Muslim converts to Christianity

[Angelos]

She hasn’t claimed anything that is faulty or twisted. Moreover, the Qur’an does not teach Trinitarian doctrine.

But I think her take on it is pretty amusing at least. Reminds me of how confounding the whole business is to begin with.

Actually, I find the way the Koran presents the Christian Trinity rather amusing. The almighty god of the Koran mistakes Jesus’ mother as the second person of the Trinity and replaces Holy Spirit with the Son.


Another amusing and confounding thing: you are responding to my posts. I thought I was on your list of ignored posters LOL

Final amusing thing: Islam obstructs its followers’ ability to understand certain things without confusion. Even a former Reformist can forget what she knew about the trinitarian doctrine prior to her conversion/apostasy.

 

[Sister_Amy]

Actually, I find the way the Koran presents the Christian Trinity rather amusing. The almighty god of the Koran mistakes Jesus’ mother as the second person of the Trinity and replaces Holy Spirit with the Son.

Funny then how she didn’t say that though. She said son and holy spirit… not wife/mother and son. Proves you wrong upon wrong. Ouch.

Another amusing and confounding thing: you are responding to my posts. I thought I was on your list of ignored posters LOL

Yep you are. But I’m soooo bored today! So I hit “view post.”

Final amusing thing: Islam obstructs its followers’ ability to understand certain things without confusion. Even a former Reformist can forget what she knew about the trinitarian doctrine prior to her conversion/apostasy.

LOL. Walhamdulillah. As Muslim Woman pointed out already (quite cleverly, I might add), the Trinity is, to Christians, a mystery!! hehe

 

[inJESUS]

There is only ONE deity in Christianity. The things you claim are faulty and twisted form of the Trinitiarian doctrine taught you in your Koran and are definitely alien to our scripture and faith.

i’ve yet to meet/discuss with just one Muslim who reads the Quran and come close (to be generous) to what Christianity teaches.

 

[Angelos]

Funny then how she didn’t say that though. She said son and holy spirit… not wife/mother and son. Proves you wrong upon wrong. Ouch.

Immature joy of yours! LOLThis was not my point. I am more interested in what Muslim woman’s scripture (Koran) mistakenly teaches about Christian Trinity than in how Muslim woman’s comments were an extension of that flawed teaching in the Koran. Although she got the persons of the Trinity right (which I appreciate a lot in the light of her being a Muslim), she unfortunately fell short of understanding the unity of three distinct persons in one Godhead . Anyway her knowledge of Christian tenets surpasses that of Mohammad’s scribes

Yep you are. But I’m soooo bored today! So I hit “view post.”

Here is some friendly advice for you: when you feel bored, you could get yourself a pet ( camel, for instance), or just make a small cube in your backyard so that you could train yourself for the rituals of pilgrimage.

LOL. Walhamdulillah. As Muslim Woman pointed out already (quite cleverly, I might add), the Trinity is, to Christians, a mystery!! hehe

The bitter truth that the so-called almighty and all-knowing god of the Koran fails to grasp the essentials of the Trinitarian doctrine is a greater mystery for us former Muslims.

 

[inJESUS]

Funny then how she didn’t say that though. She said son and holy spirit…

here i give her credit for stating the persons correctly, something she surely did not read in the Quran.

As Muslim Woman pointed out already (quite cleverly, I might add), the Trinity is, to Christians, a mystery

 

[Sister_Amy]

here i give her credit for stating the persons correctly, something she surely did not read in the Quran.

 

[inJESUS]

, according to all that we have heard with our ears.

That is the Darby Translation.

What amuses me is probably not making sense to you. morningstar said he understood the Trinity. And Muslim Woman asked, but isn’t it a mystery? who says that a mystery cannot be understood? there are degrees of understanding…we can explain the Trinity to our best of human ability but we cannot fully understand it in the same way we can explain that God is omnipresent/omnipotent/all hearing but we cannot fully grasp it…

Muslims do not have that problem. One God means One God. There is nothing like the One God. Becomes even more difficult to rationalize if somehow there are three personalities of that One God, because that means there might actually be something like the One God… Or there might be something “like” the Father.

is it our problem if you present Allah as Wordless and Spiritless Amy? no it is not…it becomes more problematic when you believe the Quran is the eternal and uncreated Word of Allah and that Allah sends his Spirit “Gabriel” to strengthen all believers at the same time as an omnipotent and omnipresent angel…it becomes problematic when you believe Allah is not omnipresent in person but in wisdom as if Allah and his wisdom are seperate entitities…if you will tell us “you do not understand these things”, do not blame us for having no fear of compromising what God says because Muslims do not want to discuss them.

 

[Sister_Amy]

Not this again.

I was reading about one of the four great Imams being brought repeatedly in front of the “Caliph” who was basically a king pressured by his advisors to enforce theological uniformity…

He was dragged, barely clothed, in front of the “Caliph” and asked if the Qur’an was created.

This happened many times and he always gave the same answer! Always!

Do you know what the answer was?

 

[inJESUS]

Not this again.

I was reading about one of the four great Imams being brought repeatedly in front of the “Caliph” who was basically a king pressured by his advisors to enforce theological uniformity…

He was dragged, barely clothed, in front of the “Caliph” and asked if the Qur’an was created.

This happened many times and he always gave the same answer! Always!

Do you know what the answer was?

no Amy i don’t know about this specific incident. I know that the ijma’ of Ahlul Sunna is that the Quran is the eternal uncreated word of Allah.

I know that you don’t like to address this topic but this does not mean you can present an Islam that is not “confusing” yet call Christianity confusing because we do not fear to compromise monothiesm if God showed Himself as Father, Word and Spirit in OT and NT.

You are obviously free to tackle these issues or not, but it wouldn’t be fair to neglect this part of Islam just because Muslims don’t like to talk about these issues in Islam or sometimes don’t even bother to ask such questions.

 

[Silouan]

Salaam/peace;
Roman Catholics & Orthodox Christians are same ?

They are the same in the sense that we both have the same origin. The Roman Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church were one Church at one time for 1000 years. Depending on which side you are on, one will say they left us and deviated.

There are some differences between the two. The Orthodox Church does not recognize the Pope as the supreme leader of the Church. So some have said that the Orthodox Church is the Roman Catholic church without the pope. This isn’t necessarily true. There are alot of theological differences.

How Orthodox Christianity is better than Islam ? Which original holy book do u follow now ?

Orthodox Christianity is more concerned about the right faith, while Islam is more concerned about the right practice. Not that Islam does not value faith, it does, but more importance is placed on tjhe outward practice. For example, in Islam you are taught how to pray salat, outwardly speaking, you have the pillars of valid prayer and the condition of a valid prayer. But there is very little emphasis on the inward validity of the prayer, like khushoo. And in reality, your prayer is invalid if there is no khushoo. Because all you are doing is excercising if there is no khushoo.

There are alot of things that I like better.

The Holy book that I adhere to is the bible.

ooopsss …I had no idea about that . Where did u get this info ?

That is what I believed when I was a Muslim. I would use the following hadith as a proof.

Muhammad said, “There will not cease to be a group from my ummah triumphant upon the truth. Those who oppose them will not be able to harm them, nor will those who abandon them, until Allah’s order comes about (Day of Judgment) and they are in that state.” (Bukhari)

When I pondered on this hadith as a Muslim, this was a hadith which provided the sole proof for the validity of Traditional Sunni Islam. Just look at the hadith. There will not cease to be a group from my Ummah truim,phant upon the truth. NOT CEASE, are the clear words. This means there will be an unbroken chain of transmitters from Muhammad to the companions to the tabieen, to the tabi tabieen up until now. And all other groups in the Islamic world do not have this claim of an unbroken chain, not the Shia, not the Salafi, not the Quran only, not none of them. But the Traditional Sunni Muslims. And thus it is obivous that Allah caused those other groups to die out. None of them exist, if they do exist today, like the Salafis, Mutazila, they were revived, they don’t have an unbroken chain. NOT CEASE. Show me the Salafis not ceasing to exist, from century to century up until now. Or any other group for that matter. This is what I believed as a Muslim, and this is why I followed the Traditional Sunni Muslims.

In Christ,

Silouan

 

[Silouan]

I have that CD set. Used to have it actually, I just let someone else borrow it. Out of curiosity, did you listen to it before or after you left Islam?

Actually both, before I left Islam and after I left Islam as well. I learned alot more from the second time I listened to it after I left Islam. Hamza Yusuf is an awesome speaker.

Honestly, I still listen to many of my previous Islamic lectures. I have many.

In Christ,

Silouan

 

[Silouan]

But in fact you epitomize that hadith, because as you said you made it difficult for yourself, and then it overpowered you. Wallaahi, Muhammad the Messenger of Allah, may the peace and blessings of Allah be upon him, spoke the truth.

I was well aware of the complete hadith. I use to teach hadith. But how can you consciously engage in a haraam act knowing it is haraam. Yes Islam overpowered me, but how do you consciously engage in a haraam act. Allah says, the Quran, Oh you who believe, fear allah as He should be feared.

Did you make a particular effort to study only outward sciences? Or inward ones?

Imam Malik said something really interesting–at least, I’ve read this attributed to Imam Malik. He said that learning Tasawwuf (inward sciences) without learning Knowledge (outward sciences fiqh, shari’ah, etc) is the way to heresy, and that learning Knowledge without the inward sciences is the way to corruption, but that you have to study both to find the truth and the reality of Islam.

I am well aware of Imam Malik’s statement there are various narrations of it.

I was actually part of a Tariqa, the Shadhili tariqa, I had a spiritual guide. So I spent more time studying Tasawwuf than the other sciences. But Tasawwuf, is Ilm, Amal and Hal. That is the methodology of Tasawwuf, from beginning to end.

As someone who converted to Islam from Christianity, I see spirituality in Islam that I couldn’t even begin to imagine as a Christian. And I do see places where, in Islam, people have diverged from spiritual and tended towards legal traditions. But I really see that spirituality is there, in Islam, with purpose, and with knowledge.

Tasawwuf was the best thing that happened to me, and it is the best thing that Islam has to offer. And I learned alot from being part of the Shadhili tariqa. Stuff that I still practice today, because Tasawwuf came from Orthodox Christianity. When I read Orthodox Spiritual text, it is literally almost identical to Tasawwuf.

Islam is a Christian sect, probably branched off from the early Ebionite Christian sect, and developed into a complete new religion.

In Christ,

Silouan

 

[Muslim_Woman]

Salaam/peace;

… I am more interested in what Muslim woman’s scripture (Koran) mistakenly teaches about Christian Trinity …

here is one verse from holy Quran…the ** word Trinity is not mentioned here.**

And when Allah will say:

O Isa son of Marium!

did you say to men, Take me and my mother
** for two gods besides Allah**

[5.116]

A Cathloc told me :

We Catholics pray to Mary as the Mother of God, Mother of Jesus Christ.

He crowned Her Queen of Heaven, and** presented Her to us as Protectress** and Mother.

forum.catholic.org/viewtopic…675591#p675591

In Islam , if u beleive anyone other than God can

save/ protect u is called shirk/ blasphemy. Only punishment ( if die without repentance ) is eternal fire.

 

[Angelos]

Wallahi… love it! Sure, Muslims suck at debating. Self included of course (as we all know!)

The Bible also says there is nothing like Elohim. 2 Samuel 7:22

Wherefore thou art great, Jehovah Elohim; for there is none like thee, neither is there any God beside thee, according to all that we have heard with our ears.

That is the Darby Translation.

What amuses me is probably not making sense to you. morningstar said he understood the Trinity. And Muslim Woman asked, but isn’t it a mystery?

That’s what was funny to me. She is too clever for you guys I think. The irony is just… it’s so strong in this thread, it’s getting the better of me.

Is it a mystery or not? Do you understand it or not? Does it make sense or not?

Of course it’s a mystery that nobody can understand. And it doesn’t make a lick of sense either, which is why you have to call it a mystery.

Muslims do not have that problem. One God means One God. There is nothing like the One God. Becomes even more difficult to rationalize if somehow there are three personalities of that One God, because that means there might actually be something like the One God… Or there might be something “like” the Father.

Really, the irony of this thread is just terrifying… can’t you see that?

Could you please explain to me what some of the codes at the introduction of several Surahs in your scripture really mean? Alif Lam Mim. Mystery? Hmm. I think those cryptic letters warn the reader from the start that the Koran is full of mysteries and thus makes no sense.

What about the following verse:

Surah 3:7
He it is Who hath revealed unto thee (Muhammad) the Scripture wherein are clear revelations - they are the substance of the Book - and others (which are) allegorical. But those in whose hearts is doubt pursue, forsooth, that which is allegorical seeking (to cause) dissension by seeking to explain it. None knoweth its explanation save Allah. And those who are of sound instruction say: We believe therein; the whole is from our Lord; but only men of understanding really heed.

I can clearly see that the ones writing the Koran were very much influenced by the notion of mystery.

 

[Angelos]

Salaam/peace;

here is one verse from holy Quran…the ** word Trinity is not mentioned here.**

And when Allah will say:

O Isa son of Marium!

did you say to men, Take me and my mother
** for two gods besides Allah**

[5.116]

If you are good at arithmetics, you can easily figure out that TWO gods (2) beside ONE Allah (1) makes THREE (3). LOL

The only Trinity the Koran mistakenly refers to is composed of the Father (Allah), Mother (Mary), and Son (Jesus).

A Cathloc told me :

We Catholics pray to Mary as the Mother of God, Mother of Jesus Christ.

He crowned Her Queen of Heaven, and** presented Her to us as Protectress** and Mother.

forum.catholic.org/viewtopic…675591#p675591

In Islam , if u beleive anyone other than God can

save/ protect u is called shirk/ blasphemy. Only punishment ( if die without repentance ) is eternal fire.

This is not a sound comparison and judgment since it is derived from the distortion of what a Catholic says. First, Christianity (all Churches including the Reformed ones) teaches that the only Mediator between God and humanity and the ONLY Savior is no one else but JESUS. Second, that Catholic poster does NOT say in his/her response that Mary is our Savior.

The problem with the statements in the Koran is that it deliberately denies what Christians really believe about the Trinity and the Virgin. Muslims, however, in defense of their scripture, try to justify those faulty remarks of the Koran in vain. If Virgin Mary were really God, we would not be ashamed of declaring it.

 

[inJESUS]

Islam is a Christian sect, probably branched off from the early Ebionite Christian sect, and developed into a complete new religion.

In Christ,

Silouan

couldn’t agree more.

 

[Muslim_Woman]

Salaam/peace;

If you are good at arithmetics, you can easily figure out that TWO gods (2) beside ONE Allah (1) makes THREE (3). LOL

Quran did not say Mary , Jesus & God are Trinity …show me where is it ?

To believe that Mary (p) is mother of God is shirk / blasphemy . To believe that Mary (p) has any power to protect u is blasphemy.

Christans are worshipping human being , angels BESIDES one true God . Quran is rightly pointed out about this mistake & warn Christans not to repeat the sin.

 

[Angelos]

Salaam/peace;

Quran did not say Mary , Jesus & God are Trinity …show me where is it ?

That flawed teaching of the Koran is in the very verse you previously quoted.

Allah supposedly questions Issa and asks Him who taught Christians to worship Jesus (1) and Mary (1) beside Allah (1). I can see THREE persons allegedly worshipped by Christians.

Where in your Koran is the CHRISTIAN Trinity condemned or denied? Could you please show me the verse where Allah says the three persons in the Christian Trinity are Father, Son, and Holy Spirit? Where does Allah say that Christians worship Holy Spirit and that the Spirit is not divine?

To believe that Mary (p) is mother of God is shirk / blasphemy . To believe that Mary (p) has any power to protect u is blasphemy.

This is what you suppose. Don’t you believe that Abraham is the father of Islam? Don’t you believe that Mohammad can intercede on your behalf? Don’t you read in your Koran that there are some angels recording the good and bad deeds of a believer? Isn’t this blasphemy? LOL Double standard.

Your definition of blasphemy is not the same as ours. This is why your arguments make no sense to us.

Christans are worshipping human being , angels BESIDES one true God . Quran is rightly pointed out about this mistake & warn Christans not to repeat the sin.

This is a common lie I guess.

Christians worship ONE TRUE GOD. We do not worship humanbeings or angels. This accusation of worshipping angels must be NEW, for I have never heard it before.

If the way we venerate Mary makes you think that we adore Her, go and check your scripture. The Koran cannot separate Mary from Jesus in many cases and directly grants Mary the same attributes Issa has: being a sign for the whole mankind, being elevated to a lofty place (status or rank). A person reading the Koran might mistakenly presume that Mary is the only prophetess in Islam.

 

[inJESUS]

Your definition of blasphemy is not the same as ours. This is why your arguments make no sense to us.

of course not since they see nothing wrong in this verse:

Say: ‘If your fathers, your sons, your brothers, your wives, your clan, your possessions that you have gained, commerce you fear may slacken, dwellings you love – if these are dearer to you than God **AND **His Messenger, and to struggle in His way, then wait till God brings His command; God guides not the people of the ungodly.’

Muhammad had an identity crisis when he plagiarized Jesus’ words, the Word in flesh, not a created human who can equate himself with God, as Muhammad did, and which was never done my any Biblical prophet.

 

[Muslim_Woman]

Salaam/peace;

Orthodox Christianity is more concerned about the right faith, while Islam is more concerned about the right practice.

how do u pray now ?

The Holy book that I adhere to is the bible.

which version ?

And all other groups in the Islamic world do not have this claim of an unbroken chain,

ur sis is right …u unnecessarily made the religion complicated.