Muslim asked, "If Jesus is God, then why did his Apostle John write in his Gospel, after seeing and spending years with Jesus, that 'No one has ever s

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Rinnie,
. I was raised on the idea of the Trinity, but over time, my understanding has changed. “God is God”, and God knows everything, and Jesus clearly stated that He didn’t. For example:

. When asked “When shall these things be?” Jesus replied:

. "“No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.” Mark 13:32 NIV

. No offense to anybody’s beliefs here, but there is a definite separation between Jesus and God, and to try and make Him God misses something important. Honest to God, I think its almost a shell game, whether intentional or not, passed on out of “tradition” as though nobody is supposed to notice or something.

. People don’t want problems, and the above verse creates a problem for people who want to make Jesus God. I’m not saying He wasn’t sent by God, because He was:

. "So Jesus answered them and said, “My teaching is not Mine, but His who sent Me.”

. Thus, God must be divided and multiplied to fit the Trinity model, which tends to fall apart upon examination. There is “herd pressure” on people to get them to nod their heads in agreement on this despite the obvious.
It would appear that way huh.😃

But nope. The first rule of reading the word of God read it in a divine way in the mind of God. We can’t or we would see it the way you did.

The CCC 474 explains this.

See why would Jesus tell us every single thing up until the end and then no finish?

Simple when he admitted to not knowing, he was declaring himself not sent to reveal something.

Anotherwards it was not for him as the SON to reveal to us. As God the Son he is not revealing it.

I mean come on you read the scripture he tells us everything as the Son he chooses to reveal to us as the Son.

Its his way of saying its none of your business. Or you are not to know yet.

Why? Simple as he said if the man of the house knew when the thief was comming he would wait up for him.

Anotherwards if we knew we had to … we would not live our lives fully today for God as we should.
 
since the bahai have decided to make this thread about them rather than about the original question, i, again, ask them what did Jesus fail to reveal about human nature, divine nature and the relationship between the two?
 
as to the original question, it is important to know that God is Three Persons sharing perfectly one Divine Nature. Jesus is the Second Person of the Most Holy Trinity. also, John was referring to the Godhead that is completely non-physical. consequently it made perfect sense to John to say that no one has seen God because He is speaking about the Three Persons, the non-physical Godhead, not the Incarnate Word.

finally, Jesus’ words when He refers to Himself are not always referring to the same thing. Jesus has two natures. One nature is Divine and one nature is human. it does not even make sense to expect Jesus’ references to His human nature to be the same as His references to His divine nature.

discerning and interpreting Jesus words when He refers to Himself must take in to account His two natures. it is virtually impossible for a non-catholic, who is not guided by faith, to fully understand Jesus’ references to Himself. the attempts by non-christians to try and teach christians about the two natures of Jesus come across as quite ignorant or arrogant since they possess neither the faith nor the knowledge to discuss either the Incarnation or the Trinity in a sensible manner. this much should be obvious from the contents of their comments.
 
A thought extension on Rinnie’s at post 141 -

We also have to remember, that unconditional love does not force.

Had enough been revealed to the point where we felt obligated to do something, that would go against unconditional love.

Creation chooses to learn good, to know good, to want good, to do good.

It’s how we can show we love back and keeps the truth of God’s unconditional love intact.

Of course the choice includes the ability to do otherwise.
 
. "“No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.” Mark 13:32 NIV

. No offense to anybody’s beliefs here, but there is a definite separation between Jesus and God, and to try and make Him God misses something important. Honest to God, I think its almost a shell game, whether intentional or not, passed on out of “tradition” as though nobody is supposed to notice or something.

. People don’t want problems, and the above verse creates a problem for people who want to make Jesus God. I’m not saying He wasn’t sent by God, because He was:

. "So Jesus answered them and said, “My teaching is not Mine, but His who sent Me.”

. Thus, God must be divided and multiplied to fit the Trinity model, which tends to fall apart upon examination. There is “herd pressure” on people to get them to nod their heads in agreement on this despite the obvious.
The interior life of the Trinity is a mystery; however, what you are saying amounts to, “This is hard to understand, so it can’t be true.”

Jesus was fully God but also fully human. In His human intellect and understanding, he had to learn, just like the rest of us. Additionally, although He may have known some things that he seems to deny knowing, this was either hyperbole as a teaching device or simply a figurative expression concerning a matter He was not permitted to reveal by the Father.

Perhaps this section of the Catechism of the Catholic Church will help:

470 Because “human nature was assumed, not absorbed”, in the mysterious union of the Incarnation, the Church was led over the course of centuries to confess the full reality of Christ’s human soul, with its operations of intellect and will, and of his human body. In parallel fashion, she had to recall on each occasion that Christ’s human nature belongs, as his own, to the divine person of the Son of God, who assumed it. Everything that Christ is and does in this nature derives from “one of the Trinity”. The Son of God therefore communicates to his humanity his own personal mode of existence in the Trinity. In his soul as in his body, Christ thus expresses humanly the divine ways of the Trinity:

The Son of God. . . worked with human hands; he thought with a human mind. He acted with a human will, and with a human heart he loved. Born of the Virgin Mary, he has truly been made one of us, like to us in all things except sin.

Christ’s soul and his human knowledge

471 Apollinarius of Laodicaea asserted that in Christ the divine Word had replaced the soul or spirit. Against this error the Church confessed that the eternal Son also assumed a rational, human soul.

472 This human soul that the Son of God assumed is endowed with a true human knowledge. As such, this knowledge could not in itself be unlimited: it was exercised in the historical conditions of his existence in space and time. This is why the Son of God could, when he became man, “increase in wisdom and in stature, and in favor with God and man”, and would even have to inquire for himself about what one in the human condition can learn only from experience.102 This corresponded to the reality of his voluntary emptying of himself, taking “the form of a slave”.

473 But at the same time, this truly human knowledge of God’s Son expressed the divine life of his person. “The human nature of God’s Son, not by itself but by its union with the Word, knew and showed forth in itself everything that pertains to God.” Such is first of all the case with the intimate and immediate knowledge that the Son of God made man has of his Father. The Son in his human knowledge also showed the divine penetration he had into the secret thoughts of human hearts.

474 By its union to the divine wisdom in the person of the Word incarnate, Christ enjoyed in his human knowledge the fullness of understanding of the eternal plans he had come to reveal. What he admitted to not knowing in this area, he elsewhere declared himself not sent to reveal.

Christ’s human will


475 Similarly, at the sixth ecumenical council, Constantinople III in 681, the Church confessed that Christ possesses two wills and two natural operations, divine and human. They are not opposed to each other, but cooperate in such a way that the Word made flesh willed humanly in obedience to his Father all that he had decided divinely with the Father and the Holy Spirit for our salvation.110 Christ’s human will "does not resist or oppose but rather submits to his divine and almighty will."111

Christ’s true body

476 Since the Word became flesh in assuming a true humanity, Christ’s body was finite.112 Therefore the human face of Jesus can be portrayed; at the seventh ecumenical council (Nicaea II in 787) the Church recognized its representation in holy images to be legitimate.113

477 At the same time the Church has always acknowledged that in the body of Jesus "we see our God made visible and so are caught up in love of the God we cannot see."114 The individual characteristics of Christ’s body express the divine person of God’s Son. He has made the features of his human body his own, to the point that they can be venerated when portrayed in a holy image, for the believer “who venerates the icon is venerating in it the person of the one depicted”.115

The heart of the Incarnate Word

478 Jesus knew and loved us each and all during his life, his agony and his Passion, and gave himself up for each one of us: "The Son of God. . . loved me and gave himself for me."116 He has loved us all with a human heart. For this reason, the Sacred Heart of Jesus, pierced by our sins and for our salvation,117 “is quite rightly considered the chief sign and symbol of that. . . love with which the divine Redeemer continually loves the eternal Father and all human beings” without exception.118
 
Why do Muslims cut up the bible? He asked why does the bible say “Noone has ever seen God” (John1:18). However that is only half of the verse, let’s post the full verse and see what it says, shall we?

“No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.” John 1:18.

Thank you very much
 
Why do Muslims cut up the bible? He asked why does the bible say “Noone has ever seen God” (John1:18). However that is only half of the verse, let’s post the full verse and see what it says, shall we?

“No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.” John 1:18.

Thank you very much
Curious,
. The verse which was in my mind came from Exodus

Exodus 33:20: But He said, “You cannot see My face; for no man shall see Me, and live.”

. I’m not certain if you are responding to something I posted, but if so, please understand that I am of the Baha’i Faith, and am not a Muslim. There may be a misunderstanding here. It is the same distinction as when one differentiates himself as a Christian from a Jew, or a Muslim from a Christian, etc.

. What my difficulty is has to do with God being above any human conception to behold Him with our physical eyes or comprehend Him with our finite and limited minds.
 
Curious,
. The verse which was in my mind came from Exodus

Exodus 33:20: But He said, “You cannot see My face; for no man shall see Me, and live.”

. I’m not certain if you are responding to something I posted, but if so, please understand that I am of the Baha’i Faith, and am not a Muslim. There may be a misunderstanding here. It is the same distinction as when one differentiates himself as a Christian from a Jew, or a Muslim from a Christian, etc.

. What my difficulty is has to do with God being above any human conception to behold Him with our physical eyes or comprehend Him with our finite and limited minds.
No I was not responding to you. I was responding to the original poster. Muslim frauds like to remove half of the verse from John 1:18. Shame on them.

As far as bahaism goes its a typical left-wing religion. I can swiftly reject it based upon its acceptance of the blasphemous Quran.
 
neither islam nor bahia can offer anyone the forgiveness of sins. Jesus Christ through His Church offers every human being the forgiveness of sins through the RCC’s sacraments.

so, if you want to remain in your sins, subject to God’s just punishment, do not become a RC.
 
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