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Salibi
Guest
Correct. Patriarchal mentalities can be dismantled and Middle Eastern/ South Asian/ African cultures wouldn’t disappear.
Correct again!
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Jen95
Guest
So, in general, Islamic culture(s) are not characterized by a patriarchal mentality? There are Islamic cultures that are matriarchal?Jen95:
Correct. Patriarchal mentalities can be dismantled and Middle Eastern/ South Asian/ African cultures wouldn’t disappear.
Correct again!
https://www.globalcitizen.org/en/content/islam-and-patriarchy-and-why-its-important-to-unde/
Here’s a quote:
“To break it down further, Mernissi thinks this: Islam isn’t patriarchal, but patriarchy has been heavily involved in the history of the middle east, and have subsequently seeped into the ways Muslims practice their faith.”
So, wouldn’t you say that patriarchy is currently a cultural part of Islam? I can see that it isn’t inherently so, but I think you are being disingenuous to say that Islam has nothing to do with honor killings in this day and age.
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Salibi
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I’m sorry, I currently don’t have time to read the whole article.
However, I think this
However, I think this
Is correct, because Arab culture (if we’re talking Middle East) is indeed patriarchal in many aspects. But “patriarchal culture” doesn’t have to mean murdering women is done a daily basis. It means that a framework exists where women can be oppressed, abused, raped, etc… (and even blamed for the above, as in “you got beaten because you did x and y), but this doesn’t mean that such oppression happens all the time or is done by everyone, merely that a sickos may take advantage of it to do it.
Errm… no I wouldn’t. Anymore than I would say white supremacism is a cultural part of America. Because you see, Islam doesn’t require patriarchy to be practiced or to function. If you’d said that patriarchal attitudes are commonly exhibited by many of those who practice Islam, then I would’ve agreed with you one hundred percent. But you said that patriarchy is a part of Islam, and I’m sorry, but I don’t agree with that.
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Peaceable
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Many immigrant communities share similar concerns and morality—you don’t have to be Catholic or even religious to share concerns about the state of society in general. In fact this is an opportunity for groups to work in an interfaith way on common issues.
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Cirdan_XII
Guest
It is an opportunity in theory. Experience shows that religious and minority groups are not very efficient at working together. For example, Muslims have problems with abortion too, but I have yet to see Muslims joining in on anti abortion marches in large numbers. There is also a certain tendency to take better care of their own than of the children of other denominations. When I was a kid back in the 1980s, kids from my class would go to Muslim shops to buy pornography or cigarettes. But they wouldn’t sell that stuff to Muslim kids. Not to mention the recent scandals about sex abuse in places like Rotherham. These were maybe the deeds of isolated and sick individuals but much of the community including the leaders knew but looked the other way. But if this would have happened to one of their own they would not have tolerated it. For example a Muslim girl in my school was killed by her uncle because she was caught dating a black guy. In other words they have one set of morals within their own community and another on the outside. Obviously not all and maybe not even most and obviosuly not everywhere, but sufficient numbers that in many places it offsets any positive coming from cooperation.
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Mary888
Guest
Not really. On top of all local traditions of each nation, there is an overall Christian/Catholic culture that is common.
Multi-culturalism is also about knowing local customs of many cultures that may include rites that are not morally acceptable in your own culture. Example given - a Muslim having more than one wife, Hindu society divided by casts, Roma people living as vagrants as a custom not need etc.
In the Church even if say an African couple may have an underage spouse because it is a local custom to marry younger, you still cannot break certain cultural rules that are set above the custom and marry more than one wife in a Christian rite, or believe that the casts are divinely imposed etc.
The multiculturalism in EU is really about not commenting on others cultures as “the European way” of allowing anyone to live as they please.
However when they banned burkhas in Austria and other places, is EU really multi-cultural or is that just propaganda to present an invented 'European way", as a super-culture to be imposed on all other cultures included in it (local European cultures and migrant cultures)? Because once they ban an aspect in a culture multiculturalism is gone. For example they banned crosses at work in UK in order to “not offend the Muslim co-workers”. What? The Muslims do not care about crosses, the only cares about religious signs being too religious is the Brussels Government that leans towards socialism and is using any conflict to its advantage.
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Cirdan_XII
Guest
I believe that multiculturalism only works if, in the most significant points, there is agreement or at least understanding between the cultures. So basic concepts of right and wrong and acceptable and not acceptable do not need to be discussed and argued over ever time they occur but that it goes without saying that at least in the big picture, there is agreement across cultural boundaries.
In other words, multiculturaism is easier the more similar cultures are, and by consequence, the more different they are, the more difficult it is for such a society to work. In some cases it needs a fair degree of authoritarianism on the part of the government to make things work. So rather than there being mutual consensus over whether or not it is Ok to wear a burka or eat rhino meat, there has to be an authoritarian decison from above saying, you can do this, you cannot do this.
Socialists like authoritarianism and this may be why they like extreme multiculturalism because it is only when consensus and goodwill breaks down that people look to government and welcome it when they make strict rules.
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Peaceable
Guest
Not all members of minority groups relish protests. Protest is not the only form of interfaith work.
I don’t think this a reflection of a lack of care, but not wanting to impose their beliefs on others. Hence the value of interfaith activities to support common goals, where it is established that everyone shares the common goal. It’s also the case while the west stereotypes the East as patriarchal and backwards, the East stereotypes the west as inherently overly decadent. The shop owner may have thought he was giving western folks what they actually wanted, along with, say, cigarettes, little realizing pornography is looked down upon as strongly by some westerners. Interfaith forums can correct these stereotypes.
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Peaceable
Guest
See Salibi’s point on this one. Honor killings are not the norm and there are bad apples in every lot.
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Annie
Guest
However, Muslims protest about other issues.
Selling cigarettes or porn to minors is illegal. it’s not like non-Muslims have not made it clear what their beliefs are in this area.
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Peaceable
Guest
Oops missed the selling to minors part. No one should be doing that, but again I worry about branding a whole community based on a few bad actors—as there are bad actors in every community.
From what I see, and I’m not Muslim, true of any immigrant group, they historically tended to protest little. Where I saw more public expressions of social justice issues was post 9/11 when their (and the safety of others) was at stake. Hard to protest publicly when you feel you lack credibility or feel threatened by mainstream society.
Having said that, it’s also possible they have different views of social change (one Muslim site I saw talks about the way to reduce abortions is not to legislate and protest, to support women who feel pressured—economically, for instance). There are more ways that interfaith groups can work together to really promote change other than protests or legislation.
From what I see, and I’m not Muslim, true of any immigrant group, they historically tended to protest little. Where I saw more public expressions of social justice issues was post 9/11 when their (and the safety of others) was at stake. Hard to protest publicly when you feel you lack credibility or feel threatened by mainstream society.
Having said that, it’s also possible they have different views of social change (one Muslim site I saw talks about the way to reduce abortions is not to legislate and protest, to support women who feel pressured—economically, for instance). There are more ways that interfaith groups can work together to really promote change other than protests or legislation.
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Annie
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And I also worry about branding a whole community as good because some of the people are good, and thus ignoring that some of them are not good.
Or of being so afraid to violate multicultural correctness that bad acts are ignored altogether, as happened in a few towns in England.
Basically, treating people like members of groups instead of as individuals leads to problems, and it is possibly in this area that the idea of multiculturalism causes problems, because multiculturalism, while seeming to be the opposite of nationalism or racism or ethnism etc., is actually simply a reversal of the direction of forces rather than an improvement.
blackforest
Well-known member
There’s nuance to this. A good number of Muslims believe that abortion is acceptable during the first trimester. What Does Sharia Really Say About Abortion in Islam | MuslimMatters.org
Then you consider how few Muslims there are, and fewer still who show up at protests in the U.S. There’s also the tension they can often feel when forming these unorthodox alliances, as this Muslim did at the the March for Life in D.C. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...mmon-ground-between-evangelicals-and-muslims/
Rest assured, pro-life Muslims are out there. I’d like to see pro-life Catholics coax them more out of hiding.
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poche
Guest
Where i live in the United States there are different communities with their own traditions and particular histories. I think it would be good for us to take this situation into account in how we relate to one another.
Tis_Bearself
Patron
You may know this already, but statements like this just sound strange to US ears.
Most of us grew up learning about all kinds of different cultures because it’s highly unlikely everyone on our street or even in our Catholic church or school was from the same culture.
I understand it’s different in small countries/ regions with a strong national identity that kind of revolves around everybody sharing the same culture, same values, etc. but that’s Europe, it’s not the USA.
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Tis_Bearself
Patron
And lots of Catholics with that background are already here in the States.
blackforest
Well-known member
I’m curious what types of parishes people in this thread attend. Whether or not you cringe at the mention of multiculturalism, what are the demographics of your parish? Is your priest from another country? Does your parish offer a Mass in another language, like Spanish, Tagalog, or Vietnamese?
There are few case studies in multiculturalism more quintessential than the Catholic Church itself.
There are few case studies in multiculturalism more quintessential than the Catholic Church itself.
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Annie
Guest
What is your definition of culture?
Tis_Bearself
Patron
Almost nobody in this thread is “cringing at the mention of multiculturalism” except the OP, who is from a European country which until recent years has been fairly homogeneous for a long time. Almost everyone ansewring the OP seems to be from USA and many of us have already stated that we live/ work around diverse groups of people, which likely includes having some racial and ethnic diversity in our parishes.
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