Multiverses/Parallel Universes/Other Dimensions

[Hope1960]

If there were two different universes, would it be the same Trinity for both universes or would it be different. For example, the Son Incarnate has a specific body in this universe which has risen from the dead. Would it be the same or different in the second universe. And various theories speculate that there are 10^500 different universes.

I don’t know, but when I think of a multiverse, I think that there is one Jesus, one God of all of them.

 

[Hope1960]

Firstly, string theory is just that, theory. And it’s been modified since it’s inception.

If we think about atoms in relation to the multi-dimension question we should see it poses no threat to us (and when science seeks and finds truth we know it cannot threaten us as Catholics, because science cannot contradict God and Natural Law). I’ve seen diagrams of atoms and quarks but I’ve not seen one in real life, as it were. There was a point where atoms weren’t a “thing” yet in the scientific community. Discovering another layer that composes the physical universe we are able to perceive doesn’t contradict what we hold true as Catholics- it merely offers the opportunity to do what many saints have done and recommended, and that is to study Creation more closely to know God better. Obviously you’ll have issues when science is pursued from an atheistic camp. Below is a link from a Protestant pastor, Louie Giglio, that illustrates what I’m driving at. It’s 40 minutes but I think it’s worth the watch, especially if you’re a science geek or find science threatening to your faith.

That video was awesome!

 

[AlNg]

when I think of a multiverse, I think that there is one Jesus, one God of all of them.

Would the Mother of God, Mary, be the same, even though it is in an entirely different universe? And the mother of Mary be the same St. Anne in a different universe? Or would it be a different person? I thought that one person can only be in one universe and not two?

 

[RKS89]

Glad you liked it! They showed it during RCIA, I share it a lot.

 

[Gorgias]

Is this an official teaching of the Church that we must believe or your opinion?

It is the teaching of the Church that God and the angels are pure spirit.

It is the teaching of the Church that God created all of Creation from nothing.

If we take these two teachings together, in the context of your question or whether heaven is merely a physical dimension, we have to ask the question, “where was God prior to creation? Are you suggesting merely that He built creation and then ‘moved in’, so to speak?”

And back to my OP, are Catholics allowed to believe in other dimensions or a multiverse? Several posters here say we are.

The Church doesn’t teach science. Science teaches that possibility that other dimensions and universes exist. The Church doesn’t take positions on science, per se.

 

[Hope1960]

The Church doesn’t teach science. Science teaches that possibility that other dimensions and universes exist. The Church doesn’t take positions on science, per se.

So to be clear, are you saying that the Church allows us to believe that there are other dimensions and Universes?

 

[Gorgias]

So to be clear, are you saying that the Church allows us to believe that there are other dimensions and Universes?

No. I’m saying that the Church doesn’t comment on the question.

It would be akin to saying “does the Church allow us to eat turkey on Thanksgiving?” (The Church neither ‘allows’ nor ‘disallows’ it – rather, it has no comment.)

 

[Hope1960]

No. I’m saying that the Church doesn’t comment on the question.

It would be akin to saying “does the Church allow us to eat turkey on Thanksgiving?” (The Church neither ‘allows’ nor ‘disallows’ it – rather, it has no comment.)

Ok, so if the Church neither allows it or disallows it, I take that to mean it’s ok for me to believe that.

 

[Gorgias]

Ok, so if the Church neither allows it or disallows it, I take that to mean it’s ok for me to believe that.

To believe in the possibility that they exist? Sure.

To think that heaven is a part of creation, though? No, that would be a theological statement, and the Church doesn’t make that claim.

 

[Hope1960]

To believe in the possibility that they exist? Sure.

To think that heaven is a part of creation, though? No, that would be a theological statement, and the Church doesn’t make that claim.

Then if the Church doesn’t make the claim that Heaven isn’t a part of creation, what does She say? I mean, I’ve read that JPII said Heaven is a state of mind (or state of being) but then, again, where are the glorified bodies of Jesus and Mary?

And to take it a step further, where are the bodies of Enoch and Elijah, if, as many believe, haven’t died yet, and even further, how can they still be alive?

 

[Gorgias]

Then if the Church doesn’t make the claim that Heaven isn’t a part of creation

You’ve got it backward, I’m afraid: the Church doesn’t make the claim that Heaven is part of creation.

, what does She say?

Check out the catechism, beginning at #1022:

By virtue of our apostolic authority, we define the following: According to the general disposition of God, the souls of all the saints . . . and other faithful who died after receiving Christ’s holy Baptism (provided they were not in need of purification when they died, . . . or, if they then did need or will need some purification, when they have been purified after death, . . .) already before they take up their bodies again and before the general judgment - and this since the Ascension of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ into heaven - have been, are and will be in heaven, in the heavenly Kingdom and celestial paradise with Christ, joined to the company of the holy angels. Since the Passion and death of our Lord Jesus Christ, these souls have seen and do see the divine essence with an intuitive vision, and even face to face, without the mediation of any creature.

 

[Hope1960]

If other dimensions exist does this contradict the Bible or go against our Catholic faith?

Getting back to my original question, I’ve gotten a variety of answers. Is it safe for me to say that if other dimensions (and Universes) exist, it does not contradict the Bible, and it does not go against our Catholic faith?

 

[Richca]

If the Church has no say whether multiverses or other dimensions exist, and you seem to agree on that point,
And if you agree the CCC and St. Thomas also says nothing on that particular subject, why do you have such a hard time entertaining the idea this authors theory that Heaven might be in another dimension might be possible?

St Thomas does address the question in the ST whether there is more than one world and he answers in the negative. By more than one world, I believe St Thomas refers to another corporeal creation besides the one we live in composed of the heavens and the earth analogous to the multiverse theory. Accordingly, Aquinas does not agree with the multiverse theory.

As far as the existence of other dimensions such as we are understanding it now, I don’t think Aquinas uses the terms ‘other dimensions’ but rather more like visible or invisible or transcendence which could be understood in a way as other dimensions. For example, God is all around us but as St Paul says he dwells in light inaccessible which I suppose one could call it another dimension. Angels and demons are all around us but we don’t see them so again I suppose one could call that another dimension. The whole spiritual world of the angels and all the choirs of angels I suppose one could call in another dimension.

Also, in the ST, St Thomas addresses the question whether there is more than one heaven. Here, St Thomas, addresses the opinions of various fathers of the Church as well as quoting from Scripture which I already addressed in a previous post. Some of the fathers speculated that the highest heaven called the empyrean heaven because it is wholly luminous is where God created and placed the angels as their natural abode and where the blessed souls go when they go to heaven. This heaven is a part of the whole body of the corporeal heavens but above the visible and starry heaven which we see. Since it is invisible, I suppose it could be said to be in another dimension. Between the empyrean heaven and the starry heaven, certain fathers placed another heaven they called the aqueous or crystalline heaven so named because of it being wholly transparent. The aqueous heaven is probably also invisible in their view.

 

[Hope1960]

St Thomas does address the question in the ST whether there is more than one world and he answers in the negative. By more than one world, I believe St Thomas refers to another corporeal creation besides the one we live in composed of the heavens and the earth analogous to the multiverse theory. Accordingly, Aquinas does not agree with the multiverse theory.

As far as the existence of other dimensions such as we are understanding it now, I don’t think Aquinas uses the terms ‘other dimensions’ but rather more like visible or invisible or transcendence which could be understood in a way as other dimensions. For example, God is all around us but as St Paul says he dwells in light inaccessible which I suppose one could call it another dimension. Angels and demons are all around us but we don’t see them so again I suppose one could call that another dimension. The whole spiritual world of the angels and all the choirs of angels I suppose one could call in another dimension.

Also, in the ST, St Thomas addresses the question whether there is more than one heaven. Here, St Thomas, addresses the opinions of various fathers of the Church as well as quoting from Scripture which I already addressed in a previous post. Some of the fathers speculated that the highest heaven called the empyrean heaven because it is wholly luminous is where God created and placed the angels as their natural abode and where the blessed souls go when they go to heaven. This heaven is a part of the whole body of the corporeal heavens but above the visible and starry heaven which we see. Since it is invisible, I suppose it could be said to be in another dimension. Between the empyrean heaven and the starry heaven, certain fathers placed another heaven they called the aqueous or crystalline heaven so named because of it being wholly transparent. The aqueous heaven is probably also invisible in their view.

Just so we’re on the same page — then the Church allows us to believe in other dimensions, correct?

That said, St. Thomas and St. Aquinas appear to be wrong. As has been frequently pointed out on CAF, the Church doesn’t delve in scientific matters, AND scientists mostly believe in the multiverse theory.

 

[Richca]

Just so we’re on the same page — then the Church allows us to believe in other dimensions, correct?

In general, I don’t see why not. But, I also think it may depend on how one is defining ‘other dimensions’ and what they are referring to by ‘other dimensions’ such as what exists in these ‘other dimensions.’ Again, we don’t have direct contact with the angels, we don’t see them nor know what they are doing presently, so I think it can be said they are in another dimension taking ‘another dimension’ in a broad sense.

That said, St. Thomas and St. Aquinas appear to be wrong. As has been frequently pointed out on CAF, the Church doesn’t delve in scientific matters, AND scientists mostly believe in the multiverse theory.

I think St Thomas in what I mentioned about him in the previous post was arguing from a theological and philosophical point of view. He does quote from Scripture and uses some philosophical reasoning and various writings of the fathers. The multiverse theory can be looked at from various disciplines or branches of knowledge including theology and philosophy which St Thomas, a theologian, in a way actually did in the Summa Theologica. How natural scientists have come up with the mulitverse theory I don’t really know but I am quite certain that no universe beyond ours has ever been seen nor have we ever seen or know the limits or bounderies, if there are any, to our own universe. I think we would need to reach the boundary of our own universe, if that is even possible, before we can observe what is beyond if there is in fact anything beyond that could be observed to be beyond it. In fact, according to what I mentioned in the previous post, upon reaching the edge of the visible and starry heaven, one might have to pass through an invisible crystalline heaven and empyrean heaven (if that would be possible, maybe there is some kind of boundary in which nothing from the visible creation could pass into the upper heavens) which God only knows how large these could be before coming to the edge of the whole heavens. As I said, I don’t know how some of the scientists have come up with the mulitverse theory but it may be more philosophical than scientific, it definitely is not from observation.

AND scientists mostly believe in the multiverse theory.

Maybe the scientists are wrong and St Thomas is right. What we do know and what God has revealed to us is that He created this universe we live in. God could create other universes if he wanted too but if he did he hasn’t revealed that to us nor do we know if any other exist. The Church teaches what God has revealed to us and what we can see with our own eyes. If a catholic wants to believe that there are other universes besides ours, fine, but there is no evidence of it. God could certainly do it but has he? St Thomas gives his opinion based on Scripture and philosophical reasoning but the Church has not stated that this must be accepted as a matter of faith.