Muslim converts to Christianity

[dzheremi]

Please understand, Muslim Woman, that saying something is not literally true does not mean it is an error. When I went through RCIA, the very first thing they told us about Genesis is that it is an allegory. This is to be expected from Catholics, as we are not Biblical literalists as some other Christian communities are. As an allegory, it is outside not only the realm of science (because the Bible is not a science book), but also the categories of “true” and “false”.

 

[Isa_Almisry]

Salaam/peace;

U mean the clerics who don’t believe in the Virgin birth or those who told Christians there is errror in bible ?

Why shouldn’t we chastise both?

Those missionaries who try to convert Muslims , I wonder if they tell these things to them.

Could be why they are only trying to convert them, rather than converting them.

 

[planten]

But Planten, Jesus himself said “I and the Father are ONE”. Certainly Muslims do not believe that Jesus is one with the Father, so while you may not abuse Jesus, you do deny what He Himself said regarding His own divinity. This is done because Muhammad says to do so.

I am glad that Muslims love Jesus. Really, I think that is great. And of course, there is EVERYTHING to love about Him! But please understand that when Christians say that Muhammad or his followers deny Jesus, it is because from our viewpoint you do, just like it is your viewpoint as a Muslim that we are polytheists because we worship “three Gods” (Muhammad’s misunderstanding of the Christian Trinity).

**Please dzheremi, try to understand jesus used to talk in parables. Do not make it the real talk. We Muslims understand and believe that jesus and father are one. That is right. But what does it mean? It does not mean what the christians are trying to derive out of it,

I do not want to annoy any christian but it only means that jesus is very dear to God. He is in touch with God. He is one with God. He and and God are in agreement. There is no disparity. That is all. As we say to soem one :“God be with you”. Similarly, Jesus said that God was with him and he was with God.

I do not have to accuse the christians about polytheism. The problem is there. You have some one beside God whom you call God, that is Jesus and the Holy spirit. Only you can understand this complication (complicated formula).

I have personally heard from the capable christians on the net that Trinity was inexplainable. We do not have to say anything to you… You people are using some words in special sense such as the son of God (is real or symbolic, nobody tells). Then there is a problem of begotten son. The word begotten is used in abnormal sense against the usage in mathew chapter one.

We Muslims are not against the christians. We are not inventing any trouble for them. They have the troubles with them. I beg pardon if I intentionally creat any problem. But some time when some one abuses the prophet then I also rebutt with a simialr accusation from the bible.**

 

[planten]

Then you didn’t know that.


Islam teaches that Satan whispers, not shouts, into the breast of man, no?

**I knew that Jesus is called Masiha in the quran.

Ya Isa, what is the meaning of the last sentence that you wrote? Does that hurt Jesus or it is about Jesus?. Not at all. I feel that is irrelevant. Otherwise, all is well. Thanks**.

 

[Angelos]

beautiful304 wrote:
Muslims have a different view from yours. I can say what you said later on…where does it say in the Qur’an that Mary is in the Trinity? It’s your interpretation of that verse. People have idols in their lives. Does that mean those idols are part of a Trinity? No. They are idols apart from God.

The Koran counts Mary as the second person after Jesus worshipped by Christians beside Allah. The Surah 5 also claims that Jesus will condemn Christians for taking Him and His mother as two gods beside Allah on the last day. The presumption that Jesus will condemn Christians for what the writers of the Koran assert them to believe makes no sense to me. Criticising the members of a religion for how you view and interpret a certain tenet of theirs rather than for what they actually believe is neither fair nor ethical.

If Muslims want their arguments and critique to be valid, they must keep faithful to how Christians believe about the Trinity. If your theory were true, the Koran would have claimed that Christians did not have a Trinity, but an army of gods/idols. Nevertheless, the Koran accurately presents what Christians believe about God (the Trinity), but fails to do the same thing while referring to the persons of the Trinity. As I previously stated, a Koran verse teaches that Christians consider Jesus the THIRD person of the Trinity. Who is the second person then???

Besides, your analogy about the idols is a fallacious one since the Koran never talks about the other supposed idols Christians worship. Likewise, the Koran never says the Holy Spirit is an idol worshipped by Christians. Why?

beautiful304 wrote:
It doesn’t say specifically Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. My personal opinion: I believe it doesn’t because people at that time knew what the Trinity was. I understand that you don’t believe this.

We are not here to debate your personal opininons, but the verses of the Islamic scripture about basic Christian tenets.

Your theory is very weak since the Koran recurrently says Christians worship Jesus as God and that they call Him the Son of God, which are basic doctrines of Christology. Why does the Koran repeat these tenets if everyone knows them already? Why is the accurate critique of the genuine Christian Trinity is mysteriously missing from the Koran?

 

[planten]

Please understand, Muslim Woman, that saying something is not literally true does not mean it is an error. When I went through RCIA, the very first thing they told us about Genesis is that it is an allegory. This is to be expected from Catholics, as we are not Biblical literalists as some other Christian communities are. As an allegory, it is outside not only the realm of science (because the Bible is not a science book), but also the categories of “true” and “false”.

So we forget about Genesis? It could then be story book for the children? Like Alice in Wonderland? Please expalin in easy terms what you mean and what you understand the Genesis to be?

 

[Angelos]

So we forget about Genesis? It could then be story book for the children? Like Alice in Wonderland? Please expalin in easy terms what you mean and what you understand the Genesis to be?

If you do not understand what dzheremi means, I suggest you start taking English lessons

 

[dzheremi]

Please dzheremi, try to understand jesus used to talk in parables. Do not make it the real talk.

Why not? He said it. He really said it. It is the most real of real talk.

We Muslims understand and believe that jesus and father are one. That is right. But what does it mean? It does not mean what the christians are trying to derive out of it,

Ooo…I’m tempted not to even touch this one, out a spirit of amity towards you, since you seem sincere. It is sufficient to say, I think, that Muslims actually cannot cause us any sort of theological “trouble”, since they at least don’t claim to be Christians, so their understanding of what we believe is understandably very lacking. Also I should say that abuse of your prophet is not equivalent with rejection of Jesus’ divinity for what I hope are obvious reasons (Muhammad never claimed to be divine, some Muslims just treat him that way).

Regarding your question about Genesis, I will refer you to this link that presents the Catholic position regarding the truth of the Creation story in Genesis. This position is at variance with the fundamentalist Protestant position of Biblical literalism, so I don’t exactly understand why it is any concern of yours as a Muslim. Should I assume then that you are a Quranic literalist? I know you seem to have some trouble with Hadith, but I don’t really know how that works, so maybe it’s possible to literally believe one book and not the others…in which case, feel free to present your own religion however you’d like, but please do not attempt to make me present mine as you’d like to see it.

 

[Silouan]

**

I have personally heard from the capable christians on the net that Trinity was inexplainable. We do not have to say anything to you… You people are using some words in special sense such as the son of God (is real or symbolic, nobody tells). Then there is a problem of begotten son. The word begotten is used in abnormal sense against the usage in mathew chapter one.

**

Trinity is considered a mystery, the complete reality of it is incomprehendible. It doesn’t mean you can’t understand certain aspects of it. And it doesn’t mean that certain aspect can’t be explained. What it does mean, because it is a mystery, certain aspects of it my not be easy to explain or understand, and that the complete reality of it, is beyond human comprehension.

This is true with the Allah in the Quran as well.

I know you are NOT Sunni, but Sunnis believe, **“Imagination cannot attain Him; comprehensions cannot perceive Him,” **(Aqidah Tahawi)

Imam Abu Ishaq al Isfarayini remarked, "God is other than any concept that comes to mind."

And this belief of the Sunnis is confirmed in the Quran.

**“They comprehend Him not in knowledge” **(20:110)

**“Glory be to God above and beyond their descriptions” **(6:100)

**“They do not asess the capacity of God truly.” **(6:91)

One a very basic level a Muslim will say they understand God, and one a very basic level a Christian will say they understand Trinity. But when you delve deeply into theology both in Islam and Christianity, one will end up saying God is beyond our comprehension.

Because Trinity is a mystery, it is not something we as Christian feel that we are at liberty to debate. We can merely try to explain what we understand about it (it does not mean you will understand it), and give you the means to acquire this understanding of Trinity, that the simpliest of believer claims understanding yet unable to clearly explain.

In Christ,

Silouan

 

[dolphinlove]

** Muhammad did not deny jesus. If Christ means Masiha then it is good. The Muslims believe that Jesus was the Masiha but the Jews did not recognise him,just as they did not recognise John the baptist. There is plenty of material on both Jesus and John in chapter 3 and 19 of the Quran.

So Muhammad admitted that Jesus was the Masiha. Muhammad is not the anti-christ. The anti-christ will openly abuse Jesus. That is not the case in Islam.**

What rot,
He denies who Jesus really is! Cant you see that?
Jesus and the Father are ONE, Muhammad DENIES DENIES DENIES this!

 

[dolphinlove]

** We Muslims understand and believe that jesus and father are one. That is right. **

oh this is priceless, you are good at really twisting things around to your beliefs planten

 

[Isa_Almisry]

Please dzheremi, try to understand jesus used to talk in parables. Do not make it the real talk. We Muslims understand and believe that jesus and father are one. That is right. But what does it mean? It does not mean what the christians are trying to derive out of it,
As I posted:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=4138417&highlight=Jews#post4138417
the Jews understood what Christ meant, and He meant what the Christians still teach.

I do not want to annoy any christian but it only means that jesus is very dear to God. He is in touch with God. He is one with God. He and and God are in agreement. There is no disparity. That is all. As we say to soem one :“God be with you”. Similarly, Jesus said that God was with him and he was with God.

An eye for an eye.

 

[Isa_Almisry]

I knew that Jesus is called Masiha in the quran.
Didn’t even know that means Christ in Arabic?

Ya Isa, what is the meaning of the last sentence that you wrote? Does that hurt Jesus or it is about Jesus?. Not at all. I feel that is irrelevant. Otherwise, all is well. Thanks

It is about the spirit of anti-christ which trys to damn Christ with faint praise, not by openly abusing Him, but the case of whispering the denial of His divinity into the hearts of men.

 

[Angelos]

oh this is priceless, you are good at really twisting things around to your beliefs planten

The funnier thing is dear planten seems to have forgotten that there is no Father in his scripture. Since the Koran denies that God is the Father, it is impossible for Muslims and planten to interpret Jesus’ statement (The Father and I are one) in one way or another.

 

[dolphinlove]

The funnier thing is dear planten seems to have forgotten that there is no Father in his scripture. Since the Koran denies that God is the Father, it is impossible for Muslims and planten to interpret Jesus’ statement (The Father and I are one) in one way or another.

Oh yes i know, i cant wait to see the response to this one…

 

[Lapell]

You cannot dismiss what M W has written, just like that. She has only presented the data. That is not her own. The best you could do would be to refute that data or prove that she quoted something wrong.
But if it is all there then it is better to face it for the purpose of the matter under discission. Thanks.

Well, MW was making those data hers, just as you seem to make them yours. And so what I said to her also applies to you, Planten. Since you are discussing against what Jesus Christ Himself teaches through His Church, I think I am in a position to say it. In your case, I told you a number of times before.
If someone says something against what the Qur’an teaches, can’t you demonstrate how wrong that person could be without having to defame our Faith. Unless defaming someone else’s faith is O.K. in Islam? and then I would have to dismiss all Muslim because to them defaming my faith would be O.K. … But according to some of you, it’s bad according to Islam to do so…
I am sure you can bring a better argument than that without having to resort to defaming our faith, hmm?

 

[Lapell]

Sorry I am giving this reply only now, I was unable to have access to the computer yesterday and before tonight (Atlantic Time)…
I enjoyed your comment on Planten’s reply to me, Isa Almisry! Thanks!

 

[Lapell]

I normally would have used the computer at the shelter, but it has not been working for nearly 2 weeks now! Fortunately there are a few computers available at the Public Library here. But then I can come much less often… But today, here I am!

 

[planten]

As I posted:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=4138417&highlight=Jews#post4138417
the Jews understood what Christ meant, and He meant what the Christians still teach.

But did Jesus ever say that he was God? Never even once.

It is no use joining meaningless sentences to create the greatest sin of polytheism (Shirk). Because he was the word and word was with god and word was god. What a round about way of saying things!. And only John knew it. The other three writers (mathew, mark and luke) did not know it at all. Why?

So you have no problem with saying “and the Word was God?”
You weren’t there to hear what Christ said. As ALL of those who were say, He was saying He was God

.

I do not have to say that word was God. Why I should make the word as God? Why not I should say that bird was God? The saying “Word was with God” and “Word was God”, how could it be. Something which was with God became God? How come?

Not too complicated:1X1X1=1.

It could be very complicated if you keep on adding others with God, such as 1+1+1+=3. And you cannot deny that because you say there is a father God, there is a son God, There is a Holy spirit that is god. That makes Three. And you have the word Trinity as a proof that the number three is there which is not shown in your equation e.g. 1x1x1=1. Where is three in that?. But Trinity needs three to be there.

As the Fathers say, a comprehened God cannot be God. Or do you know Him as He knows Himself? Finite man, you have contained the infinite God?

To put it in Islamic terms, the Trinity is part of the ghayb.

**That has no meaning. man cannot comprehend God. Okay. may be so. There is no problem. But it is necessary by the old law (OT) and the latest covenant (Quran) that mankind remain away from mutiple gods… **.

As the citations above show
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=4138417&highlight=Jews#post4138417
the Jews knew.
the Christians, starting with the Apostles knew, and know.
Even your Quran and prophet know. Why don’t you?

I cannot understand what you mean about our prophet knew. He knew that you were preaching three gods. That is mentioned in the Quran.

Explain.

Just look at the situation of the Christians in the Muslim world. Not you personally

.
**What I should explain? If you stop abusing the prophet of Islam and do not say that he was visited by the devil and that he was a false prophet (because Muslims do not say Jesus was a false prophet. Muslims do not abuse or hate Jesus and his mother.) then you could be on equal footing. Nobody would hurt.You preach your religion and do not say anything bad about Quran. You can preach your Trinity too peacefully, no harm. But things get out of hand when any one starts the abuse. I do not like any harassment of the christians in Muslim countries.

Remember that there is a law in Britian that nobody can abuse or ridicule Jesus (only). That is a cover for Jesus only and for nobody else. Is that justified? And no respect or cover for any one else? Let us leave this topic please.**

An eye for an eye.

That is not for you. An eye for eye is very good. But you have disowned that law. So please, as a christian, do not preach that any more. We Muslims support it fully. Thanks.

 

[planten]

Didn’t even know that means Christ in Arabic?

It is about the spirit of anti-christ which trys to damn Christ with faint praise, not by openly abusing Him, but the case of whispering the denial of His divinity into the hearts of men.

**No you are wrong about anti-christ. Anti-christ will not be whispering. He will be openly preaching things contrary to the beliefs of Jesus. We Muslims are not preaching anything about Jesus.We do have the belief bout Jesus but we do not preach that. We have our ownfaith and other good thinsg to preach.

But it is the church whois preaching things about Jesus. So they better see the material they have got is genuine R_not. It is not genuine. So who is anti-christ?**