Muslim bigotry

[GaryTaylor]

Exactly! Y’see, this guy gets it.

Look, folks, you have two choices as to how you run your churches: Proclaim your OWN FAITH (Christianity) to your people and others as ABSOLUTELY RIGHT and the incontrovertible truth of GOD – or – invite others to corrupt it for the good of their own sick teachings, such as Islam, secular humanism, Buddhism, or whatever else is out there. Nobody is “afraid” of Islam, but you have no one but yourselves to blame if you stage events like this “Let a Muslim Imam ‘educate’ you on Islam” (a.k.a. proselytize you with the blessing of your own parish priest) and then, NOT coincidentally, begin to see a weakening of faith and eventually desertion of Christ for some of this other garbage you have let into your community. There is NO excuse for it. The Church is NOT a democracy in which everyone has an equal voice. Malignancies such as Islam must be shut out, and Christ must be the focus and the authority. Give yourselves over, even for a minute, to anyone else and you aren’t preaching Christianity anymore. Islam belongs in mosques, NOT in churches.

For God’s sake (and, no, that is not taking the Lord’s name in vain, as this conversation is all about what we do for God’s sake), is modern Roman Catholicism so insanely relativistic and lukewarm that Christians should have to be reminded that CHRIST and ISLAM don’t mix, at all, ever? No wonder there is such a growth of agnosticism, atheism, Islam, and other Christ-denying heresy among ex-Catholics. Stand up for God. He certainly stood up for you at Golgotha.

If you don’t think its totally out of hand read the thread on Ghandi? Wow, I’m blown away. I’m actually scared for the kids.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

How so, Gary?

If you don’t think its totally out of hand read the thread on Ghandi? Wow, I’m blown away. I’m actually scared for the kids.

 

[GaryTaylor]

How so, Gary?

Well, I just started the new thread on it.

 

[Captain_America]

I do not believe this is a correct view of what is happening in America. I spent years studying theology and religion. During those years we spent many evenings with the Imams from the Muslim community in Chicago learning about Islam. They spent many evenings with us learning and talking about Christ. This was true with the Jewish community and other faith communities as well. I believe your post is an expression of fear and bigotry and not based in experience. At least, it doesn’t represent my experience with the Muslim and other faith communities I came in contact with in America.

This is good to hear. But here’s my concern. NOT SO MANY people even know their own faith. . . or take theology seriously. The average American hardly knows Christianity intellectually.

Taking such a person on a “comparative religion” outing only adds to the confusion.

Much better to have your parishioners know the faith. Those who are interested in sociology can study other religions as they wish. I just don’t see a priest’s job as being one of “comparative religions educator.”

 

[crazzeto]

I have to completely agree with everything you’ve posted here. I’m all for freedom to practice ones faith, and I understand very well the need to understand the faith of others in some capacity at least so you can understand them. Heck, such a thing helps evangalize. But the rub is this, before one can really handle learning about another persons faith, they have to be very well rooted in their own. We can’t generally say this today, people don’t hardly know what Christianity is.

As such, now isn’t the time to be worrying about what people do or don’t know about Islam. Rather, now is the time to worry about what people do and don’t know, and more importantly do accept and don’t accept about Christianity. We need people to be faithful Christians first, then we can take time to learn about Islam.

I don’t appreciate this at all. Your wording creates a phobia on my part, a hysteria and lunacy that is not deserved. I am not “afraid to expose the Christian faith” to others. I resent that comment. I am not “afraid” of anything. What concerns me is not our exposure to others but the exposure of Islam to us. We don’t need to have classes at a CATHOLIC parish on Islam. We need classes on Christ Jesus and His Church! With all the poor catechesis, misinformation being heard by Catholics, need for freshening our faith and the need to get to know Our Saviour in a deeper way, why in the world would we be giving time in our parish hall to Muslims? If Muslims want to teach us about their faith, they can do so at a mosque and invite us over there. Do you seriously think the Lord Jesus would want us teaching about a religious that butchers Christianity, teaches a false salvation history, minimizes the Lord to just a prophet, and actually teaches that Christians will be judged to hell by Jesus Himself? Should we really be using this valuable time in our parish hall for Islamic understanding? NONSENSE. Please don’t try to warp my concerns into hysterics. Thanks and God bless.

 

[Bwtby]

I do not believe this is a correct view of what is happening in America. I spent years studying theology and religion. During those years we spent many evenings with the Imams from the Muslim community in Chicago learning about Islam. They spent many evenings with us learning and talking about Christ. This was true with the Jewish community and other faith communities as well. I believe your post is an expression of fear and bigotry and not based in experience. At least, it doesn’t represent my experience with the Muslim and other faith communities I came in contact with in America.

Maybe I should word it slightly differently. Atheists do not want Christianity in America. Christians do not want Islam in America. Why don’t you believe that’s a correct view?

 

[Bwtby]

More like bigotry towards Muslims. I am right?

Most of the Muslims that come over to the USA are moderate liberal Muslims. Yes there are a few bad apples but that doesn’t mean all Muslims are bad.

Yeah, agreed, and we shouldn’t even get into the bad apples that are Christian.

 

[Anna_Scott]

It was a good thing for the monsignor to invite parishoners to try and understand Islam. It is a sign that he takes the Christian faith of his parishoners seriously and that he views them as mature in their faith and not mere children who will be swayed merely by exposure to people who believe differently. It is a sign that he believes the Holy Spirit dwells among the people of his parish and will guide them in correct understanding of God’s presence among his people. It is a sign that he believes his parishoners are generous, open minded, thoughtful and welcoming to those who are different. It is a sign that he believes that Christ dwells among his people and that they reflect the spirit of Christ in their relationships with others. You should rejoice that your monsignor views the parish is this way. He is not afraid to expose the Christian faith of his parishoners to others and neither should you.

I don’t appreciate this at all. Your wording creates a phobia on my part, a hysteria and lunacy that is not deserved. I am not “afraid to expose the Christian faith” to others. I resent that comment. I am not “afraid” of anything. What concerns me is not our exposure to others but the exposure of Islam to us. We don’t need to have classes at a CATHOLIC parish on Islam. We need classes on Christ Jesus and His Church! With all the poor catechesis, misinformation being heard by Catholics, need for freshening our faith and the need to get to know Our Saviour in a deeper way, why in the world would we be giving time in our parish hall to Muslims? If Muslims want to teach us about their faith, they can do so at a mosque and invite us over there. Do you seriously think the Lord Jesus would want us teaching about a religious that butchers Christianity, teaches a false salvation history, minimizes the Lord to just a prophet, and actually teaches that Christians will be judged to hell by Jesus Himself? Should we really be using this valuable time in our parish hall for Islamic understanding? NONSENSE. Please don’t try to warp my concerns into hysterics. Thanks and God bless.

I have to completely agree with everything you’ve posted here. I’m all for freedom to practice ones faith, and I understand very well the need to understand the faith of others in some capacity at least so you can understand them. Heck, such a thing helps evangalize. But the rub is this, before one can really handle learning about another persons faith, they have to be very well rooted in their own. We can’t generally say this today, people don’t hardly know what Christianity is.

As such, now isn’t the time to be worrying about what people do or don’t know about Islam. Rather, now is the time to worry about what people do and don’t know, and more importantly do accept and don’t accept about Christianity. We need people to be faithful Christians first, then we can take time to learn about Islam.

I agree with gurneyhalleck1 and crazzeto on this one.

Anna

 

[Tsuwano]

Maybe I should word it slightly differently. Atheists do not want Christianity in America. Christians do not want Islam in America. Why don’t you believe that’s a correct view?

Because I don’t believe these statements represent a trend among the American people. I don’t even know if these statements are accurate. I know people who claim to be athiests and agnostics, but none of them have ever declared that they do not want Christianity in America. Most of them feel that individuals should be free to choose their personal beliefs. The same goes with almost every Christian I know when he considers the role of Islam in America. “Hey, it’s a free country!” is the refrain I most often hear. People should be free to practice their religion without interference seems to be a common belief among the people I know. No doubt, there are Christians in America who would adhere to the bigoted view that Muslims should not come to America, but I would find it ironic if Catholics held that view. It wasn’t very long ago that “Nativists” campaigned to keep Catholicism out of America. If it was bigotry when it was a view held against Catholics and Jews, then it continues to be bigotry when applied to Muslims.

 

[dzheremi]

It wasn’t very long ago that “Nativists” campaigned to keep Catholicism out of America. If it was bigotry when it was a view held against Catholics and Jews, then it continues to be bigotry when applied to Muslims.

Is the supposed bigotry we see today in the USA towards Islam rooted in the same types of claims as the “Nativists”, though? Some of it definitely is (I’m thinking of certain Youtube videos I’ve seen about Muslims “outbreeding” Europeans; shameful!), but more worryingly, a lot of it is not. Among those who actually start out studying why people might fear the rise of Islam in their country from the position that you apparently hold, it seems like a significant number come to realize that Islam is fundamentally different than any form of Christianity or Judaism or most other religions you can name that (mostly) peacefully live in the USA, and are (mostly) tolerated there. This difference has a myriad of proposed causes, not the least of which is the disturbingly intertwined nature of the religion and the state which produces repressive regimes in every Muslim-majority country with the exception of secular nations like Syria and Tunisia and the until-recently-quite-Christian anomaly of Lebanon.

So I am afraid that while I see your point, I must protest. Not all “bigotry” is of the same character, even when apparently centered on the same aspect of life.

 

[Tsuwano]

Is the supposed bigotry we see today in the USA towards Islam rooted in the same types of claims as the “Nativists”, though? Some of it definitely is (I’m thinking of certain Youtube videos I’ve seen about Muslims “outbreeding” Europeans; shameful!), but more worryingly, a lot of it is not. Among those who actually start out studying why people might fear the rise of Islam in their country from the position that you apparently hold, it seems like a significant number come to realize that Islam is fundamentally different than any form of Christianity or Judaism or most other religions you can name that (mostly) peacefully live in the USA, and are (mostly) tolerated there. This difference has a myriad of proposed causes, not the least of which is the disturbingly intertwined nature of the religion and the state which produces repressive regimes in every Muslim-majority country with the exception of secular nations like Syria and Tunisia and the until-recently-quite-Christian anomaly of Lebanon.

So I am afraid that while I see your point, I must protest. Not all “bigotry” is of the same character, even when apparently centered on the same aspect of life.

First of all, Muslims already live peacefully in America. I have not heard of any major disruptions in American society due to American Muslims who already live among their Christian and Jewish neighbors. Secondly, I understand that Islam is different from Christianity and Judaism and any other religion you care to name, but I do not believe that means we have a right to discriminate against them. I also understand that there is prejudice and bigotry directed against Christianity and other faiths in predominantly Islamic lands. I also realize that there is an “intertwined nature” between Islam and most of the States in which Islam is a dominant religion, and I believe this is regrettable, but again, I don’t believe that fact makes it ok for us to discriminate agains Muslims or against their faith in our nation. You seem to be saying that it is ok to be bigoted against Muslims because their faith is fundamentally different from other faiths which are present in America. I reject this view. Bigotry or prejudice against anyone because of their race or religion is wrong. Period. I might also add that the charge that Islam is fundamentally different from us and therefore deserving of discrimination, is a charge I frequently heard thrown at Black Americans when I was growing up in the southern states of the U.S. in the early 60’s. It is a charge born of fear and hysteria. I refuse to give in to fear. My own Christian faith compels me not to.

 

[crazzeto]

First of all, Muslims already live peacefully in America. I have not heard of any major disruptions in American society due to American Muslims who already live among their Christian and Jewish neighbors. Secondly, I understand that Islam is different from Christianity and Judaism and any other religion you care to name, but I do not believe that means we have a right to discriminate against them. I also understand that there is prejudice and bigotry directed against Christianity and other faiths in predominantly Islamic lands. I also realize that there is an “intertwined nature” between Islam and most of the States in which Islam is a dominant religion, and I believe this is regrettable, but again, I don’t believe that fact makes it ok for us to discriminate agains Muslims or against their faith in our nation. You seem to be saying that it is ok to be bigoted against Muslims because their faith is fundamentally different from other faiths which are present in America. I reject this view. Bigotry or prejudice against anyone because of their race or religion is wrong. Period. I might also add that the charge that Islam is fundamentally different from us and therefore deserving of discrimination, is a charge I frequently heard thrown at Black Americans when I was growing up in the southern states of the U.S. in the early 60’s. It is a charge born of fear and hysteria. I refuse to give in to fear. My own Christian faith compels me not to.

Undo discrimination is never good, and much of what you say is true. I lived not far from Dearborn Michigan growing up, this is muslim central USA. The only place in the world with more muslims in a single city in fact, is in Saudi Arabia.

That said, this information doesn’t mean we shouldn’t be wary. Alreardy Muslims in this country are fighting court battles to have Sheria law put in place. Is that something you want? Is that something that you think they’re going to keep to them selves? These Muslims aren’t stupid, they know that you can’t have two different sets of laws for two different sets of people in the same nation. That just doesn’t work, but already they’re getting court victories due to incredly stupid bleeding heart Judges who hold no regard or respect for the constitution of the United States!

Tolarance and acceptance doesn’t mean you roll over and let the minority group de-jur do whatever they want to do. You don’t just let them dictate law, you don’t just let them dictate societal norms. It means you don’t treat them inhumainly because after all, they are the very image of the living God as well.

 

[Tsuwano]

Undo discrimination is never good, and much of what you say is true. I lived not far from Dearborn Michigan growing up, this is muslim central USA. The only place in the world with more muslims in a single city in fact, is in Saudi Arabia.

That said, this information doesn’t mean we shouldn’t be wary. Alreardy Muslims in this country are fighting court battles to have Sheria law put in place. Is that something you want? Is that something that you think they’re going to keep to them selves? These Muslims aren’t stupid, they know that you can’t have two different sets of laws for two different sets of people in the same nation. That just doesn’t work, but already they’re getting court victories due to incredly stupid bleeding heart Judges who hold no regard or respect for the constitution of the United States!

Tolarance and acceptance doesn’t mean you roll over and let the minority group de-jur do whatever they want to do. You don’t just let them dictate law, you don’t just let them dictate societal norms. It means you don’t treat them inhumainly because after all, they are the very image of the living God as well.

No, of course I don’t wish to give up constitutional law in American society, and I have faith that our judicial system will remain faithful to the Constitution and the laws that protect all citizens of our nation. I agree that tolerance and acceptance don’t mean you “roll over” and let the minority group do whatever it wants to do, but I do think it means looking at the situation minorities find themselves in and honestly seeking to accomodate their needs where we can. It certainly doesn’t mean demonizing them and working up hysteria against them. It does mean seeking to understand them where ever we encounter them; on our streets, in our schools, and yes, even in our churches. American society has a great deal of experience with immigrants. Unfortunately, fear and misunderstanding, leading to bigotry, are a part of that experience. We have encountered these problems before and, if Muslims should become a sizable immigrant group in the United States, I have no doubt we will find ways and means to accommodate them and accept them into our society without forfeiting the rights that other citizens enjoy.

 

[jam070406]

First of all, Muslims already live peacefully in America.

The Christians in Lebanon thought this way at the beginning too.

 

[Tsuwano]

The Christians in Lebanon thought this way at the beginning too.

So, what’s your point? Do you advocate rounding up those Muslims already living peacefully in America and sending them back somewhere? This is their home, too, you know. I guess we could create a ghetto for them, build a wall or something, maybe forbid them from interacting with non Muslims. We could just continually fear them and make our children fear them by spreading lies about them. What, exactly, do you mean by your remark? What would you have us do?

 

[jam070406]

So, what’s your point? Do you advocate rounding up those Muslims already living peacefully in America and sending them back somewhere? This is their home, too, you know. I guess we could create a ghetto for them, build a wall or something, maybe forbid them from interacting with non Muslims. We could just continually fear them and make our children fear them by spreading lies about them. What, exactly, do you mean by your remark? What would you have us do?

Pray for conversion. Or else deal with places like Dearborn, or Hamtramck’s call to prayer, or thousands blocking streets in Paris to bow to Mecca. Or worse, what happens in places like Lebanon or Iraq. Are you prepared to be a martyr? Or have not been aware of the pleas of those Christians suffering in the middle east? Or the warnings from Bishops that are saying the vaccuum being left by dying Christianity is being filled by Muslims and Europe could become overrun by Islam?

 

[GaryTaylor]

First of all, Muslims already live peacefully in America. I have not heard of any major disruptions in American society due to American Muslims who already live among their Christian and Jewish neighbors. Secondly, I understand that Islam is different from Christianity and Judaism and any other religion you care to name, but I do not believe that means we have a right to discriminate against them. I also understand that there is prejudice and bigotry directed against Christianity and other faiths in predominantly Islamic lands. I also realize that there is an “intertwined nature” between Islam and most of the States in which Islam is a dominant religion, and I believe this is regrettable, but again, I don’t believe that fact makes it ok for us to discriminate agains Muslims or against their faith in our nation. You seem to be saying that it is ok to be bigoted against Muslims because their faith is fundamentally different from other faiths which are present in America. I reject this view. Bigotry or prejudice against anyone because of their race or religion is wrong. Period. I might also add that the charge that Islam is fundamentally different from us and therefore deserving of discrimination, is a charge I frequently heard thrown at Black Americans when I was growing up in the southern states of the U.S. in the early 60’s. It is a charge born of fear and hysteria. I refuse to give in to fear. My own Christian faith compels me not to.

I’m not sure what your point is? White America and Christianity live peacefully in America as doe’s Latin America. What does that mean and how does it bridge the gap?

“I also realize that there is an “intertwined nature” between Islam and most of the States in which Islam is a dominant religion,”

False misconception and you have to prove it statistically to me, do you have a link?
I fail to this anywhere. In my eyes Islam is a silent dangerous religion today. Which remains to be hidden and yet promote’s violence among itself when its among itself. Good Morning America just showed this last week on the news. And yes there are a few Good Muslims, I get that.

Where is Islam in American interacting with America and living peacefully with Atheism, secularism? Never mind Christianity. There is no such thing as being in it, but not of it. Your either an American first OR THERES A PROBLEM. Thats how this country runs and will continue to run. Its not I’m a muslim First and impose my will on america as a religion. Its I’m an American first, who happens to be Islamic and I love all americans and live peacefully among all. Where is this happening? I’'ll visit there this week and stay until I could probe long enough to see the truth for what it is? Tell me where to go in New England, the Tri State area? I’m familiar with islam here I grew up among it here. I learned to play ball in Father Panik Village in Bpt CT. Google that if you want see a Dangerous Federal Housing Project that was knocked down in the 80s. Then from there I went to college on Athletic Scholarship. So there are many of us who can and do get along. But change did’t roll in on the wheels of inevitability.

“You seem to be saying that it is ok to be bigoted against Muslims because their faith is fundamentally different from other faiths which are present in America.”

No I never said this. I’m saying theres no sense in talking religion when you can’t understand youself and realize “everyone” is different and is born with preconceived learned behavior. There is no exception to the rule. Those of us who have strived to overcome our differences, first spoke honestly about we thought about one another. Then we argued, then we laughed, then we learned to love and respect. We didn’t arrive insisting our way of life was correct and its our way or the highway. Thats not gonna work never. Islam needs to get over itself and get over the idea of “slavery”. Who is slavery attibuted in the world to today? Who is promoting world violence today? Somehow all want to seperate radical Islam from Islam and thats not no-ones problembut Islams And the only one doing nothing about it is Islam. What are they doing to stop Radical Islam?

“Bigotry or prejudice against anyone because of their race or religion is wrong. Period.”

And who is promoting this thinking? It all well and fine to wave to pom poms around and say Christians and the white man need to get over their racist bigoted predjudice ways. I’m saying Islam and the Black man need to get over theirs? Slavery is over. The chips on the shoulders either need to go to counseling or get over themselves. Some have, the “majority” have not. This is a double edged sword which you don’t seem to want to admit. So whats is the REAL issue? Its a lack of real, honest conversation. And a lack of effort to really mak it happen. An when it does happen should “religion” be the topic? I don’t think so, matter of fact I know so. Its a waste of time till rerspect for all life can “first” be arrived at!

Islam needs to deal with itself. What is it doing to correct it own corrupt, violent, bigoted thinking? Where is this happening.

 

[Anna_Scott]

Undo discrimination is never good, and much of what you say is true. I lived not far from Dearborn Michigan growing up, this is muslim central USA. The only place in the world with more muslims in a single city in fact, is in Saudi Arabia.

That said, this information doesn’t mean we shouldn’t be wary. Alreardy Muslims in this country are fighting court battles to have Sheria law put in place. Is that something you want? Is that something that you think they’re going to keep to them selves? These Muslims aren’t stupid, they know that you can’t have two different sets of laws for two different sets of people in the same nation. That just doesn’t work, but already they’re getting court victories due to incredly stupid bleeding heart Judges who hold no regard or respect for the constitution of the United States!

Tolarance and acceptance doesn’t mean you roll over and let the minority group de-jur do whatever they want to do. You don’t just let them dictate law, you don’t just let them dictate societal norms. It means you don’t treat them inhumainly because after all, they are the very image of the living God as well.

crazzeto,

Perhaps it is the insidious nature of “relativism” that is chipping away at the Christian Church, and it is certainly seen in the legal system. You’re right, religious tolerance doesn’t mean you roll over and let the minority groups dictate societal norms.

Anna

 

[Tsuwano]

Pray for conversion. Or else deal with places like Dearborn, or Hamtramck’s call to prayer, or thousands blocking streets in Paris to bow to Mecca. Or worse, what happens in places like Lebanon or Iraq. Are you prepared to be a martyr? Or have not been aware of the pleas of those Christians suffering in the middle east? Or the warnings from Bishops that are saying the vaccuum being left by dying Christianity is being filled by Muslims and Europe could become overrun by Islam?

Well, as a Christian I have faith that the Lord is with his Church and his people and always will be. I believe he is with Christians who are oppressed and suffering throughout the world. The Lord did not promise that Europe would always be predominantly Christian or that Christians would always be more numerous than other faiths around the world. He promised that he would be with us where ever we found ourselves. So, actually, I don’t worry that I may live among Muslims or, as I do now, among Buddhists, or among athiests for that matter. I worry that I may live the Gospel and always be faithful to the Lord where ever he calls me to be. I always pray that those who have not heard the Gospel may hear it and respond to God’s call in their lives. I do not believe that the message of Jesus is heard when it comes from the mouths of those who hate or fear or who build up enmity against others because they believe differently from the way we do. Am I prepared to be a martyr? Goodness gracious, no! Neither do I want to be one. I do, however, wish to be faithful to the Lord Jesus Christ in all I do. I trust that if I am ever called to be a witness to his love by offering my life, he will grant me his grace and courage to do what must be done. One other thing I hope, and that is never to fear the Lord will leave me, even in the midst of those who do not believe as I do.

 

[pismopal]

There are hundreds of thousands of Christians in this country who fled muslim oppression in countries with muslim majorities. There are lots of Assyrians in California…just talk to one of them if you want to know what life will be like with a heavily muslim country.