGH’ questions regarding Islam. e.g. topics such as Mohammed, abrogation ‘Naskh’ Sura 9:5 annulling all peaceful verses, polygamy, or even the HADITH pertaining to violent, and discrimination to non-Muslims.

These Islamic forums are always critiquing Christianity from a Muslim perspective. Yet the opposite is often rejected.

**To me this is the major difference between the two monotheist groups – **

**1) **Christianity is openly questioned and criticised with no backlash from the general Christian community,

**2) **Where on the other hand, Islam is always candidly critical of all other religions, yet from critiquing Islam from a non-Muslims perspective, their reaction/s is often hostile and antagonistic and just proves that Islam is ‘Din’ e Sif’ (the religion of the sword 9:5) and not of peace as illustrated in the constant banning of Christians in Islamic forums.

To prove my point, how can this universally decree be helpful to MANKIND?

**“when judgment day arrives, Allah will give every Muslim, a Jew or Christian to kill so that the Muslim will not enter into hell fire.” **(Mishkat Al-Messabih, vol. 2, no.5552) frontpagemag.com/Articles/Printable.asp?ID=10581

Hypocrisy in action from the religion of peace – Muslims demonstrate outrage over insults but no outrage over suicide bombers, assassinations, beheadings, honour killings, public stonings, slavery, killing of apostasy, polygamy, inhumane commands… etc

Religion of peace with no genuine answers?

 

[paarsurrey]

TO ALL

Hi
Some might not know of Sura10 Ayat94, so I want to give it here:
95 (94): "And if thou art in doubt concerning that which We have sent down to thee, ask those who have been reading the Book before thee. Indeed the truth has come to thee from thy Lord; be not, therefore , of those who doubt."Thanks

 

[chet]

]As far as I know, there is only one Holy spirit.

Khalfan, I am glad you know there is one Holy Spirit! And Who or what is The Holy Spirit?

 

[BelFarfalla]

Hi
Some might not know of Sura10 Ayat94, so I want to give it here:
95 (94): "And if thou art in doubt concerning that which We have sent down to thee, ask those who have been reading the Book before thee. Indeed the truth has come to thee from thy Lord; be not, therefore , of those who doubt."Thanks

This Sura says to ask the Christians and Jews if you are in doubt. Yet you adn every other Muslim try to say that the Book (the Bible) is false.

 

[Khalfan]

Those were anecdotes I remember though the Nigerian case is very famous. The Pakistani case is tribal though, but Pakistan like Nigeria has the 4 witnesses to rape/adultery law whereby a woman has to prove with 3 male witnesses that she wasn’t raped or she didn’t commit adultery - which is quite difficult. Her pregnancy of course is evidence of some moral wrongdoing.

The Iranian case is also very famous - many girls are hung in Iran for rape/adultery while their male partners are not. I remember seeing a tv doco on that.

Few days back only, I got a mail with pictures of hanging a guy in Iran for rape and killing of chidren. None of the child were hung. The guy got 80 lashes and hung in public. Let me search that mail and put the pictures here.

 

[chet]

“when judgment day arrives, Allah will give every Muslim, a Jew or Christian to kill so that the Muslim will not enter into hell fire.” (Mishkat Al-Messabih, vol. 2, no.5552

Revelation 19:20 And the beast was seized, and with him the false prophet who performed the signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image; these two were thrown alive into the lake of fire which burns with brimstone.

Revelation 20:4 Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

Revelation 20:10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

So Allah is going to give Muslims Christians to kill ( those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God,)( and the false prophet who performed the signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image; these two were thrown alive into the lake of fire which burns with brimstone.)Weren’t their a couple of Christians girls who were beheaded on their way to school by Muslims in Indonesia? Could those Muslims be following the false prophet?

 

[Khalfan]

Just because a woman cannot prove a rape does not mean that the rape did not happen. And it does meant that it happened either

In a case where the woman has come forward to say that sex had occurred, and she claims it was rape but cannot prove it… she has already admitted to having sex. So she will be assumed to have committed adultery. So not, she a rape victim who cannot prove the rape, is stoned as an adulteress. The man who will not admit to anything goes free with no punishment. This is the catch 22 under Islamic law. This is why the vast majority of rape victims living under Islamic law will never ever come forward and bring charges against a rapist.

Having raped and having adultery is different. Rape is not with intention. It is not a sin either. If anyone is executed for that, Islam doesn’t have to take the responsibility. You may see this under law of a country but not as Islamic teaching.

I am a sunni Muslim and I don’t agrre many of Shiite practices in Iran which is not at all Islamic.

Stoning people to death for adultery is barbaric and inhumane. Execution for this is disgusting.

Islam suggest it for a healthy society, not to save adulters. It is just like cutting the part which got cancer. It may be inhuman and disgusting but we have to cut it to save other parts from cancer.

Do you mean, ‘if it is an allegation’? We don’t call it ‘insulting’. We call it filing false charges. In some cases, where it is clear that the accuser was acting maliciously in filing rape charges, they can be charged with bringing false charges. The person they charged has the right to file a civil case against a false accuser. However, just because a rape case was not proven, it does not mean that it did not happen. Most rape cases can never be proven.

Those cases are hopless here, but will be charged and the criminals will be punished very well in the court of God. Charging the rape victim for adultery and executing is not Islamic.

 

[Khalfan]

You are right that not every man in Iran is like this. There is a lot of ourcry in Iran over these cases… and over a lot of the other terrible things that happen there under the mandates of the Islamic leaders.

There is one case of rape I’ve read about in Iran… a young woman was raped… she is married and had a couple of children. She became pregnant from the rape so since she could not prove the rape (no witnesses) it is obvious they say it is obvious that she committed adultery. They will not do a DNA test to determine the father of the child so the rapist is free. Last I heard she was on death row waiting to give birth after which they will execute here… she is most likely already dead.

Through all of this her husband as fought to get her free. He insists that it was not adultery. He and his wife had a lot of local support for freeing her. But the courts are set on execution. Her husband and their supporters are obviously good men and women.

I have known a lot of people from Iran, good people. One of my sons has a very close friend whose father is an MD from Iran. He’s married to an American woman. They are wonderful people.

Eventually this regime in Iran will be over thrown. The sooner the better.

I too pray for it.

 

[Khalfan]

newsvote.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/2116540.stm

"Amina Lawal, aged 30, a mother of four, has been sentenced to death by stoning by an Islamic court for having a child outside of wedlock. The man she named as the father has denied paternity, and he says that Islamic law forbids DNA tests.“

"Note that she is convicted of adultery even though her husband had divorced her two years earlier.“

“The existence of this child, born to a divorcee, was evidence enough to convict her of the crime of adultery. “

“To convict a man of the same crime he must either confess directly to the court, or no less than four men have to attest to witnessing the physical act of adultery. “

The cases in Nigeria are under Shari’ah law…

findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1264/is_11_33/ai_98370912

findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1141/is_22_38/ai_84970268

There is two nigerian cases. One is freed. Other is in court. What happened to her? Is she stoned or freed?

 

[Khalfan]

Nonsense!
You can’t have it both ways. Followers of Mohammed can not claim authority, then deny responsibility. It is a logical contradiction.

It is about the teaching and understanding. Misunderstanding and misinterpretation problems is there in every religion. How many sects you Christians have? All they are teaching the same? It is applicable to Islam too. Shiite teaches many things different from Sunni teachigs. They can’t take responsibility of each others. That is what nonesense.

So when was the last time Allah issued his own fatwa?

Fatwas are not from God. Scholars do that. It can be accepted or rejected.

And it is similarly illogical to claim someone drives badly because it’s NOT in a Ferrari.

Correct. If someone drives an old model car and claim it to be ferrari, its illogical. If he is driving it wrong and claims it to be perfect, that too is illogical.

Not at all. The difference is Muslims make everything into a rule to be followed. And then they’re thrilled when they get to pound someone for breaking a rule the way our people used to be thrilled by public executions. For Muslims, “righteousness” is a sport.

Indeed.

Christians that care enough to even go to church take God everywhere with them, whether required or not! With Christians, if you aren’t following of your own free will it’s not worth having you follow.

That’s what “love” is all about. You can’t take it from people, or force them to give it to you. The only way love has any value at all is if people give it of their own free will.

No, we make laws to keep the peace and pursue happiness as we see fit.

Yaa. Only problem is, you don’t know what to follow.

If pursuing happiness for some means following the teachings of Mohammed, they are free to do that until they start intruding on the freedom of others to follow the teachings of somebody or nobody else.

That is our great quid pro quo. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

We all are following some rules of someone.

No, there aren’t. You make them into laws because that’s all you understand. You can’t tell me you’ve never seen any of the passages that tell Christians the are no longer under “the law” in the religious sense.

Can you quote?

So how is that different from “There is only one Quran and Only one Sunnah to follow in Islam. If people teaches defferent, its their responsibility?”

You condemn Christians for not policing their own, but for Muslims you say deviations are the responsibility of the ones doing the deviating.

The misunderstanding and Mis interpretation makes people make their own law and Islam. That is how there gonna be 72 sects which teaches wrong Islam.

 

[Khalfan]

TO ALL

It’s quite paradoxical that MUSLIMS can post there questions and replies in this ‘Catholic forum’ and other Christian forums without fear of continual harassment and incessant banning, unlike the other ISLAMIC forums which tend to very alacrity when banning individuals (especially Christians) who pose ‘TOUGH’ questions regarding Islam. e.g. topics such as Mohammed, abrogation ‘Naskh’ Sura 9:5 annulling all peaceful verses, polygamy, or even the HADITH pertaining to violent, and discrimination to non-Muslims.

These Islamic forums are always critiquing Christianity from a Muslim perspective. Yet the opposite is often rejected.

**To me this is the major difference between the two monotheist groups – **

**1) **Christianity is openly questioned and criticised with no backlash from the general Christian community,

**2) **Where on the other hand, Islam is always candidly critical of all other religions, yet from critiquing Islam from a non-Muslims perspective, their reaction/s is often hostile and antagonistic and just proves that Islam is ‘Din’ e Sif’ (the religion of the sword 9:5) and not of peace as illustrated in the constant banning of Christians in Islamic forums.

To prove my point, how can this universally decree be helpful to MANKIND?

**“when judgment day arrives, Allah will give every Muslim, a Jew or Christian to kill so that the Muslim will not enter into hell fire.” **(Mishkat Al-Messabih, vol. 2, no.5552) frontpagemag.com/Articles/Printable.asp?ID=10581

Hypocrisy in action from the religion of peace – Muslims demonstrate outrage over insults but no outrage over suicide bombers, assassinations, beheadings, honour killings, public stonings, slavery, killing of apostasy, polygamy, inhumane commands… etc

Religion of peace with no genuine answers?

Wow… I am Quitting this religion today itself.

I am embraced Islam… the religion of peace.

Ashahdu an laaa ilaaha illallah wahdahu laa shareeka lahu… Wa ashadu anna muhammadan abdahu wa rasooluhu…

 

[Khalfan]

Khalfan, I am glad you know there is one Holy Spirit! And Who or what is The Holy Spirit?

Can you give me the context, where did I say that? The holy Spirit mentioned in Quran, regarding the revelation is Gabriel (as).

 

[dolphinlove]

Having raped and having adultery is different. Rape is not with intention. It is not a sin either. If anyone is executed for that, Islam doesn’t have to take the responsibility. You may see this under law of a country but not as Islamic teaching.

Those cases are hopless here, but will be charged and the criminals will be punished very well in the court of God. Charging the rape victim for adultery and executing is not Islamic.

Im sorry, but are you SERIOUS???
Hang on, just have to pick up my jaw off the ground…
You say rape is not with intention??? come on, we know men rape with the intention of showing the ‘power’ trip they get from it, the power they have over someone inferior to then. Do you know of the impact a rape has on a women?? or even a male for that matter???
Rape is a VERY big sin in Christianity.
Rape can almost ruin a persons life.
Im still gobsmacked with what you have written.
I really could go on for 2 days with why rape is WRONG and its a SIN

 

[Khalfan]

So Allah is going to give Muslims Christians to kill ( those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God,)( and the false prophet who performed the signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image; these two were thrown alive into the lake of fire which burns with brimstone.)Weren’t their a couple of Christians girls who were beheaded on their way to school by Muslims in Indonesia? Could those Muslims be following the false prophet?

I am sorry. I can’t give you the number of Muslims beheaded in jerusalem during crusades, number of jews beheaded by Hitler. I can’t give you the number of muslims beheaded by U.S. invade in Afghan and Iraq.

There is something Jesus (pbuh) said.

Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Muslims or Jews never call Jesus (pbuh) ‘Lord, Lord’. Do you call that? Be careful then.

 

[Khalfan]

Im sorry, but are you SERIOUS???
Hang on, just have to pick up my jaw off the ground…
You say rape is not with intention??? come on, we know men rape with the intention of showing the ‘power’ trip they get from it, the power they have over someone inferior to then. Do you know of the impact a rape has on a women?? or even a male for that matter???
Rape is a VERY big sin in Christianity.
Rape can almost ruin a persons life.
Im still gobsmacked with what you have written.
I really could go on for 2 days with why rape is WRONG and its a SIN

My dear friend, we are talking about rape victims. Not the rapists. Do the victims have to bear punishment or not, that is the talk. On that I said, rape victims don’t get involved in rape with intention. So that, it is not a sin either. Hope now it is clear for you. Read before you say something.

 

[LilyM]

My dear friend, we are talking about rape victims. Not the rapists. Do the victims have to bear punishment or not, that is the talk. On that I said, rape victims don’t get involved in rape with intention. So that, it is not a sin either. Hope now it is clear for you. Read before you say something.

And yet, should a woman be, for example, found to be pregnant as the poor woman in Nigeria was, and be so unlucky as not to be able to prove rape, she is assumed to have intentionally fornicated and punished accordingly. Which is absolutely ridiculous.

Whatever happened to ‘innocent until PROVEN guilty’? Why should the burden not be on whoever wants her punished to PROVE that she intentionally fornicated?

Surely it’s more important to make sure you don’t punish an innocent than to assume every woman is guilty - after all, God will punish the guilty ones anyway, but I don’t think He’ll be too pleased at those who are quick to punish the innocent because they can’t prove their innocence.