Music Ministry at Modernized Mass

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Fyi: I edited by post and added a little more information.
nickybr38 said:
Ah! I see. I noticed these things generally didn’t change (although sometimes parts would be left out here or there) but I didn’t know they were called the ‘Ordinary’.

I noticed at least three musical settings in our old hymnals. But in parishes all around I’ve heard many, many different versions of the Gloria, Agnus Dei, Holy, Great Amen and Lamb of God. How many acceptable musical versions are there of these particular pieces? or is it basically unlimited so long as the words remain the same?
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Yes, they can be set to any tune acceptable for usage in the liturgy. So in theory, there is an unlimited number of ordinaries. However, not all ordinaries listed in hymnals or sold by publishers are licit (allowed) to use, for one of several reasons:
nickybr38 said:
In this parish I noticed they sang completely different words for the Lamb of God and the Amen which I found very confusing because usually no matter the musical setting I can follow because the words have been consistent but in the new parish the words were changed.
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nickybr38 said:
Interesting! I’ll ask the lady leading ministries what they’re using. They’ve already asked me twice to join in music ministry so I think it would be okay to ask questions. 🙂
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Just open a hymnal and it’ll be there. It’ll also be on the bottom of every piece of music where the copyright is.
nickybr38 said:
Gregorian is so far out of my depth that it’s one thing I wouldn’t be willing to touch without a strong leader to help out.
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I understand. While I had a little help, I basically had to learn it on my own – and then teach it to others. Don’t believe the pervasive and pernicious lie that Gregorian chant is too hard for regular folks to sing, or that it needs trained specialists. It’s a simple melody without harmony sung a cappella (or with organ). It’s been sung by regular folks for centuries. Probably the toughest thing about it is the Latin, but there are chants in English.
 
pnewton said:
I would suggest that after you settle in, you might see if you can assist with the music. It may be that the time constraints and talent level of the volunteers are factors in the music that is being chosen. If such is the case, and when the situation is one of taste and preference, it is hard to sell extra work that one is not willing to give. On the other hand, if there is an issue like the wrong words being used for the Ordinary, then now might be a good time to say something, as this is the time of transition to the new Mass translation. There is not limit on the number of possible tunes used for this, but the words are not supposed to be changed.
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Right, that’s what I thought. The Ordinary’s were replaced by campfire songs, complete with different words. 🤷

I do think it’s just a case of not having qualified volunteers. It’s a small parish and sometimes such parishes just don’t have musically minded people to step in. I don’t think there’s anything malicious or deliberate going on here, it’s just people trying to do the best they can.

And if I can help - shouldn’t I? I don’t know but I’ll ask our Lord. 🙂
 
I_Thirst said:
Don’t believe the pervasive and pernicious lie that Gregorian chant is too hard for regular folks to sing, or that it needs trained specialists.
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This is not a lie. It is an opinion. The OP finds it difficult. I do to. It runs counter to intuitive to my regular music experience. I will say that a trained leader will make learning chant easy. They taught chant to untrained monks for centuries. However, without a leader, one person is going to have to put in some major time to learn each song, unless one is highly skilled. The full length pieces take me between one and two months work before I can pass it on.

To the OP, if we can help here, we have several music folk here. We even have a thread where we swap our picks for each week.
 
Fyi: I edited by post and added a little more information.
nickybr38 said:
Ah! I see. I noticed these things generally didn’t change (although sometimes parts would be left out here or there) but I didn’t know they were called the ‘Ordinary’.

I noticed at least three musical settings in our old hymnals. But in parishes all around I’ve heard many, many different versions of the Gloria, Agnus Dei, Holy, Great Amen and Lamb of God. How many acceptable musical versions are there of these particular pieces? or is it basically unlimited so long as the words remain the same?
Click to expand...
Yes, they can be set to any tune acceptable for usage in the liturgy. So in theory, there is an unlimited number of ordinaries. However, not all ordinaries listed in hymnals or sold by publishers are licit (allowed) to use, for one of several reasons:
nickybr38 said:
In this parish I noticed they sang completely different words for the Lamb of God and the Amen which I found very confusing because usually no matter the musical setting I can follow because the words have been consistent but in the new parish the words were changed.
Click to expand...
Another common problem. The texts should always be the same, and if they aren’t, that is a problem. Even small changes should not be happening. (cf. Luke 16:10)
 
pnewton said:
The full length pieces take me between one and two months work before I can pass it on.
Click to expand...
I don’t find that this is any different from learning any full length piece of music, Gregorian chant or a new Mass setting. 🤷

btw, I didn’t mean to say that nicky was spreading a lie about chant. And I’m sorry that it came off that way.
 
Fyi: I edited by post and added a little more information.
nickybr38 said:
Ah! I see. I noticed these things generally didn’t change (although sometimes parts would be left out here or there) but I didn’t know they were called the ‘Ordinary’.

I noticed at least three musical settings in our old hymnals. But in parishes all around I’ve heard many, many different versions of the Gloria, Agnus Dei, Holy, Great Amen and Lamb of God. How many acceptable musical versions are there of these particular pieces? or is it basically unlimited so long as the words remain the same?
Click to expand...
Yes, they can be set to any tune acceptable for usage in the liturgy. So in theory, there is an unlimited number of ordinaries. However, not all ordinaries listed in hymnals or sold by publishers are licit (allowed) to use, for one of several reasons:
However, there 18 mass settings in latin and 1 in english that are official. Others may be used, but these are mass settings that are very old, and merit our use. They have been used for over 1000 years. Unfortunately, they are now rarely used.

The 18 are found in the Graduale Romanum, one of the two official music books of the roman rite. The 1 is found in the new missal that we are going to begin using in advent. It is an adaptation and compilation of a few of the latin ones. You can find videos of the english setting here.
nickybr38 said:
In this parish I noticed they sang completely different words for the Lamb of God and the Amen which I found very confusing because usually no matter the musical setting I can follow because the words have been consistent but in the new parish the words were changed.
Click to expand...
Another common problem. The texts should always be the same, and if they aren’t, that is a problem. Even small changes should not be happening. (cf. Luke 16:10)
 
I_Thirst said:
I don’t find that this is any different from learning any full length piece of music, Gregorian chant or a new Mass setting. 🤷
Click to expand...
Let me clarify, I was speaking (for me) of specifically Latin chants. I have to deal with the language and pronounciation, as well as the unique method of notation and different style of melody.

I won’t say that it isn’t getting easier. It is. But it is a project measured in years for me.
 
TheMc said:
Fyi: I edited by post and added a little more information.

Yes, they can be set to any tune acceptable for usage in the liturgy. So in theory, there is an unlimited number of ordinaries. However, not all ordinaries listed in hymnals or sold by publishers are licit (allowed) to use, for one of several reasons:
However, there 18 mass settings in latin and 1 in english that are official. Others may be used, but these are mass settings that are very old, and merit our use. They have been used for over 1000 years. Unfortunately, they are now rarely used.

The 18 are found in the Graduale Romanum, one of the two official music books of the roman rite. The 1 is found in the new missal that we are going to begin using in advent. It is an adaptation and compilation of a few of the latin ones. You can find videos of the english setting here.

Another common problem. The texts should always be the same, and if they aren’t, that is a problem. Even small changes should not be happening. (cf. Luke 16:10)
Click to expand...
HAHAH! I’m laughing now because all the music you mentioned is what my old parish used all the time.

All right. I’m going to tune into the music crowd around here and just figure out what everyone else is hearing at Mass… and maybe it’s time I listened to/watched some online Masses. I want to learn about music in the Mass guys, and I guess this is a good way to start (listening to/watching Masses outside of my region).
 
nickybr38 said:
HAHAH! I’m laughing now because all the music you mentioned is what my old parish used all the time.
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It sounds to me like the music your old Parish was using was actually modern and inappropriate Catholic settings. These are rarely used in protestant churches - some because they are non-liturgical, and others because they use very traditional (and Catholic) choral settings.

Hopefully you now have plenty of material to make some informed choices. 🙂
 
nickybr38 said:
HAHAH! I’m laughing now because all the music you mentioned is what my old parish used all the time.

All right. I’m going to tune into the music crowd around here and just figure out what everyone else is hearing at Mass… and maybe it’s time I listened to/watched some online Masses. I want to learn about music in the Mass guys, and I guess this is a good way to start (listening to/watching Masses outside of my region).
Click to expand...
Wow. If your old parish was using those, and you said your old parish was pretty good, I’m cringing to imagine your new parish.
 
TheMc said:
Wow. If your old parish was using those, and you said your old parish was pretty good, I’m cringing to imagine your new parish.
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I know right?

This is why I kind of laugh when I hear people talking about the ‘music bringing people in’. No. It doesn’t. GOD does. The Holy Spirit does… and then we grit our teeth, bear the music and thank God for bringing us home. 😉

Good music only covers so many holes and soon becomes empty if God is not present, on the other hand if you know you’re in the presence of God no amount of bad music can drive one away.
 
liturgyluver said:
It sounds to me like the music your old Parish was using was actually modern and inappropriate Catholic settings. These are rarely used in protestant churches - some because they are non-liturgical, and others because they use very traditional (and Catholic) choral settings.

Hopefully you now have plenty of material to make some informed choices. 🙂
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The HYMNS are protestant. The Ordinary Parts of the Mass are… something else.
 
nickybr38 said:
The HYMNS are protestant. The Ordinary Parts of the Mass are… something else.
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The ordinary is as Catholic as Catholic can be! When protestants sing it, they are stealing it from us…

Hymns actually have a place in the liturgical life of the church. The GIRM allows hymns after the communion chant, and during the recessional. But the main place of hymns is during the Liturgy of the Hours. In the LOTH, they are actually part of it. During the Mass, hymns are just replacing the propers, and the GIRM speaks to that even in the subtleties in the language surrounding the music.
 
TheMc said:
The ordinary is as Catholic as Catholic can be! When protestants sing it, they are stealing it from us…

Hymns actually have a place in the liturgical life of the church. The GIRM allows hymns after the communion chant, and during the recessional. But the main place of hymns is during the Liturgy of the Hours. In the LOTH, they are actually part of it. During the Mass, hymns are just replacing the propers, and the GIRM speaks to that even in the subtleties in the language surrounding the music.
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Okay, I think we’re all getting confused here.

Hymns are one thing.
The Ordinary is another. The Ordinary has set words that MUST be sung. How we sing them doesn’t matter. Am I correct?

Hymns, on the other hand, have a greater range because they have no set words that must be sung.

The Hymns are at my new parish are the Hymns you hear in the Baptist church just down the street. This isn’t an outright abuse but in all honesty I just don’t like it. Haha. I have flash backs to Protestant land and that wasn’t a nice place.

The Ordinary is not Ordinary. The words are not what I read online or hear when I play YouTube versions of them. The melodies are campfire melodies (which, as I now understand, is no big deal so long as the words are proper - which they aren’t).

I have never EVER been in a Protestant church where they sang the Ordinary parts of Mass!!! The closest I’ve seen is their version of the Alleluia but even that is different.

But maybe I’m getting confused about the language you guys are using!
 
nickybr38 said:
I have never EVER been in a Protestant church where they sang the Ordinary parts of Mass!!! The closest I’ve seen is their version of the Alleluia but even that is different.

But maybe I’m getting confused about the language you guys are using!
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If you’re Baptist then no, you won’t have heard the Ordinary sung (and that will help explain the music you described previously)

But both Anglicans and Lutherans sing these as part of their Eucharistic services. Presbyterians sometimes do.
 
liturgyluver said:
If you’re Baptist then no, you won’t have heard the Ordinary sung (and that will help explain the music you described previously)

But both Anglicans and Lutherans sing these as part of their Eucharistic services. Presbyterians sometimes do.
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Interesting! I was Baptist/Evangelical/Pentecostal/United/Non-Denominational. 🙂 I’ve seen almost them all but Lutherans and Anglicans were always too ‘Catholic’ and I would have never dared to set foot in either. Heh.
 
nickybr38 said:
The Ordinary has set words that MUST be sung. How we sing them doesn’t matter. Am I correct?

Hymns, on the other hand, have a greater range because they have no set words that must be sung.
Click to expand...
That’s correct. The text for the Ordinary cannot be changed or altered. The biggest change for most Mass settings is the Gloria (though most parish choirs are learning entirely new Mass settings). It can be set to a variety of styles of music. Gregorian chant is supposed to be the model for all settings, but it isn’t.

While the hymns do have a greater range, they should reflect the Mass readings. Some missalettes have an Entrance Antiphon and Communion Antiphon printed in them (some don’t). If you go back to the Graduale Romanum, there are specific music (Gregorian chant) settings for these. In contemporary practice, just about anything is used for the entrance and at communion. The offertory is often a hymn. The recessional hymn is almost a free-for-all – as long as it somehow relates a la Six Degrees of Separation to Jesus, it’s cool. :rolleyes:

This heavy emphasis on hymns is often called the four-hymn sandwich.

btw, don’t worry about the Graduale Romanum. It is mainly for the odd parish or monastery that uses Gregorian chant or has a solid sense of the tradition of Catholic liturgical music. Most of what you’ll encounter will be from OCP or GIA.
 
nickybr38 said:
Interesting! I was Baptist/Evangelical/Pentecostal/United/Non-Denominational. 🙂 I’ve seen almost them all but Lutherans and Anglicans were always too ‘Catholic’ and I would have never dared to set foot in either. Heh.
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Gosh, you have really been through them all…but it’s good to know that you are now in the right place spiritually. 🙂
 
Posted by nickybr38:
Okay, I think we’re all getting confused here.

Hymns are one thing.
The Ordinary is another. The Ordinary has set words that MUST be sung. How we sing them doesn’t matter. Am I correct? [Well yes and no. Any melody that is dignified. There’s not a limited number of melodies that you must use. But I think you get the idea.]

Hymns, on the other hand, have a greater range because they have no set words that must be sung. [Again yes and no. It’s similar to the ordinary: The music must be dignified, and the words must be dignified, but yes, there is quite a bit that is allowable.]

The Hymns are at my new parish are the Hymns you hear in the Baptist church just down the street. This isn’t an outright abuse but in all honesty I just don’t like it. Haha. I have flash backs to Protestant land and that wasn’t a nice place.

The Ordinary is not Ordinary. The words are not what I read online or hear when I play YouTube versions of them. The melodies are campfire melodies (which, as I now understand, is no big deal so long as the words are proper - which they aren’t).[Well, not quite. “Campfire melodies,” if I’m understanding your description correctly, would not be acceptable. And you are right here, the words must be correct.]

I have never EVER been in a Protestant church where they sang the Ordinary parts of Mass!!! The closest I’ve seen is their version of the Alleluia but even that is different.[That’s probably because they don’t have the Mass. Our ordinary is pretty much a catholic thing.]

But maybe I’m getting confused about the language you guys are using!
[Have I helped you? Does it make more sense? If not, just ask more questions.]
 
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