Multiculturalism?

[jesusmademe]

But actually, the real problem is never immigration. The real problem I see is this: people are homeless, kids watch hard core porn, kids use drugs, masturbation is said to be ok, contraception is used, people are never taught how to sing hymns, consumerism and black friday (even in sweden).
Is immigration even the root of all issue we have? No!

 

[tafan2]

The Church embraces any culture that does not reject Christ ( it doesn’t have to accept Christ, but cannot expel Christ).
The Church considers it good that we have distinct cultures.
It is good to know and understand other cultures.
We do not have to incorporate them into our own, but at times this of course naturally occurs for various reasons.

And of course the Catholic Church is very much a part of Western culture, which is result of a merging of Jerusalem, Athens, and Rome. As such the Church holds Western culture in high regard.

 

[Aquinas11]

Is immigration even the root of all issue we have? No!

Correct hence in CCC 2241 countries only required “to extent they are able” to bring in more immigrants. If you have (as in USA), over 50k suicides per year, over 50k drug overdoses, a healthcare crisis and mounting public debt then I don’t see how that country is able to bring in more people.

 

[Peaceable]

This doesn’t seem to be a problem in the US… I don’t see why immigration necessarily implies the legal issues you discuss.

 

[Aquinas11]

Ok let me give 2 specific examples in US

(1) Dong Lu Chen: Chinese immigrant, found out wife cheated on him. Killed her with a claw hammer. At trial he had scores of academic college professors testify that in his Chinese culture, a wife committing adultery is very dishonorable and thus killing her with claw hammer very reasonable. He ended up getting probation

(2) Zein & Maria Isa: Palestine immigrant parents who found out daughter was dating African American boy and killed her. Worst part was FBI already had home bugged for suspected terrorism so the entire murder caught on tape. You can hear mother yelling “shut up!” as she holds her daughter down and Dad kills her. Then at trial they also have scores of experts play the defense of “in their native culture, a daughter dating another race is very shameful and killing her customary and we need to be sensitive to their culture” This is Multiculturalism. Then at sentencing Mother had no remorse saying “My daughter was very disrespectful and very rebellious,” she said. “We should not have to pay with our lives for something she did.”

 

[Peaceable]

Attorneys for the defense will try any defense they can in an adversarial system. Doesn’t mean it will or should be honored. Plenty of these honor killing situations/ defenses don’t get the time of day in court. And yes, there can be “bad calls” legally. Doesn’t disprove my original point.

 

[Lea101]

Multiculturalism seems to force us to learn about all kinds of different cultures. How is that even possible. It is not. We cannot learn about let’s sy 15 different cultures. In fact in one culture there a subcultures

As someone who live in a multi cultural country all her life, I don’t really get the criticism. Unless we’re working with different definitions.

There are many cultures in my country. The natives are a minority. There are 3 main cultures here, but like you said, there are many smaller minorities living here.

You’re not forced to learn every single thing. We were taught the main ones in formal education, but we learn about each other through friendships and days set aside to commemorate it (schools and some workplaces celebrate days like Racial Harmony Day).

Regarding policy, public housing and schools have race quotas to ensure we don’t end up with segregation.

It doesn’t elicit havoc like westerners thing it does. It’s not uncommon to see a mosque beside a church. There is racism, but much less and violent that other areas. In fact, the people least tolerant are actually the younger generations who abandon religion to be ‘intellectual’.

It’s important to have an overarching national culture, obviously. Muslims here for example, are very different from Muslims in say, Iran. You can let people in and allow them to celebrate their customs, but still enforce a national culture (e.g. No executing people based on sexual orientation).

 

[Peaceable]

By the way, Asian groups protested the first decision.

 

[Aquinas11]

Attorneys for the defense will try any defense they can in an adversarial system.

But only the attorneys of foreign born immigrants can use the defense of “in my native culture, this is not a crime”

And it’s not just the attorneys , it’s academics, it’s media, it’s much of the entire pro Multicultural movement that’s behind it.

Doesn’t disprove my original point.

Sure it does because only immigrants can use this defense and they clearly are using it and getting away with it (probation for murdering your wife with a claw hammer)

And yes, there can be “bad calls” legally.

Bad call? That’s what they call a referee who doesn’t call a foul in a game. This is a mother holding her own daughter down while the father stabs her and then asserting their native culture permits it. And multiculturalism says they are correct! We must be sensitive to all cultures!

 

[Peaceable]

Attorneys also use the defense someone is an “upstanding citizen,” and a “good Christian” which are not defenses many minorities can use. I repeat, an attorney can and will use anything to defend their client. Doesn’t mean it will (or should) hold water.

To your second point, see my initial point, many Asian groups protested the first decision as not good. It made headlines because the “this is normal in my native country” defense often doesn’t hold water. In other words a “bad call.”

Bad call? That’s what they call a referee who doesn’t call a foul in a game. This is a mother holding her own daughter down while the father stabs her and then asserting their native culture permits it . And multiculturalism says they are correct! We must be sensitive to all cultures!

As you know, there are other uses of the phrase “Bad call” meaning nothing more or less than “Bad decison.” It was a bad decision.

Nobody thinks this is a trivial case or murder is trivial. This precisely why, again, multicultually minded Asian groups protested this decision. If anyone takes this decision seriously, it’s Asian American who disagree this is culturally appropriate and don’t want to be falsely associated with this behavior.

Sorry, as much as you feel “multiculturalists” (whomever you feel they are), support this decision and ones like this, it doesn’t support the clearly reported reality.

 

[po18guy]

Probably how Sweden is to cope with the influx of Muslims whose leaders demand that Sweden change radically so as to accommodate them.

 

[Peaceable]

Don’t necessarily agree with everything here, but the general point makes sense. I do worry when immigrants get scapegoated for all of a society’s ills.

 

[Aquinas11]

Attorneys also use the defense someone is an “upstanding citizen,” and a “good Christian” which are not defenses many minorities can use

I know many minorities who are “upstanding citizens” and “good Christians”, what a deeply disturbing statement

I repeat, an attorney can and will use anything to defend their client.

I repeat, only the attorneys of foreign immigrants have the “in my native culture, this is not a crime” defense

many Asian groups protested the first decision as not good.

Wait , if it’s not good then we shouldn’t be sensitive of cultures of immigrants? That’s what the Judge did. Can’t have it both ways

It made headlines because the “this is normal in my native country” defense often doesn’t hold water. In other words a “bad call.”

So since it made headlines it “doesn’t hold water”? The fact that it got him probation shows it holds lots of water

It was a bad decision.

But if that’s true, we shouldn’t consider culture of foreign born immigrants in criminal proceedings

Sorry, as much as you feel “multiculturalists” (whomever you feel they are), support this decision and ones like this, it doesn’t support the clearly reported reality.

But if they don’t support those decisions which were premised on sensitivity to foreign born immigrant cultures, then what do multiculturalists support?

 

[Peaceable]

1. I’m glad you know many minorities who are Christians and or Upstanding Citizens! I do too!

The fact remains many minorities are a) not citizens and can’t use the citizen defense and b) many minorities aren’t Christians and can’t use the Good Christian defense. The point is that nonminorities have privilege based defenses too, if your point is that you feel the minority cultures have privileged defenses. There are defenses you can use that I can’t and vice versa.

1. You are assuming that those who feel it’s important to be sensitive to issues involving immigrants feel any seemingly pro-immigrant decision is correct. Your assumption is incorrect-pro-immigrant groups are not as black and white as you assume. It only appears people are having it both ways because your initial assumption was incorrect.

3)on the “holding water” comment— you have my point backwards. It made headlines because it was (First) seen as not holding water. Not the other way around.

1. should cultural concepts ever be brought in? Depends on the specific Western legal issue at stake and facts of the case. Just like any other factor. This is not a multicultural issue, per se

But if they don’t support those decisions which were premised on sensitivity to foreign born immigrant cultures, then what do multiculturalists support?

Excellent question. Let’s begin with the premise that there is some monolithic group of folks that are “multiculturalists.” I don’t believe it exists. Most beliefs exist on a continuum, which labels like this one obscure. Labels like this one discredit the rational valid beliefs of others.

I’m old enough to recall the original (or near original) uses of the word “multicultural” or “multiculturalism” in my country to mean an awareness of the value of minority cultures, some disadvantaged, as they contribute positively to the whole of society, and includes European cultures as well (examples include discussions of Irish-Americans and Italian-Americans). It was the idea that went along with an idea of citizenship and belonging. It also later was an attempt to level the playing field for historically disadvantaged groups. Through bilingual education, for instance, to get kids to the point they can be mainstreamed.

Whether or not you believe they playing field should be leveled, it certainly was not this straw man idea of “people from other cultures should be able to murder at will or impose their religion on others.” This view of “multiculturalist” seems to serve a primary role of stirring division by projecting a false monolithic other, and ignoring reasoned beliefs that some number of people might have. (Just my opinion here). Worse, it feeds into scapegoating others who may get targeted as a result of this false projection. At a (Very bare) minimum it is uncharitable.

 

[Aquinas11]

The point is that nonminorities have privilege based defenses too, if your point is that you feel the minority cultures have privileged defenses.

You introduced the term “minorities” so that wouldn’t be my point

those who feel it’s important to be sensitive to issues involving immigrants feel any seemingly pro-immigrant decision is correct.

No those who feel it’s important to be sensitive to issues involving immigrants feel a decision sensitive to issues involving immigrants is correct.

Labels like this one discredit the rational valid beliefs of others.

But it doesn’t discredit “minorities” to suggest many don’t meet the “upstanding citizen” and “good Christian” labels.

I’m old enough to recall the original (or near original) uses of the word “multicultural” or “multiculturalism” in my country to mean an awareness of the value of minority cultures, some disadvantaged, as they contribute positively to the whole of society,

So it excludes awareness of minority cultures not contributing positively to society? Then why push back on cultural sensitivity used to rationalize the murder of innocent people?

This view of “multiculturalist” seems to serve a primary role of stirring division by projecting a false monolithic other, and ignoring reasoned beliefs that some number of people might have. (Just my opinion here). Worse, it feeds into scapegoating others who may get targeted as a result of this false projection. At a (Very bare) minimum it is uncharitable.

You still haven’t answered the question which is answering the question. You can’t rationally oppose multiculturalism and these killings since condemning the killings means being insensitive to another culture

But after you said many “minorities” aren’t “upstanding citizens” and “good Christians” it’s ironic you’d write all that

 

[Peaceable]

It appears you’re not understanding that

1. I do believe minorities can be Christians and Upstanding citizens. What I am saying is some minorities are either non Christians or Non Citizens. Thus these folks can’t use the good citizen or good Christian defense. Because they are either non Christian or non citizen.
2. You are defining multiculturalism as blindly supporting any issue that demonstrates seeming sensitivity to immigrant or minority issues. This is a straw man. The apparent inconsistency comes out of this false premise.

I’m repeating myself at this point, so not replying further in favor of more pie…

 

[jesusmademe]

But only the attorneys of foreign born immigrants can use the defense of “in my native culture, this is not a crime”

Is this really how it works in the USA?
Seems kinda stupid. A Chinese in the USA who doesnt need to follow American laws just sounds crazy.

 

[Aquinas11]

I do believe minorities can be Christians and Upstanding citizens

You said “many minorities” can’t be both which is disturbing

You are defining multiculturalism as blindly supporting any issue that demonstrates seeming sensitivity to immigrant or minority issues.

In multiple posts you’ve refused to condemn
(1) a man killing his wife with a claw hammer for cheating on him
(2) parents tying their daughter down and killing her for dating an African American

because both killers asserted foreign cultural norms in the killings and thus multiculturalism forbids you condemning the killings.

 

[Cirdan_XII]

But actually, the real problem is never immigration. The real problem I see is this: people are homeless, kids watch hard core porn, kids use drugs, masturbation is said to be ok, contraception is used, people are never taught how to sing hymns, consumerism and black friday (even in sweden).
Is immigration even the root of all issue we have? No!

Not the case maybe, but it is connected. It’s all a part of the government being unwilling to do things that will help the people who are already their and fix their problems. Instead they invite over a new bunch of people so they can fix the problems of those people instead.

In other words, if you don’t want to fix a problem, make an even bigger problem and people won’t notice you didn’t fix the first problem.

If you want to do something about crumbling moraility, teenage sex, masturbation etc etc what you really need first and foremost is to strengthen the faith. You need Catholic culture as carried and diseminated by Catholic schhols, Catholic parishes, catholic clergy, in brief a Catholic society.

Instead you get a whole lot of non Catholics forced to live in your community, people who in many cases have an active loathing for Catholicism and Christianity, and that objective becomes much more difficult to realize. And then as if to give a big kick in the teeth to the grassroots people who have been trying to defend that catholic society, the bishops even welcome these changes.

And if you ask them why they think like that, then they tell you, we need people to work in our factrories, to pay our pensions, to make sure we can continue living the good life. In other words, better to be rich without faith than poor with faith.

 

[jesusmademe]

Instead you get a whole lot of non Catholics forced to live in your community, people who in many cases have an active loathing for Catholicism and Christianity,

That person could be a Swede!