Muhammad rejected Christianity/Jesus

[MartinJordan]

If one is fair, it can go either way. The early Church fathers understood, when Jesus was quoting psalms 82:6, that jesus was insisting that if you can be called gods, I have a better right to be God. So I am well aware of some of Christian commentary regarding these verses.

But I think it is stretch, being that Jesus was a Jew.

Moses was called Elohim in the old testament and Aaron was his prophet. (Exodux 7:1) Perhaps this is what Jesus was referring, He is the Representative of God on Earth so to speak, but all major prophets, have a right to called God.

Maybe major all major Prophets, are God incarnate, much like Hindus, who believe, their major prophets are Avatars, like Krishna, the Budda, and others. Just a reflection. One would need to find a better explanation for this in Islamic terminology or Jewish terminology. I will have to look into this a little further, there are people who hold this believe, for Moses, Jesus and Muhammad that they were Avatars. I will try and look into their reasoning.

My friend you are not really examining the Gospel properly. You are trying to grab stuff from all over the place. We are from Abrahams faith are we not? Why drag non-Abrahamic religions into this?

I am seriously doubting your methods in trying to understand what Catholics believe.

As of your first part of comments above you have dragged the Church Fathers into your scheme of analysis which is fine but as they lived closer to the times you have to take their words/writings very seriously. They don’t only examine John 10.

For I am short of time let me ask have you read John 14?

MJ

 

[tabycat]

 

[jakasaki]

Tabycat, I need to join you!

:tanning: :takethat:

 

[TheSufi]

My friend you are not really examining the Gospel properly. You are trying to grab stuff from all over the place. We are from Abrahams faith are we not? Why drag non-Abrahamic religions into this?

I am seriously doubting your methods in trying to understand what Catholics believe.

As of your first part of comments above you have dragged the Church Fathers into your scheme of analysis which is fine but as they lived closer to the times you have to take their words/writings very seriously. They don’t only examine John 10.

For I am short of time let me ask have you read John 14?

MJ

Yes I’ve read it. It wasn’t an early church father, i was mistaken but it was an Christian commentator from 1100 AD, either Orthodox or Catholic, I’m thinking Orthodox.

Well, I won’t mention non-abrahamic religions. I didn’t come here specifically to learn about Catholic beliefs, I came here because somebody was bashing Islam, so I came here to defend my religion. But I am not closed minded and am willing to learn anything. If I want people to listen to my perspective then I have to be willing to listen to theirs. That is just good manners.

I just re-read that chapter John 14. It doesn’t change my mind about Jesus concerning him being God. But it has caused me to reflect on what this means in terms what Prophets really are…

They were not just mere men. With Moses being called Elohim (god) and Aaron his prophet. And Jesus emphasizing what he is emphasizing. And then in Islam, reality of Muhammad, and why the Sufis emphasize him, so much.

Just reading the words of John, makes wonder what did he mean by those words. He said so many things. One question is what did he mean by “believe in him.” It can’t mean just mere belief. Like I believe London exist, even though I have never been, nor see it with my own eyes. It has to mean more that.

I am not interested in just a catholic understanding of it, unless it is from a truly spiritual Saint, preferably a monk, who has witnessed Jesus spiritually and communicates in a two way conversation with The Divine.
Anyway.

 

[MartinJordan]

Yes I’ve read it. It wasn’t an early church father, i was mistaken but it was an Christian commentator from 1100 AD, either Orthodox or Catholic, I’m thinking Orthodox.

Well, I won’t mention non-abrahamic religions. I didn’t come here specifically to learn about Catholic beliefs, I came here because somebody was bashing Islam, so I came here to defend my religion. But I am not closed minded and am willing to learn anything. If I want people to listen to my perspective then I have to be willing to listen to theirs. That is just good manners.

I just re-read that chapter John 14. It doesn’t change my mind about Jesus concerning him being God. But it has caused me to reflect on what this means in terms what Prophets really are…

They were not just mere men. With Moses being called Elohim (god) and Aaron his prophet. And Jesus emphasizing what he is emphasizing. And then in Islam, reality of Muhammad, and why the Sufis emphasize him, so much.

Just reading the words of John, makes wonder what did he mean by those words. He said so many things. One question is what did he mean by “believe in him.” It can’t mean just mere belief. Like I believe London exist, even though I have never been, nor see it with my own eyes. It has to mean more that.

I am not interested in just a catholic understanding of it, unless it is from a truly spiritual Saint, preferably a monk, who has witnessed Jesus spiritually and communicates in a two way conversation with The Divine.
Anyway.

No one is asking to change your mind. It takes a calling from God himself. Bashing Islam is really not acceptable here in CAF but to dialogue and defend Catholicism when our Faith in Jesus Christ our God and Savior is being questioned either sincerely or deceptive arguments.

Did you not see see the consistency in the way Jesus answered in John 14 when Phillip asked him to show them (the disciples) the Father? And Jesus’ answer?

I was understand the,Sufi dwelve more into the Spiritual. So it makes sense you are looking into that aspect. There are plenty Christians who were incredible mystics dating from 3rd to 5th centuries. You can research on that.

MJ

 

[TheSufi]

My friend you are not really examining the Gospel properly. You are trying to grab stuff from all over the place. We are from Abrahams faith are we not? Why drag non-Abrahamic religions into this?

I am seriously doubting your methods in trying to understand what Catholics believe.

As of your first part of comments above you have dragged the Church Fathers into your scheme of analysis which is fine but as they lived closer to the times you have to take their words/writings very seriously. They don’t only examine John 10.

For I am short of time let me ask have you read John 14?

MJ

It doesn’t change my view, because I read it from the context, that Jesus is a Jew and thus does not believe God can become a man. Numbers 23:19 “God is not a man… nor the Son of man…”

 

[MartinJordan]

It doesn’t change my view, because I read it from the context, that Jesus is a Jew and thus does not believe God can become a man. Numbers 23:19 “God is not a man… nor the Son of man…”

I WILL reply you on that. But now going off to work. Stay tuned!

MJ

 

[MartinJordan]

It doesn’t change my view, because I read it from the context, that Jesus is a Jew and thus does not believe God can become a man. Numbers 23:19 “God is not a man… nor the Son of man…”

Sorry just realized there is also 1 Samuel 15:29 and Hosea 11:9 that are “related”

MJ

 

[Reuben_J]

It doesn’t change my view, because I read it from the context, that Jesus is a Jew and thus does not believe God can become a man. Numbers 23:19 “God is not a man… nor the Son of man…”

A quote from Num 23:19 is a reminder that God does not lie or change unlike human. It merely speaks about an attribute of God.

(It is about a story of Balaam the sorcerer who was asked by King Balak to curse his enemies, the Israelites. He wanted Balaam to use his powers with God of Israel to place a curse on Israel, hoping that by magic, God would turn against his people. God didn’t because he had made a covenant with them to be their God and them, his people).

A read on Num 22, 23, 24 onward will give you the story.

You are using this to rebut that Jesus cannot be God. That is not the verse though.

Jews knew that human cannot be God that’s why, when Jesus told them that he is God (the I AM) they saw it as blasphemy and proceeded to wanting to kill him. So eventhough the Jews believe that God is not human, Jesus himself told them that he is indeed, God.

You don’t have to change your view at all. If you stay here perhaps you will hear something you have not heard before and that makes you a better apologist for your Islamic faith (if you have a more correct knowledge of other religion).

 

[MartinJordan]

A quote from Num 23:19 is a reminder that God does not lie or change unlike human. It merely speaks about an attribute of God.

Once again Reuben you didn’t give me a chance to explain it my style but let me add one thing to the above. The verse says God is not Man, and not “God cannot be man”.

(It is about a story of Balaam the sorcerer who was asked by King Balak to curse his enemies, the Israelites. He wanted Balaam to use his powers with God of Israel to place a curse on Israel, hoping that by magic, God would turn against his people. God didn’t because he had made a covenant with them to be their God and them, his people).

A read on Num 22, 23, 24 onward will give you the story.

You are using this to rebut that Jesus cannot be God. That is not the verse though.

Yep. I think we also need to look at things before The Book of Numbers , like two examples in Genesis

1. Abraham met the three men-

Genesis 18:20 - And the Lord said: The cry of Sodom and Gomorrha is multiplied, and their sin is become exceedingly grievous. Then Yahweh said, ‘The outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is so great and their sin is so grave, 21 I will go down and see whether they have done according to the cry that is come to me: or whether it be not so, that I may know. That I shall go down and see whether or not their actions are at all as the outcry reaching me would suggest. Then I shall know.’

22 And they turned themselves from thence and went their way to Sodom: but Abraham as yet stood before the Lord.

It seems two departed (angels) and one remained. Thus Abraham is standing in front of a man, who is the Lord!

b. What about Jacob when he faced the Lord in Genesis 32?

Jews knew that human cannot be God that’s why, when Jesus told them that he is God (the I AM) they saw it as blasphemy and proceeded to wanting to kill him. So even though the Jews believe that God is not human, Jesus himself told them that he is indeed, God.

Right.

You don’t have to change your view at all.

However I would always stress on context to anyone picking out a verse.

MJ

 

[Reuben_J]

Once again Reuben you didn’t give me a chance to explain it my style but let me add one thing to the above. The verse says God is not Man, and not “God cannot be man”.



MJ

Couldn’t help it, MJ. The misuse of scriptural verse there is so glaring, anyone would just want to point that out.

Anyway, all yours now. Good examples about the experience of Abraham and Jacob though.

edit: I would say if I paraphrase it, Num 23:19 is something like, “I am God. I am not like you humans who lies and changing for I do not lie and do not change.”

 

[TheSufi]

Once again Reuben you didn’t give me a chance to explain it my style but let me add one thing to the above. The verse says God is not Man, and not “God cannot be man”.

That is a bit of a stretch.

Yep. I think we also need to look at things before The Book of Numbers , like two examples in Genesis

1. Abraham met the three men-

Genesis 18:20 - And the Lord said: The cry of Sodom and Gomorrha is multiplied, and their sin is become exceedingly grievous. Then Yahweh said, ‘The outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is so great and their sin is so grave, 21 I will go down and see whether they have done according to the cry that is come to me: or whether it be not so, that I may know. That I shall go down and see whether or not their actions are at all as the outcry reaching me would suggest. Then I shall know.’

22 And they turned themselves from thence and went their way to Sodom: but Abraham as yet stood before the Lord.

It seems two departed (angels) and one remained. Thus Abraham is standing in front of a man, who is the Lord!

b. What about Jacob when he faced the Lord in Genesis 32?

They were all angels, if you actually study the Old Testament, when ever man interacted with God on a personal level, especially when anthropomorphic descriptions are given, it was an angel. I mean, even with “Virgin Mary,” In Luke it specifically says Gabriel went in unto her, then she was with child. And then Jesus becomes the Son of God. However it appears Jesus was really the son of Gabriel.

Israel wrestling with God, when you look further into the verses, it was an angel. It was part of the eloquence of the hebrew (aramaic language). There is a verse in the old testament that describes God as a man of war. And the old testament is filled with anthropomrophic description of God, yet Jews never saw God as a man.

There is a correlation between angels and God in the old testament.

 

[MartinJordan]

That is a bit of a stretch.

Can you provide a resource from either the Quran or Hadith that talk about this case?

They were all angels, if you actually study the Old Testament, when ever man interacted with God on a personal level, especially when anthropomorphic descriptions are given, it was an angel. I mean, even with “Virgin Mary,” In Luke it specifically says Gabriel went in unto her, then she was with child. And then Jesus becomes the Son of God. However it appears Jesus was really the son of Gabriel.

Please state your facts clearly. Be careful not to insult our Blessed Virgin Mary It’s no use saying such things and for us to take this opinion seriously. Im sorry to say but I feel you are now getting desperate with this.

Israel wrestling with God, when you look further into the verses, it was an angel. It was part of the eloquence of the hebrew (aramaic language). There is a verse in the old testament that describes God as a man of war. And the old testament is filled with anthropomrophic description of God, yet Jews never saw God as a man.

There is a correlation between angels and God in the old testament.

So Islam agrees with Jews now? That Jesus is not who he says he was and it impossible for him to be one of any importance

MJ

 

[MartinJordan]

That is a bit of a stretch.

Can you provide a Quran verse or Hadith atleast talking about this case?

They were all angels, if you actually study the Old Testament, when ever man interacted with God on a personal level, especially when anthropomorphic descriptions are given, it was an angel.

The NT writers clearly understood the Old Testament. There are many Bible verses that talk about how Jesus is God and Man using OT examples.

I mean, even with “Virgin Mary,” In Luke it specifically says Gabriel went in unto her, then she was with child. And then Jesus becomes the Son of God. However it appears Jesus was really the son of Gabriel.

Okay, now you are getting insulting to our Blessed Virgin Mother . I resent such remark when these verses had never been understood such a way, certainly not the way you are describing.

Israel wrestling with God, when you look further into the verses, it was an angel. It was part of the eloquence of the hebrew (aramaic language). There is a verse in the old testament that describes God as a man of war. And the old testament is filled with anthropomrophic description of God, yet Jews never saw God as a man.

There is a correlation between angels and God in the old testament.

30And Jacob called the name of the place Phanuel, saying: I have seen** God **face to face, and my soul has been saved. 31

Let’s also look at Exodus 15: 2 and 3 - The Lord is my strength and my praise, and he is become salvation to me: he is my God and I will glorify him: the God of my father, and I will exalt him.

3The Lord is as a** man of war, Almighty is his name**.

MJ

 

[bsroufek]

It doesn’t change my view, because I read it from the context, that Jesus is a Jew and thus does not believe God can become a man. Numbers 23:19 “God is not a man… nor the Son of man…”

At THAT time, God WAS NOT man, but the prophets prophesied that a God-Man would come:

usccb.org/bible/isaiah/9 verse 5
They name him Wonder-Counselor, God-Hero, Father-Forever, Prince of Peace

You do not understand the OT Prophets, my friend. It was prophesied that God would come as man.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

No problem, you’re correct his wife’s uncle was a christian

I thought it was believed that Muhammed’s wife in the beginning was an Arian christian and her brother was an Arian (heretical) christian priest?

This makes sense, because Islam took on a form of Arian heretical view of Jesus and still holds to a form of Arian heretical view of Jesus. Islam never teaches the true Holy Catholic Apostolic faith of Jesus.

The irony is that Catholics reject the same Christianity that Islam rejects which comes from Arianism.

After the councils defeated the heretical Arians and were exiled, it is believed three forms of Arianism persisted on the fringes of the Roman Empire to include the Arab territories.

Do you have a source that claims it was Muhammad’s wife’s uncle that was christian?

Peace be with you

 

[MartinJordan]

I thought it was believed that Muhammed’s wife in the beginning was an Arian christian and her brother was an Arian (heretical) christian priest?

This makes sense, because Islam took on a form of Arian heretical view of Jesus and still holds to a form of Arian heretical view of Jesus. Islam never teaches the true Holy Catholic Apostolic faith of Jesus.

The irony is that Catholics reject the same Christianity that Islam rejects which comes from Arianism.

After the councils defeated the heretical Arians and were exiled

Do you have a source that claims it was Muhammad’s wife’s uncle that was christian?

Peace be with you

Gabrielof12, while I can see there is this possibility Islam or rather Mohammed was influenced by heretical Arians there is still the question of why there was no talk about or lets say why messages Mohammed received apparently from God, never spoke about the Councils that defended the divinity of Jesus?

If there was any such information info atleast hinting of the Councils right from the “revelations” get go, minimally because they deal with heretics and the Church then we can take seriously Islams claims of Jesus being a prophet at the most and not the begotten Son of God.

MJ

 

[TheSufi]

Can you provide a Quran verse or Hadith atleast talking about this case?

He has no children nor was He born (Quran 112:3)

Okay, now you are getting insulting to our Blessed Virgin Mother . I resent such remark when these verses had never been understood such a way, certainly not the way you are describing.

I too, believe Mary is the Blessed Virgin Mother of Jesus. I was merely showing that if I wanted to create a narrative, outside the one we are use to (Mary being a Virgin), I could also and bring proof support it. I am only aware of this heresy because I came across it a while back. It was rather thought provoking to say the less.

So what does all these mean.

Judaism has a narrative, Christianity has a narrative and Islam has a narrative. And we interpret scripture to prove our narrative. It is our narrative that causes us to denounce new prophets. Jews denounce Jesus not because of lack of proof, but because of the narrative they follow. Similarly Christians denounce Muhammad of because of lack of proof but because it doesn’t fit into the narrative they follow.

Muhammad said that his nation would follow the same footstep in deviancy as the previous nation (ie the followers of Jesus, and the followers of Moses). Why is this important? We too believe in return of Jesus. I say, if I remain firm on our narrative, perhaps I will miss Jesus when he returns. So I have to open minded.

Christian say it is about belief in Christ, surely that isn’t enough. Jesus said, "Many will say to me on that day, Lord Lord have we not prophesied in your name, cast out demons in your name, and done many wonders in your name? And then I will declare, I never knew you."

So with that said, I don’t think the narrative of the modern Catholic church is the same narrative of the early Christians. I even say this about the Muslims, and I think Muslims have a better method of preserving tradition than Christians do. I am in search of the early narrative of the Christians. I think the Catholic are more authentic than the Protestants, but I think the Orthodox are more authentic than the Catholics. I don’t really care what the Council of Nicaea says to a certain extent. What they say does have value, but I am not convinced that it is the narrative of the early Christians.

There were many different types of Christians during the early church, which group of Christians were correct. It only makes sense that each group probably has their origin with one of the disciples of Jesus. It also seems reasonable, that the Jewish early Christians saw Jesus as a man. However it also seems reasonable that the early gentile Christians saw Jesus as God. I think because both groups had roots to one of the disciples, the early Church fathers merged both group together. Essentially what I believe, the reason why Christian believe Jesus is God is because of early gentile Christians who did not have the Jewish narrative to prevent from saying Jesus was God.

I hope that makes sense.

 

[bsroufek]

Jesus said I will be with you always, even until the end of time. And, that He would never
abandon us. Also, that the Holy Spirit would lead us into all truth.

This means that the Church today is just as valid as the Early Church. No need to go back
to the Early Church to find the Truth. These statements of Jesus (above) are also evidence
of His Divinity, being always with us as Our Lord.

 

[dronald]

There were many different types of Christians during the early church, which group of Christians were correct. It only makes sense that each group probably has their origin with one of the disciples of Jesus. It also seems reasonable, that the Jewish early Christians saw Jesus as a man. However it also seems reasonable that the early gentile Christians saw Jesus as God. I think because both groups had roots to one of the disciples, the early Church fathers merged both group together. Essentially what I believe, the reason why Christian believe Jesus is God is because of early gentile Christians who did not have the Jewish narrative to prevent from saying Jesus was God.

I hope that makes sense.

How do you interpret the earliest Christians following Matthew 28:19?

Matthew 28:19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

Who were the Disciples? What were the Disciples meant to believe? And why were they Baptized in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

Also, how do you explain the Didache, written in the mid first Century? 7 Concerning Baptism

7:1 Concerning baptism, you should baptize this way: After first explaining all things, baptize in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, in flowing water.

Also, can you explain if Peter was lying?:
2 Peter:1 16 For we did not follow cleverly devised stories when we told you about the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ in power, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty. 17 He received honor and glory from God the Father when the voice came to him from the Majestic Glory, saying, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.”** 18 We ourselves heard this voice that came from heaven when we were with him on the sacred mountain.

And was Matthew lying when he relayed this story?:

17 :1After six days Jesus took with him Peter, James and John the brother of James, and led them up a high mountain by themselves. 2 There he was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and his clothes became as white as the light. 3 Just then there appeared before them Moses and Elijah, talking with Jesus.

4 Peter said to Jesus, “Lord, it is good for us to be here. If you wish, I will put up three shelters—one for you, one for Moses and one for Elijah.”

5 While he was still speaking, a bright cloud covered them, and a voice from the cloud said, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased. Listen to him!”**