Music in the Catholic Church

[VociMike]

BTW, my wife just attended a morning Mass at our daughter’s new parochial school. The priest handed out kazoos and had the kids all blowing them. At Mass! She brought one home and it will go to the bishop if necessary.

Needless to say, we are about to go on the warpath. These morons are driving young people out of the Church as fast as their stupid antics will allow.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Sounds like Father was thinking of “joyful NOISE”, yikes.

What was the old phrase about good intentions paving the road to . . . well, you know.

Kazoos are NOT proper 'instruments of music".

Good luck, and I mean that. The sooner that we no longer have to argue about whether something is ‘appropriate’ at Mass based on “Father so-and-so’s say-so” or ‘legitimate expressions’ or “making Mass relevant to the young” etc, and have the i’s dotted, the t’s crossed, and clear cut standards which were there ONCE and can be so AGAIN. . .the better.

 

[johnnykins]

Sounds like Father was thinking of “joyful NOISE”, yikes.

What was the old phrase about good intentions paving the road to . . . well, you know.

Kazoos are NOT proper 'instruments of music".

Good luck, and I mean that. The sooner that we no longer have to argue about whether something is ‘appropriate’ at Mass based on “Father so-and-so’s say-so” or ‘legitimate expressions’ or “making Mass relevant to the young” etc, and have the i’s dotted, the t’s crossed, and clear cut standards which were there ONCE and can be so AGAIN. . .the better.

For some reason this brings to mind the priest who visisted our parish and who was sooooo with it - and was vocations director at a diocese for 20+ years but had almost no vocations at all during that time. Give the guy his due (or maybe he just needed his meds changed) but he didn’t see how his “mod” Mass and “with it” sermons were just a joke. He really couldn’t see that he was a major part of the problem. Then again - neither could the Bishop who kept him on for 20+ years in that role. God save us.

 

[puzzleannie]

Am I alone or is the music in the church just dull? I’m a new Catholic coming to the church from the Episcopal Church who’s music just blows the Roman church away. Any thoughts?

now you know what the temptation is for Catholics who venture into an Episcopalian church with a good organist and choir, esp. one whose Catholic school upbringing included attention paid to musical training for choir and liturgical music. It has indeed been a real penance for Catholics during the last 40 years to endure what has passed for music in many (not all) parishes, and a source of real pain and anguish for anyone with good musical training. I would settle for dull and boring if it would mean I would never again hear excreable, horrid, outrageous, blasphemous, screeching and narcissistic.

the reason of course is that Catholic parishes refuse to pay (for the most part) for professional musicians, something most mainline Protestant congregations take for granted as essential for reverent and beautiful worship.

 

[Sr_Sally]

I’m not convinced though that paying for professional music really solves the problem. Then you just have a narcissistic music program that you are paying for instead of getting for free (and it can sometimes be all those other things depending on the music tastes of whoever did the hiring).

 

[VBoone]

Hi everyone,
I try to get on the music forums every now and then to see what people in cyberworld are saying about the Mass music. I come from an Independent Baptist background, and grew up on gospel music where people would sing their hearts out, you could hear not only the melody or soprano’s but the alto’s, the tenors, the baritones and sometime a surpise bass. When I came into the church in 2003 I was really appalled at the lack of singing of our congregation, especially with the teens and children…the songs weren’t that hard to sing…come on any one can sing the alleluia or the Holy, Holy. What I have learned is this: this is a really small parish in a retirement “based” community, our church is a minority in a sea of evangelical churches…one of the local pastors had the audacity to comment to our priest that if it weren’t for EDIT our CC they wouldn’t have a steady draw into their congregation . Being it is in a pseudo-rural area, not much music or training takes place at the schools…if you can count H.S. Band,…most of what a lot of kids learn of choir / singing is from their churchs.
As a small parrish we cannot afford to hire an organist, and we rely on 2 people both in their mid to late 60’s to play for our saturday vigil and sunday mass…we did hire an organist over a year ago, but he got a better offer from the presbyterian church which is smaller than ours. We are now up to 4 cantors now that I’ve enlisted and a contemporary group in which I play flute and sing.
On numerous occasion we have tried to get our people interested in forming a choir but no one is even the slightest bit interested.
All in all though, even through the rant (apologies), I still feel so blessed to be where I am at, because there is a lot of work to do, snowballs can get bigger.
One thing our music people have is a sincere, respectful, and profound love of the mass and eucharist and much effort goes into the selection of good orthodox and some contemporary songs that brings the level of worship up into that realm of what words cannot say. Yes we do get discouraged when we don’t see people singing during the mass, yes we do discouraged when we hear kids say, “the music at 1st baptist is soooo good and exciting”…and we take advantage of that statement to remind them what they are coming to mass for!
I still have a lot to learn about liturgical music, I have seen as some previous posters said, that some churchs have phenominal music, choir, a trained choir director, a highly trained organist that knows how to play a pipe organ. I find it so inspiring and helpful and I bring some of that back with me to my little parish.
So in the meantime, as my granddad said, we’ve got a long row to hoe.
Peace
Virginia

 

[muledog]

The sad thing is, if we utilized all of the liturgical books given to us, we wouldn’t need hymns for Mass.

The “proper” chants for the Mass - i.e., the Entrance, Communion, Offertory - are provided for us in the Roman Gradual. The recessional hymn is actually not a part of the liturgy, and is an add-on.

Too bad, as well, that the Gradual was never officially translated into English by the USCCB.

Another great Catholic tradition lost in the post-Vatican II liturgical mire.

 

[VociMike]

The sad thing is, if we utilized all of the liturgical books given to us, we wouldn’t need hymns for Mass.

Exactly. Hymns are a weak substitute for actually singing the Mass.

The “proper” chants for the Mass - i.e., the Entrance, Communion, Offertory - are provided for us in the Roman Gradual. The recessional hymn is actually not a part of the liturgy, and is an add-on.

Too bad, as well, that the Gradual was never officially translated into English by the USCCB.

Another great Catholic tradition lost in the post-Vatican II liturgical mire.

The lack of an official translation is inexcusable. It is a dereliction of duty. Of course, considering the quality of translation we may have gotten, it’s probably also a blessing.

 

[pieta05]

Am I alone or is the music in the church just dull? I’m a new Catholic coming to the church from the Episcopal Church who’s music just blows the Roman church away. Any thoughts?

Luckily at my parish we still do the good old music. But I agree, the junk they call liturgical in many parishes stinks.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Well having lived in the Catholic Church prior to 1965, I can tell you, if you want dull, go back to that music.

No one, I mean no one, outside of the choir sang.

I think it has a lot to do with many parishes, who consist mainly of pre-Vatican II Catholics, who just don’t sing. This has been a reality in the Catholic Church, all of my 56 years. Catholics don’t sing like the protestants do, and I don’t think they ever will.

However, at the folk Mass that I played guitar and sang at, people sang and sometimes clapped their hands to the Music. But that Mass was the family Mass. with lots of children and younger families. The other 3 Masses, the choir sings and a few people in the pews join in.

If you want to hear people sing, tune in the Gather Gospel Homecoming on Saturday evenings. Those folks can sing!

Not saying this is music for Mass, but its night and day over Catholic participation.

Jim

 

[VociMike]

Well having lived in the Catholic Church prior to 1965, I can tell you, if you want dull, go back to that music.

No one, I mean no one, outside of the choir sang.

I think it has a lot to do with many parishes, who consist mainly of pre-Vatican II Catholics, who just don’t sing. This has been a reality in the Catholic Church, all of my 56 years. Catholics don’t sing like the protestants do, and I don’t think they ever will.

However, at the folk Mass that I played guitar and sang at, people sang and sometimes clapped their hands to the Music. But that Mass was the family Mass. with lots of children and younger families. The other 3 Masses, the choir sings and a few people in the pews join in.

If you want to hear people sing, tune in the Gather Gospel Homecoming on Saturday evenings. Those folks can sing!

Not saying this is music for Mass, but its night and day over Catholic participation.

Jim

You seem to equate “dull” with “lack of participation of the congregation”. While congregational participation is desired by the Church, there is no direct correlation between participation and dullness. People can participate in dull music, and they can remain silent while the choir sings glorious, exuberant music.

Anyway, to blame lack of singing on pre-Vatican II Catholics is rather silly, IMO. I have seen “pre-Vatican II” Catholics sing the roof off at a Latin Novus Ordo Mass, and I have seen “LifeTeen” Masses where the average age was about 55. In either case, the older folks were singing along with the younger. If anything, I get the impression that teens and slightly olders sing the least of any group. But again, the thread is about the quality of music in the Church.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

You seem to equate “dull” with “lack of participation of the congregation”. While congregational participation is desired by the Church, there is no direct correlation between participation and dullness. People can participate in dull music, and they can remain silent while the choir sings glorious, exuberant music.

Anyway, to blame lack of singing on pre-Vatican II Catholics is rather silly, IMO. I have seen “pre-Vatican II” Catholics sing the roof off at a Latin Novus Ordo Mass, and I have seen “LifeTeen” Masses where the average age was about 55. In either case, the older folks were singing along with the younger. If anything, I get the impression that teens and slightly olders sing the least of any group. But again, the thread is about the quality of music in the Church.

Well the exceptions don’t make the rule.

Music in Pre-Vatican II Masses, for most parishes were dull. Heck, people prayed the rosary during Mass or fell asleep, because they were so disconnected.

Dull means, the people are off daydreaming, because the music is putting them there.

Jim

 

[VociMike]

Well the exceptions don’t make the rule.

Music in Pre-Vatican II Masses, for most parishes were dull. Heck, people prayed the rosary during Mass or fell asleep, because they were so disconnected.

Dull means, the people are off daydreaming, because the music is putting them there.

Jim

Well then I guess it’s a good thing that dull Pre-Vatican II Masses are four decades in the past and entirely outside the experience of most Catholics. Which hardly explains why the music in so many Masses today is also dull.

I think it’s odd that when the OP is talking about the music today that you’d want to talk about how bad the music was 50 years ago. How does that answer the OP’s question?

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Well then I guess it’s a good thing that Pre-Vatican II Masses are four decades in the past. Which hardly explains why the music in so many Masses today is also dull.

But not all music in parishes is dull. Like I said, when I played in the folk group, the people sang and even clapped their hands.( I know this is upsetting for you. ).

I also attend a Latin Mass at the Benedictine monetary near my home. The nuns and monks sing, acapella, Gregorian Chant. Its beautiful. However, those who attend such Masses, are not your typical Catholics who attend Mass on Sundays, in most parishes in the USA. Most people who go out of their way for a TLM or what I would call, a specialized Mass, do so because they
are generally more devote than your average Catholic.

Jim

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Respectfully, Jim, my ‘experience’ of pre Vatican 2 Masses is probably at least as extensive as yours, my family group as numerous, my venues as wide. . .

And yet your ‘experience’ was not mine. . .nor my families. . .nor my parishes. . . AT ALL. Far from finding Mass ‘dull’, we experienced a greater sense of participation, our congregations sang lustily, we still feel great ‘fondness’ for the hymns and the chants. . .

I’m not doubting that YOU and yours found it ‘dull’. Chacun a son gout, as they say, and that is fine.

But I am calling on you to acknowledge that ‘dullness’ is a matter of YOUR opinion and it is wrong for you to tar “all Masses” with your brush of ‘dullness’.

Many of us did not find them dull at all. Are we not permitted to have our ‘opinion’ heard as well as yours?

I’ll be perfectly willing to say that, to paraphrase W. Shakespeare, some Masses then were ‘born’ dull, some ‘achieved’ dullness and some had dullness “thrust upon them”. . . IOW, what you’re doing is ‘thrusting’ dullness on ALL because to you, it existed in what YOU experienced.

Please don’t. I’m not trying to take away your ‘un-dull’ Mass today–please do not try to invalidate my–and many others’ – Mass experiences by 'thrusting dullness upon them.

I’m not claiming that my experience was that of ‘the majority’–but, again respectfully, I do not believe that you can claim that your experience is that of the majority either

 

[reganq]

My :twocents:

Most of the music we hear at mass is so dull is because it does very little to lift one’s focus to God.

IMHO, most of the songs written since 1965 tend to put way too much focus on ourselves and not God. The last time I checked, we go to mass to worship God, not the fact that we are Christians and called to serve others. While many of these songs are decent enough, they should be reserved for gatherings outside of mass.

 

[VociMike]

Am I alone or is the music in the church just dull? I’m a new Catholic coming to the church from the Episcopal Church who’s music just blows the Roman church away. Any thoughts?

I have been thinking a bit more about this subject, and realize that we have to expand the reason why today’s Catholic music is so dull (or bad, or bland, or boring, or…). That expanded reason is that the entire popular music world (with the few inevitable exceptions, naturally) is dull and bad and bland and boring. How could new Catholic music be good when hardly any new music is good? The fact is, American popular music is in a long, long slump, and new Catholic music has been slumping right along with it.

We are to expect slumps in the course of human events. The question is, how can the Church ride through these slumps? Well, if one has a 2000-year closet of music to fall back on, it’s really quite easy to ride through a 50 or 100 year musical slump. But the “spirit of Vatican II” folks did their very best to lock up, burn down and encase in concrete the 2000-year closet (more reverently termed “a treasure of inestimable value” by Vatican II) that could have gotten the Church through the upcoming slump. It was like burning all the surplus in your barn just before a decades-long draught hits. Timing is everything, and the timing of the “spirit of Vatican II” crowd could not have been worse as far as sacred music.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Respectfully, Jim, my ‘experience’ of pre Vatican 2 Masses is probably at least as extensive as yours, my family group as numerous, my venues as wide. . .

And yet your ‘experience’ was not mine. . .nor my families. . .nor my parishes. . . AT ALL. Far from finding Mass ‘dull’, we experienced a greater sense of participation, our congregations sang lustily, we still feel great ‘fondness’ for the hymns and the chants. . .

I’m not doubting that YOU and yours found it ‘dull’. Chacun a son gout, as they say, and that is fine.

But I am calling on you to acknowledge that ‘dullness’ is a matter of YOUR opinion and it is wrong for you to tar “all Masses” with your brush of ‘dullness’.

Many of us did not find them dull at all. Are we not permitted to have our ‘opinion’ heard as well as yours?

I’ll be perfectly willing to say that, to paraphrase W. Shakespeare, some Masses then were ‘born’ dull, some ‘achieved’ dullness and some had dullness “thrust upon them”. . . IOW, what you’re doing is ‘thrusting’ dullness on ALL because to you, it existed in what YOU experienced.

Please don’t. I’m not trying to take away your ‘un-dull’ Mass today–please do not try to invalidate my–and many others’ – Mass experiences by 'thrusting dullness upon them.

I’m not claiming that my experience was that of ‘the majority’–but, again respectfully, I do not believe that you can claim that your experience is that of the majority either

Well its actually not just my opinion, but that of the the Church as a whole. Its one of the main points for the calling of Vatican II, which in the liturgy, was to bring the people into fuller participation in the Mass, which wasn’t happening.

Jim

 

[DebChris]

Am I alone or is the music in the church just dull? I’m a new Catholic coming to the church from the Episcopal Church who’s music just blows the Roman church away. Any thoughts?

There is a music school attached to the Episcopal Church that is kitty corner from the Church I attend. Their orchestral music is fantastic. It is also a much larger church.
High School students play violin at my Church. I have been to some Catholic churches with great music. St. Mary’s Bascilla Cathedral in Galveston has an organ whose music encompasses the whole church.
There are different factors to consider when it comes to music. Most importantly, how skilled are the musicians?
We just don’t have an orchestra or Charismatic band available for every Mass.

 

[KathleenElsie]

Our entrance “song” today was played to the tune of “We Shall Overcome”. Now I really love to listen to “Gospel music” at home and in the car I sing along with it and have lots of fun with it. But, all I could seem to think of when this was being played was a movie I watched of a funeral procession in New Orleans or clapping and dancing down the isle.