Muslim converts to Christianity

[dzheremi]

Salaam/peace;

this has been answered already. That verse does not have the word Trinity . .

And this answer has itself been answered already. The Bible likewise does not contain the word “trinity”, but that does not mean that it does not contain teachings on the concept. The Quran contains incorrect teachings about the nature of the Trinity. Period.

 

[Angelos]

Salaam/peace;

Good to know that present days Jews are not committing the same mistake Jews in the past did .

Prophet Muhammed (p) had a dialogue with Jewish leaders. He asked them why they consider Ezra as son of God.

Ans was like that when Jews lost their holy book , it was Prophet Ezra (p) who recited the whole book from memory .

Thus Jews were able to get their holy book back . So , out of respect & thinking that he must be son of God , otherwise how could he knew the whole book , they gave him the title ’ son of God.

Then Prophet Muhammed (p) asked , if just recalling the holy book from memory can make a human being son of God , then what should be the status of Prophet Musa/ Moses (p) on whom the whole book was revealed ?

Why Jews don’t think of Moses (p) also as son of God or more than that as surely he is more honorable to receive the book from God. Jews had no answer of that .

The Jews call Ezra/ `Uzair a son of Allah,
and the Christians call Christ the son of Allah.

That is the saying from their mouth; (In this) they are intimate; what the Unbelievers of the old used to say.

Allah’s curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the truth.

[Qur’an 9:30]

**It is also saddening to see that that you are repeating the mistakes of your pagan prophet by slandering Jews. **

Your argument has no evidence and is a fallacious one since it is apparently a story fabricated to evade the mistakes of Mohammad’s scribes.

This fabricated story presented by you fails to answer the following questions:

1) Why does ONLY one verse of the Koran (and that verse is of a very late date) accuse Jews of calling Esdra the Son of God? Why is the Koran unaware of this so-called mistake until the late Medina period?

2) How come the Koran draws parallelism between Jews and Christians with regard to the use of the title “Son of God”? Your fabricated story undermines its own credibility by claiming that Jews called Esdra Son of God out of respect whereas Christians used the same term to signify Jesus’ divinity. Thus, the parallelism in the Koran has no sense due to the different meanings attached to the same title by different groups. It is irrational for the Koran to criticise Jews and Christians alike although their supposed mistakes are not identical.

3) Why does the Koran attribute this so-called mistake to all Jews of its time rather than to a certain group of Jewish believers (sect) ? History rebuts this claim of the Koran as calling Esdra or anyone the Son of God has never been an official tenet or dogma of Judaism.

4) Why do the authors of the Koran insist on using a present tense marker while denouncing Jews and Christians alike if your theory that the alleged mistake of the Jews remained in the past unlike that of Christians?

5) Why does the Koran never refer to Esdra with regard to his significance in Jewish history? How do we know for sure that the Koran confirms the Jewish belief that Esdra could recite the Torah and helped Jews retrieve their Scripture?

 

[dolphinlove]

Angelos,
I have a feeling your questions will go unanswered, yet again.

 

[Angelos]

Salaam/peace;

this has been answered already. That verse does not have the word Trinity . It simply stated what some / many Christians did the wrong thing by worhipping Mary (p). Making staute of her , kneeling in front of her …these are prohibited regarding all the major holy books.

If u ask / pray to someone else except God , it’s called shirk/ blasphemy , punishment is eternal hell fire.

So , God warned people not to take any diety except / besides Him only.

Your pagan prophet also contends that Christians take their monks and priests as Lords beside Allah. However, Issa in the Koran forgets to denounce this and supposedly condemns Christians only for worshipping His mother and Him beside Allah. LOL

Many verses in the Koran clearly show that your pagan prophet’s scribes misunderstood the Christian Trinity or deliberately misrepresented it.

First, Surah 5 introduces the number of Christian deities as three and names them Allah, Maryam, and Issa. Why three if the Koran does not refer to the Trinity in this context?

Second, the following verses in the Koran criticise the Trinitarian doctrine by contending that Issa was considered the THIRD of the THREE:

Surah 5:73-75

They surely disbelieve who say: Lo! Allah is the third of three; when there is no God save the One God. If they desist not from so saying a painful doom will fall on those of them who disbelieve. Will they not rather turn unto Allah and seek forgiveness of Him ? For Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. The Messiah, son of Mary, was no other than a messenger, messengers (the like of whom) had passed away before him. And his mother was a saintly woman. And they both used to eat (earthly) food. See how We make the revelations clear for them, and see how they are turned away!

Who is the second person of the Christian Trinity if the third one is Issa? Why do the authors of the Koran always insert Mary’s name next to that of Issa’s whenever they supposedly refer to the Christian trinity?

Finally, why doesn’t the Koran criticise Christians for worshipping the Holy Spirit beside Allah? Why does it not clearly state that the Holy Spirit is angel Gabriel and that Christians mistakenly worship angel Gabriel in God’s place?

 

[Angelos]

Angelos,
I have a feeling your questions will go unanswered, yet again.

I shall keep asking no matter what. Their failure to answer my questions will not stop me

 

[dolphinlove]

I shall keep asking no matter what. Their failure to answer my questions will not stop me

They call the Pope ‘God rottweiler’, which obviously means he stands up and supports the church with great passion.
You, my friend, are a lion! The dedication and support you give to Christianity and Jesus is truly inspirational! I can only pray one day i have your dedication and knowledge to support the church the way you do.
God bless your efforts, as i believe you will be truly rewarded in heaven.
:hug1:

 

[inJESUS]

Angelos,

tough questions…that’s not fair

 

[Sam_777]

Muslim Woman;4131268:

Salaam/peace;

Good to know that present days Jews are not committing the same mistake Jews in the past did .

Prophet Muhammed (p) had a dialogue with Jewish leaders. He asked them why they consider Ezra as son of God.

Ans was like that when Jews lost their holy book , it was Prophet Ezra (p) who recited the whole book from memory .

Thus Jews were able to get their holy book back . So , out of respect & thinking that he must be son of God , otherwise how could he knew the whole book , they gave him the title ’ son of God.

Then Prophet Muhammed (p) asked , if just recalling the holy book from memory can make a human being son of God , then what should be the status of Prophet Musa/ Moses (p) on whom the whole book was revealed ?

Why Jews don’t think of Moses (p) also as son of God or more than that as surely he is more honorable to receive the book from God. Jews had no answer of that .

The Jews call Ezra/ `Uzair a son of Allah,
and the Christians call Christ the son of Allah.

That is the saying from their mouth; (In this) they are intimate; what the Unbelievers of the old used to say.

Allah’s curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the truth.

[Qur’an 9:30]

**It is also saddening to see that that you are repeating the mistakes of your pagan prophet by slandering Jews. **

Your argument has no evidence and is a fallacious one since it is apparently a story fabricated to evade the mistakes of Mohammad’s scribes.

This fabricated story presented by you fails to answer the following questions:

1) Why does ONLY one verse of the Koran (and that verse is of a very late date) accuse Jews of calling Esdra the Son of God? Why is the Koran unaware of this so-called mistake until the late Medina period?

2) How come the Koran draws parallelism between Jews and Christians with regard to the use of the title “Son of God”? Your fabricated story undermines its own credibility by claiming that Jews called Esdra Son of God out of respect whereas Christians used the same term to signify Jesus’ divinity. Thus, the parallelism in the Koran has no sense due to the different meanings attached to the same title by different groups. It is irrational for the Koran to criticise Jews and Christians alike although their supposed mistakes are not identical.

3) Why does the Koran attribute this so-called mistake to all Jews of its time rather than to a certain group of Jewish believers (sect) ? History rebuts this claim of the Koran as calling Esdra or anyone the Son of God has never been an official tenet or dogma of Judaism.

4) Why do the authors of the Koran insist on using a present tense marker while denouncing Jews and Christians alike if your theory that the alleged mistake of the Jews remained in the past unlike that of Christians?

5) Why does the Koran never refer to Esdra with regard to his significance in Jewish history? How do we know for sure that the Koran confirms the Jewish belief that Esdra could recite the Torah and helped Jews retrieve their Scripture?

Hi Angelos,

There is a Fatwa #3920 dated 01-06-1999, where the Islamic cleric claims the following reasons:

1. Not all Jews have said that Ezra is the son of God, and even if one group said that in the past, the whole Jews should be blamed for that.
2. Who said that were the Jews in the past and they already passed away.

islamweb.net/ver2/Fatwa/ShowFatwa.php?Option=FatwaId&lang=A&Id=3920

However, there are many things in Quran that contradict itself, yet you would always find non logical answer from our Islamic clerics.

 

[Angelos]

They call the Pope ‘God rottweiler’, which obviously means he stands up and supports the church with great passion.
You, my friend, are a lion! The dedication and support you give to Christianity and Jesus is truly inspirational! I can only pray one day i have your dedication and knowledge to support the church the way you do.
God bless your efforts, as i believe you will be truly rewarded in heaven.
:hug1:

Dear dolphinlove, you always make me blush with your compliments. Thanks.

Pray for this Angelos that he can be a devout disciple and loyal lamb of His Good Shepherd.

Hoping to see you at the celestial banquet of the Bridegroom. Bless you :hug3:

 

[Angelos]

Hi Angelos,

There is a Fatwa #3920 dated 01-06-1999, where the Islamic cleric claims the following reasons:

1. Not all Jews have said that Ezra is the son of God, and even if one group said that in the past, the whole Jews should be blamed for that.
2. Who said that were the Jews in the past and they already passed away.

islamweb.net/ver2/Fatwa/ShowFatwa.php?Option=FatwaId&lang=A&Id=3920

However, there are many things in Quran that contradict itself, yet you would always find non logical answer from our Islamic clerics.

I know how Muslim clerics do their best to defend their scripture. Nonetheless, their supposed solution to the problem gives birth to new questions.

1) The Koran by no means supports the first theory that only some Jews called Esdra the Son of God. There are many verses in the Koran that specifically refer to a certain group/sect of Jews and thus obstruct the way to mistaken and unfair generalization.

2) If we consider true the theory that some Jews called Esdra the Son of God in the past, it is still not reasonable for the Koran to draw parallelism between an unofficial group in Judaism (a group that was considered heretical and not essentially Jewish by mainstream Judaism) and official and orthodox Christians, whose basic tenet was that Jesus was the Son of God. The objection of the Muslim clerics is based on a false parallelism and the deliberate denial of the fact that the alleged Jewish group (heretic) would not be considered Jewish by the orthodox believers of Judaism.

3) The Koran verse drawing paralellism between Jews and Christians uses the present tense marker, which suggests that those Jews were alive and active in Mohammad’s time. From this fact arises the question when those Jews passed away and when and how their sect died out.

4) Muslim clerics cannot explain why the Koran seems unaware of the existence of that alleged heterodox Jewish sect until late Medina period.

 

[Angelos]

Angelos,

tough questions…that’s not fair

I know I am a tough teacher asking tough questions on an exam. Muslims will definitely fail my test if they do not study well

 

[cathopologist]

We Muslims believe that Allah can do whatever He likes, whatever He wishes.

**
Funny, i thought i read your post saying, "**Why would God take a human form. Just for the church? If God takes the human form… Having dual or triple personality for Jesus (even six fold) is wrong. We ahve to decide whether Jesus is a man or God or angel or Jinn or ghost. He can be only one thing, not many. By giving him more than one category, the church does the worst damage to reasonable thinking… It becomes all un-natural, irrational." But you have a problem with the Christian view of God’s power and might and His ability to be incarnated to a human being? You have a problem with Jesus being God? Talk about double-standards.

"Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel.” - Isaiah 7:14

*“For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And He will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.” - *Isaiah 9:6
*“On coming to the house, they saw the child with his mother Mary, and they bowed down and worshiped him.” - *Matthew 2:11

*“And when they climbed into the boat, the wind died down. Then those who were in the boat worshiped him, saying, ‘Truly you are the Son of God.’” - *Matthew 14:32-33

This is equivalent of what Muslims do to Christians for believing in the One True God:
***“‘I and the Father are one.’ Again the Jews picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus said to them, ‘I have shown you many great miracles from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?’ ‘***We are not stoning you for any of these,’ replied the Jews, ‘but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.’” - John 10:30-33

What miracles did Mohammad perform?

 

[Malgosia]

** It is necessary to read the bible even though there have been lot of changes in it. The reason is, we must know what has been going on and some one has to warn you and inform you about it. Whether you believe us or not, it does not matter. **

Actually, not only you do not have a proof of “lots of changes” in our scripture, that you claim, even history disproves it.

Before printing was invented, everything had to be copied by hand. If the littlest mistake was made during copying THE WHOLE PARCHMENT HAD TO BE DESTROYED. It had to be copied again, and if a mstake was made, the process of destruction was repeated. This preserved the scriptures from corruption. This can be found in secular historical accounts.

Judaism and Christianity spread all over the world. The oldest Jewish settlement was actually found in India. Christians spread all over the world, too. The scriptures from around the world are THE SAME. The oldest suriving fragment of parchment of NT dates to the first century.

Do you claim that Christians from all over the world made the same changes to their scriptures That is absolutely impossible.

It would be probable only if these religions were localized in one region of the world. But they were not, and to assume that multiple groups of people, without being able to communicate made identical mistakes is utter nonsense.

It is our sacred duty and we are doing it humbly

Yes, you humbly do the sacred duty so you can go on forums like that and “prove” Christianity wrong.

If you noticed, you have not proven the corruption of our scriptures at all.

Someone had to warn you and inform you about the unproven claims of your scripture. It does not matter to us if you believe us or not.

 

[Isa_Almisry]

5: 73-75: They surely disbelieve who say: Lo! Allah is the third of three; when there is no God save the One God. If they desist not from so saying a painful doom will fall on those of them who disbelieve. Will they not rather turn unto Allah and seek forgiveness of Him? For Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. The Messiah, son of Mary, was no other than a messenger, messengers (the like of whom) had passed away before him. And his mother was a saintly woman. And they both used to eat (earthly) food. See how we make the revelations clear for them, and see how they are turned away!

Surah 4:171: Believe, then, in God and His apostles, and do not say, “[God is] a trinity”. Desist [from this assertion] for your own good. God is but One God; utterly remote is He, in His glory, from having a son: unto Him belongs all that is in the heavens and all that is on earth; and none is as worthy of trust as God.

Now, how do you respond to the Qu’ranic charge that you, as a Jew, believe Ezra to have been the son of god?

As the prophets inJesus and Angeolos have shown, aaronyo is not Jewish, but a muslim sock puppet.

So I look forward to Aaronjo’s answer.

 

[Isa_Almisry]

Angelos,
I have a feeling your questions will go unanswered, yet again.

Oh no, it is answered.

Qui tacit consentit.

 

[Isa_Almisry]

Your pagan prophet also contends that Christians take their monks and priests as Lords beside Allah. However, Issa in the Koran forgets to denounce this and supposedly condemns Christians only for worshipping His mother and Him beside Allah. LOL

Many verses in the Koran clearly show that your pagan prophet’s scribes misunderstood the Christian Trinity or deliberately misrepresented it.

First, Surah 5 introduces the number of Christian deities as three and names them Allah, Maryam, and Issa. Why three if the Koran does not refer to the Trinity in this context?

Second, the following verses in the Koran criticise the Trinitarian doctrine by contending that Issa was considered the THIRD of the THREE:

Surah 5:73-75

They surely disbelieve who say: Lo! Allah is the third of three; when there is no God save the One God. If they desist not from so saying a painful doom will fall on those of them who disbelieve. Will they not rather turn unto Allah and seek forgiveness of Him ? For Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. The Messiah, son of Mary, was no other than a messenger, messengers (the like of whom) had passed away before him. And his mother was a saintly woman. And they both used to eat (earthly) food. See how We make the revelations clear for them, and see how they are turned away!

Who is the second person of the Christian Trinity if the third one is Issa? Why do the authors of the Koran always insert Mary’s name next to that of Issa’s whenever they supposedly refer to the Christian trinity?

Finally, why doesn’t the Koran criticise Christians for worshipping the Holy Spirit beside Allah? Why does it not clearly state that the Holy Spirit is angel Gabriel and that Christians mistakenly worship angel Gabriel in God’s place?

There you go again.

Confusing them with the facts.

 

[Isa_Almisry]

Hi Angelos,

There is a Fatwa #3920 dated 01-06-1999, where the Islamic cleric claims the following reasons:

1. Not all Jews have said that Ezra is the son of God, and even if one group said that in the past, the whole Jews should be blamed for that.
2. Who said that were the Jews in the past and they already passed away.

islamweb.net/ver2/Fatwa/ShowFatwa.php?Option=FatwaId&lang=A&Id=3920

However, there are many things in Quran that contradict itself, yet you would always find non logical answer from our Islamic clerics.

The problem is that the Quran itsefl sets up a parrallism with the Christian belief in the Son of God. Even if it were a small sect that has passed away, the parrallalism that remains is still an error.

 

[Isa_Almisry]

I know I am a tough teacher asking tough questions on an exam. Muslims will definitely fail my test if they do not study well

They have an even tougher Teacher with a tougher Final Exam, failure of which has burning consequences. They had better study now.

 

[Isa_Almisry]

And this answer has itself been answered already. The Bible likewise does not contain the word “trinity”, but that does not mean that it does not contain teachings on the concept.

I like this point.

The Quran contains incorrect teachings about the nature of the Trinity. Period.

Ditto.

 

[inJESUS]

Do you claim that Christians from all over the world made the same changes to their scriptures That is absolutely impossible.

It would be probable only if these religions were localized in one region of the world. But they were not, and to assume that multiple groups of people, without being able to communicate made identical mistakes is utter nonsense.:

yet another tough argument. Muslims give the impression that they think Christianity, like Islam, existed in one country and among certain numbers of people who spoke one language and who corrupted everything for an unknown reason…and maybe this applies to Jews who corrupted things that will later support Christianity…rarely do they know that historically and geographically it was impossible to corrupt the teachings of the apostles but again you cannot expect them to know this if history is not something that interest them…if they knew a bit, they wouldn’t even ask us who authored the gospels…fortunately we are people who read and learn history, unlike Muslims who do not search history to learn that the crucifixion of Jesus is a gnostic teaching for example that has nothing to do with God.