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BelFarfalla
Guest
IF you read what I wrote, I said that I do not believe that any verses are abrogated.can you tell us what is abrogated verses? i will show all ppl here that you dont know islam just copy and paste
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BelFarfalla
Guest
Please do not call people infidels. They were humans, not infidels. The word infidel is an ugly word that makes it seem that the person has no value.
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Verisimilitude
Guest
Why did the direction of prayer change from Jerusalem to Mekka?can you tell us what is abrogated verses? i will show all ppl here that you dont know islam just copy and paste
The fools (pagans, hypocrites, and Jews) among the people will say, âWhat has turned them (Muslims) from their qiblah (prayer direction (towards Jerusalem)) to which they were used to face in prayer.â Say, (O Muhammad SAW) âTo Allah belong both, east and the west. He guides whom He wills to a Straight Way.â
( ŰłÙ۱۩ ۧÙŰšÙ۱۩ , Al-Baqara, Chapter #2, Verse #142)
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BelFarfalla
Guest
Sure what of it do you want me to provide proofs for?
That Muhammad assassinated people so he was a murderer? That he or his people at his command fought and killed thousands? AS evidence I have you the Qurâan and the Hadith.
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ahmadhassan
Guest
is that our topic? anyway i posted an answer in the thread (is allah unchangable)
- itâs no difference from calling us âPapistsâ or âRomanistsâ; neither of these need be offensive 
- but they generally are intended to be.
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Kadaveri
Guest
December 8, 1941 - The USA declares war on Japan.
December 15, 1941 - US submarines sink Japanese merchant ships
January 27, 1942 - Japanese warship sunk by an American submarine
February 1, 1942 - First American aircraft carrier offensive of the war, Yorktown and Enterprise conduct air raids on Japanese bases in the Gilbert and Marshall Islands.
February 24, 1942 - The Enterprise attacks Japanese on Wake Island.
March 4, 1942 - The Enterprise attacks Marcus Island
March 18, 1942 - The War Relocation Authority us established in the USA. which will go on to round up 120,000 Japanese-American civilians and deport them to barb-wired camps
April 18, 1942 - Doolittleâ B-25 raids Tokyo from the Hornet
June 4-5, 1942 - The USA defeats Japan in the Battle of Midway, four Japanese carriers and a cruiser sunk by the American navy
August 7, 1942 - The USA invades Tulagi and Guadalcanal in the Solomon Islands.
August 17, 1942 - American marines attack Makin Atoll in the Gilbert Islands
August 30, 1942 - The USA invades Adak Island in the Aleutian Islands.
April 18, 1943 - American P-38 fighters assassinate Japanese Admiral Yamamoto
May 10, 1943 - American Troops invade Attu in the Aleutian Islands.
June 1, 1943 - The USA begins submarine warfare against Japanese shipping.
July 8, 1943 - American B-24s bomb Japanese on Wake Island.
November 1, 1943 - The USA invades Bougainville in the Solomon Islands.
December 26, 1943 - American marines invade Cape Gloucester.
January 31, 1944 - The USA invades Kwajalein in the Marshall Islands.
June 5, 1944 - 77 American B-29 bomb Japanese railway stations in Thailand.
July 19, 1944 - The USA invades Guam in the Marianas.
October 11, 1944 - The USA raids Okinawa.
November 11, 1944 - Iwo Jima bombarded by the American Navy.
November 24, 1944 - American B-29s bomb aircraft factories near Tokyo.
February 19, 1945 - The USA invades Iwo Jima.
March 1, 1945 - American submarines sink a Japanese merchant ship, despite the ship being granted safe passage
March 9/10 - 279 American B-29s firebomb Tokyo, killing thousands of civilians
August 6, 1945 - Americans drop atomic bomb on Hiroshima killing over 100,000 Japanese civilians
August 9, 1945 - Americans drop atomic bomb on Nagasaki, killing over 30,000 Japanese civilians
August 14, 1945 - Japan surrenders unconditionally
August 29, 1945 - The USA occupies Japan
Tell me, is this timeline of the War in the Pacific during WWII accurate? I bet you couldnât find a single thing there that wasnât accurate, so what could possibly be wrong with it?
December 15, 1941 - US submarines sink Japanese merchant ships
January 27, 1942 - Japanese warship sunk by an American submarine
February 1, 1942 - First American aircraft carrier offensive of the war, Yorktown and Enterprise conduct air raids on Japanese bases in the Gilbert and Marshall Islands.
February 24, 1942 - The Enterprise attacks Japanese on Wake Island.
March 4, 1942 - The Enterprise attacks Marcus Island
March 18, 1942 - The War Relocation Authority us established in the USA. which will go on to round up 120,000 Japanese-American civilians and deport them to barb-wired camps
April 18, 1942 - Doolittleâ B-25 raids Tokyo from the Hornet
June 4-5, 1942 - The USA defeats Japan in the Battle of Midway, four Japanese carriers and a cruiser sunk by the American navy
August 7, 1942 - The USA invades Tulagi and Guadalcanal in the Solomon Islands.
August 17, 1942 - American marines attack Makin Atoll in the Gilbert Islands
August 30, 1942 - The USA invades Adak Island in the Aleutian Islands.
April 18, 1943 - American P-38 fighters assassinate Japanese Admiral Yamamoto
May 10, 1943 - American Troops invade Attu in the Aleutian Islands.
June 1, 1943 - The USA begins submarine warfare against Japanese shipping.
July 8, 1943 - American B-24s bomb Japanese on Wake Island.
November 1, 1943 - The USA invades Bougainville in the Solomon Islands.
December 26, 1943 - American marines invade Cape Gloucester.
January 31, 1944 - The USA invades Kwajalein in the Marshall Islands.
June 5, 1944 - 77 American B-29 bomb Japanese railway stations in Thailand.
July 19, 1944 - The USA invades Guam in the Marianas.
October 11, 1944 - The USA raids Okinawa.
November 11, 1944 - Iwo Jima bombarded by the American Navy.
November 24, 1944 - American B-29s bomb aircraft factories near Tokyo.
February 19, 1945 - The USA invades Iwo Jima.
March 1, 1945 - American submarines sink a Japanese merchant ship, despite the ship being granted safe passage
March 9/10 - 279 American B-29s firebomb Tokyo, killing thousands of civilians
August 6, 1945 - Americans drop atomic bomb on Hiroshima killing over 100,000 Japanese civilians
August 9, 1945 - Americans drop atomic bomb on Nagasaki, killing over 30,000 Japanese civilians
August 14, 1945 - Japan surrenders unconditionally
August 29, 1945 - The USA occupies Japan
Tell me, is this timeline of the War in the Pacific during WWII accurate? I bet you couldnât find a single thing there that wasnât accurate, so what could possibly be wrong with it?
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BelFarfalla
Guest
And your point is?
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mark_a
Guest
I check your profile to try to tell where you are âcoming fromâ. I see you are a non-theist.I donât sympathize with either Christianity or Islam particularly. But I know itâs tough being a curious outsider. And Iâm trying to encourage dialogue and friendship among everyone here. Why? Eh, itâs a compulsion with me, I suppose. Overactive empathy gland or something.
Is this not the same as an a-theist? If not, how do the two differ?
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Kadaveri
Guest
My point is the timeline youâve presented in the opening post (from after 622AD) is of the same nature as the one I presented; it focuses purely on one party devoid of historical context. You canât just jump from Muhammad (saaw) arriving in Medina to the Battle of Badr as if nothing happened in between.
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Verisimilitude
Guest
So post all of the good things Muhammad did after 622AD. Or before 622AD. Can you show him in a positive light?
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BelFarfalla
Guest
Many here understand the history from before and after 622AD. The point is that many do not believe that Muhammad had to be violent. We do not believe the excuses Muslims make for him.
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Verisimilitude
Guest
Iâll think about spending more money to discover more about Muhammad. I have read this biography of Muhammad. It was fair to him and Islam.
The problem with most books about Muhammad are either they heap so many superlatives on him that it becomes aggravatingly tiresome, or they call him an outright demon-spawn. Neither of which allow the man to come through clearly.
When I was younger I had a problem with the Nicene Creed when we said it in mass.
This line in particular:
I misunderstood the use of the word catholic, thinking instead it was trying to force me to acknowledge the Catholic Church as an institution. Even 30 years ago I was aware of how some priests and other Catholics did not follow what they preached. This bothered me a great deal. Hypocracy is not an ideal I thought Jesus preached, and knowing He didnât upset me. In fact I seem to remember the creed printed with the âcâ capitalized at the church we attended way back when, but I could be wrong.
I could not in good conscience say that line of the creed in Mass with that understanding I had, and gradually left the Church as a practicing Catholic. I grew up, I studiedâŠas many of us do.
The point is I had a problem with any âhuman churchâ messing up what God had done. It is easy to read the OT and see how men (Jews) would act contrary to what God had commanded in many cases. (It was also evident where they followed His Law too).
It is easy to read the history of the Catholic Church and see that despite what is written in the Gospels, at times the members of the Catholic Church also failed in upholding their office. Itâs a little different with Islam- ok, a lot different with Islam.
I solved my issue with the Creed, and can separate the members from the Faith when they are in conflcit becasue teh fiath is clear if not the action in practice by others as well as myself. I have since returned to being a practicing Catholic- still with warts and questions, but I do feel at home again.
The biggest problem I have with Islam is Muhammad. Similar to my problem with the Creed, I have a major issue with the first pillar of Islam.
Just as I falsely thought the Catholic Church was indoctrinating Catholics to make the Church paramount, Islam actually makes Muhammad paramount. Though Muslims will cite passages that say Muhammad was only a warner, the very act of placing Muhammad near equal in importance to allah as the messenger almost dismisses the message. (If that were only so!) Everything centers around that man, from how to wash, what to eat, and rules of war.
Some Muslims may say the âradical terroristsâ are not practicing Islam as intended, but even a fair reading of Muhammads life can show justification for the terrorist acts which is what the âradicalsâ use as justification.
Muhammad is not worthy of such praise. How a reasonable human being, Muslim or not, can justify and excuse the many unsavory events and actions done by Muhammad is shamefull in my opinion. On many levels it is offensive to know Muslims elevate him over Christ in humility, charity, grace, and most of all Love. Even if Muslims do not accept the divinity of Christ there is no justification to say Muhammad exceeded Christ in any element of personality. None whatsoever.
Take Muhammad away and Islam ceases to exist for Allah will be seen as it really is: the pagan god Muhammad elevated and transformed.
Take Christ away and the Hebrew God remains; unfulfilled.
Put Jesus Christ in the picture, as He is recorded in the Gospel- a record of His life, death, and resurrection (600 years before Muhammad) makes clear without the need for exhaustive commentary like the Jews give to âproveâ the Messiah is yet to come, or the unbelievable justification Muslims give in defense of Muhammad and stripping away from Jesus His rightfull due.
The Truth of things is actually very simple and common sense need not be suspended to see it.
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Verisimilitude
Guest
Iâll offer you the same challange as I offered hamba2han, if you are willing. He rejected the offer. I will read one of the two books you mentioned above (you pick which one) if you read this book. Then we can have a discussion here. How about it?
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paarsurrey
Guest
Hi
For a short, peaceful and truthful account of Muhammadâs life, you might like to read
alislam.org/books/
Introduction to the Study of Holy Quran (English)
from the Official Website of the Ahmadiyya Muslim Community
You wonât have problems enumerated by you above.
Thanks
Muhammad had a marvelous record of a peace loving person for 40+13+2=55 years, he joined in welfare activities if there was any in Mecca, he helped the needy and in distress, he stood for the human cause, he never harmed any person. His record in these 55 years is clean by any standards.
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Mickey
Guest
Is 55 years his life span? Or did other things transpire after 55 years?
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paarsurrey
Guest
Hi
I think if a man is examplary peaceful and loving and caring for long 55 years, it is reasonable to believe that he would be as such for the rest of his life.
Thanks
The first forty years i.e. before Muhammad was appointed ProphetMessenger by GodAllahYHWH has been offered as a reasonable argument/challenge in Quran before Infidels-of-Mecca, and they could not deny its truthfulness.
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paarsurrey
Guest
Hi
Yes, Muhammad lived up to the age of 63 years, and things transpire after the age of 55 years but unless we understand about his early age we cannot know the true perspective of the things. We are not fighting here; we are discussing things here to get an understanding of both faiths for world peace. It is for sure that neither could Muslims wipe out the Christians from this world though they are weak in the present world scenario, nor could Christians wipe out the Muslims, though they are strong in weaponry etc. We have to make it possible and pleasant to co-exist in this beautiful world, with all the religions, the Jews, the Christians, the Muslim, the Hindus, the Buddhists and Zoroastrians etc, etc, and even with the Atheists.
To understand this let us start from the JesusYeshuaIssa.
The Christians as well as Muslims believe that Jesus was a peaceful person; he always talked with wisdom and tried to convince others with rationality, reasons and arguments. There are no two opinions about Jesus being peaceful. Yet we find following words on record from JesusYeshuaIssa in the Catholic NTBible.
Luke 12:49-51 (NIV)
Not Peace but Division
49"I have come to bring fire on the earth, and how I wish it were already kindled! 50But I have a baptism to undergo, and how distressed I am until it is completed! 51Do you think I came to bring peace on earth? No, I tell you, but division.
Unquote
And I think that you already know that at one time Jesus commanded his Apostles to sell their clothes and buy swords. What do they do with the sword? It is not used to cut vegetables for eating, of course. In spite of all this Jesus is regarded as a peaceful person, I also believe as such. So if things are to be interpreted and clarified for Jesus: why not for Moses, Krishna and Muhammad. There is no harm to understand the true perspective of the events, after all the Catholics are not being suggested to convert to Jews or Hindus or Muslims; they remain steadfast to their faith, and try to understand the things peacefully. Not a big deal.
Thanks
The West, as I understand, due to certain disinformation has seen only MullahIslam or MullahShariah; the true face of peaceful and human loving Muhammad and his religion Islam and Islam of PromisedMessiahImamMahdi is yet hidden from their eyes, which is truly speaking moral and peaceful.
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Rodrigo_Bivar
Guest
Sorry to be blunt here paarsurrey, but I donât think anyone here will agree to just âwipe outâ Muhammadâs last 12 years just because his first 55 years were âpeacefulâ.
When God judges a man he will judge him for all his days. Not just the first 55 years.
So being âpeacefulâ for the first 55 years does not give you a âfree passâ to commit rape, banditry, torture, murder, war-mongering, torture, polygamy, lechery, enslavement and paedophilia.
I know that is your one and only point here - which you repeat endlessly but repetition does not make it true. Nobody gets a âfree passâ to commit crimes and immorality just because theyâre been âpeacefulâ for the first 55 years of their life.
Most people are actually âpeacefulâ all their lives - hence most people are better than Muhammad.
I Rodrigo
When God judges a man he will judge him for all his days. Not just the first 55 years.
So being âpeacefulâ for the first 55 years does not give you a âfree passâ to commit rape, banditry, torture, murder, war-mongering, torture, polygamy, lechery, enslavement and paedophilia.
I know that is your one and only point here - which you repeat endlessly but repetition does not make it true. Nobody gets a âfree passâ to commit crimes and immorality just because theyâre been âpeacefulâ for the first 55 years of their life.
Most people are actually âpeacefulâ all their lives - hence most people are better than Muhammad.
I Rodrigo
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