Muslim who needs answers???

[sedonaman]

Why does it seem like you are, purposely, confusing the discussion???

Because Muslim logic is not the same as Western logic. As I explained in a prior post, Muslim logic is dualistic, meaning two contradictory statements can both be true. Western logic is unitary, meaning if two statements contradict each other, at least one is false. That’s why debates with Muslims go nowhere. The same goes for political diplomacy. In fact, you will know less after a debate with one of them, not more.

 

[eichenb2]

Because Muslim logic is not the same as Western logic. As I explained in a prior post, Muslim logic is dualistic, meaning two contradictory statements can both be true. Western logic is unitary, meaning if two statements contradict each other, at least one is false. That’s why debates with Muslims go nowhere. The same goes for political diplomacy. In fact, you will know less after a debate with one of them, not more.

I think you are reading into it too much. However, just for the sake of argument, I can prove you’re wrong. God is One. God is a Trinity. These are two apparently contradictory statements. Muslims have a huge problem with these statements being harmonized. Christians actually believe there is harmony between these statements. Please give an example of two contradictory statements that Muslims believe are both true and Christians believe only one is true.
By the way, most of the Muslims in this forum are western converts to Islam. This is only my opinion, but I am speaking as a former Muslim. I can tell by the posts to this forum. Western converts usually present an Islam that is idealogical compatible with their western upbringing. Most of them, including myself, see the error of their ways and quit practicing Islam. Out of five families of converts that I knew, only 1 family still practices it. Trying to raise obscure philosophical questions about Islamic philosophy is also convoluting the discussion.

 

[R_not]

** anjoh66, There is no problem. The soul converted to Islam is safe in this world and the next life too. That is a contented soul. Allah is pleased with him/her and he/she is pleased and in comfort with Allah.

The christians have no religion. First their bibleNt is no more the actual teachings of Jesus. Secondly it is not being practiced. The majority of the so called christians are only in name sake christians i.e. to increase their number to two billion. Otherwise most of them are either atheists or non-practcing christians.

The problem of a any asked question: The christians should not ask any malafide question if a similar thing is reported in their own bibleNT/bibleOT. It becomes unjust to ask us a question when a similar thing is reported in their own books.**

In your first statement that is not entirely true. islam teaches predestination. So, you are not necessarily saved if you are a muslim - why all the celebrating when a jihadist dies and the family then can be assured of reaching heaven as one of their 70 to be saved to allah? I suppose this bypasses predestination. Basically, the whole thing is a confusing mess. mohammed said to do ‘good works’ to get to your orgy in heaven, but even then - how many ‘good works’, or do those good works bypass predestination - no one knows so having their children blow themselves up trying to kill people seems to be a solid thing in islam.

Walid Shoebat Shoebat’s experiences with what he was taught in islam.. Select the program that says, Talking It Over, PART 1 December 13, 2008.

to your second and third paragraphs it seems you are ‘sour grapes’. You don’t like it when we know your koran. In 1400 years muslims have successfully silenced anyone from questioning the koran and we are doing just that on these threads. Previously when a non-muslim did such a thing there were, and still are in muslim countries, dire consequences. Even muslims are not supposed to question.

We are in a unique and great time period where we have the tools to do so now. I say all of us Christians, Jews, Hindus, Buddhists, etc should ALL question it like never before and scream to the world what islam is all about!!! kpeople:

 

[R_not]

I hope Planten does have the integrity to acknowledge this fact. According to Maliki school of law, rape is a type of Zina (Adultery or Fornication). Zina proven by 3 means.

1. Confession made once unless it is withdrawn in any form whatsoever (mutlaqan) or (the convict) runs away (after confessing) even if during punishment
2. Testimony (of four witnesses to the act). The hadd will not be set aside (even) if four women testify to the woman’s virginity (after the fact)
3. Pregnancy in an unmarried woman, or a slave woman whose owner does not affirm (having had intercourse with her.) No claim of rape (made by her) is to be accepted without corroborating proof!" (See Minahul Jaleel, Sharh 'ala Mukhtasar Sidi Khaleel by Shaykh Muhammad 'Ulaysh, Vol 9, pp 255-9)

---

Basically, the baby in the womb of the woman who was raped is seen a proof that Zina took place. The rapists, on the other hand, would be asked (under oath) if they did this. If they swear under oath, that they did not rape the woman, and no other witness can graphically support the women’s story, then she is punished and the rapists are freed. Islamic Law would allow her to have and nurse her baby and if she came back…stone her to death. Muslims so frequently say that honor Mary and believe the Virgen Birth. Thank God that The Blessed Virgen Mother was not raised under Muhammad’s rule. Muslims would have stoned her

eichenb2, I really learn a lot from your posts - THANKS!!

I do believe though that during the years that Mary lived she would have indeed been stoned too. Or killed in some way. Joseph had an angel appear to him to tell him that she was with child and it was conceived by the Holy Spirit. So, he was most blessed in that he was chosen to be the father of Jesus.

Even before he had the visit by the angel he was not the kind of man to kill her but was going to divorce her quietly.

Matthew 1:18-25

The Jews stopped that sort of thing so long ago that I cannot find when they did. And Jesus stopped a stoning of a woman while mohammed encouraged them. I do believe that God wanted stoning, or killing, of women for those types of sins stopped or else Jesus would not have stopped one Himself.

 

[R_not]

Here is the bit about predestination that I found:

One theological point that is totally different from the Jews and Christians is predestination. This concept takes away free will.

• prior to the birth of each Muslim, Allah and an angel confer on the outcome of whether that soul will end up in heaven or in the hell-fire. The second view of eternal destiny taught within Islam is that Muslims are able to gain paradise by being faithful to Muhammad, not straying from the path of Islam, and living a life of good works. Of course no one tells a muslim whether or not they have achieved enough good works.

• if God has already assigned us to heaven or hell - why send all the prophets to accept Him if they were not going to be going to heaven anyway? The God of Israel is not a liar and invites all of us to heaven.

• “The Lord is not slack concerning His Promise, as some men count slackness, but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.” (2Pt:3:9)
• “They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.” (Mk:2:17)

This is another reason why mohammed was not a prophet. He changed the messages from the original prophets, and Jesus.

 

[paarsurrey]

That seems to be a worldwide muslim retoric, here they do the same, **we got a converted woman who defends islam with all her power, even to the extent **that she is acctually doing a better job to make people hate islam than 10 bin ladins could ever do.

Hi

Well , what does she do exactly? That interest me.

Thanks

 

[abucs]

I think you are reading into it too much. However, just for the sake of argument, I can prove you’re wrong. God is One. God is a Trinity. These are two apparently contradictory statements. Muslims have a huge problem with these statements being harmonized. Christians actually believe there is harmony between these statements.

Yes, i thought this too when i read the original sentence.
I think we have to remember that logic is based on a set of assumptions and people have different assumptions.

For example if i assume that physical matter and laws is all there is in this to reality then any talk of God is completely logically inconsistant. Only because of my initial assumptions.

If i think God is like me and the physical universe is the basis for reality then it is contradictory to think God can be in two places at once or that he can be ‘apparently’ divided and therefore he cannot be encountered as a man.

The thing i can’t get past with Muslims is that the rock solid bottom line in that Muslims don’t seem even open to the possibility that the Koran might have even one thing in it which is not a direct directive of God.

I can only assume that the basis of Islam is a God given infallible book and that any idea of proving this true topples the underlying basis of Islam as truth - so it cannot even be openly questioned.

Would you agree or disagree eichenb2 with this last thought ?

 

[paarsurrey]

The thing i can’t get past with Muslims is that the rock solid bottom line in that Muslims don’t seem even open to the possibility that the Koran might have even one thing in it which is not a direct directive of God.

I can only assume that the basis of Islam is a God given infallible book and that any idea of proving this true topples the underlying basis of Islam as truth - so it cannot even be openly questioned.

Would you agree or disagree eichenb2 with this last thought ?

Hi

I agree with the contents mentioned above in your post.

I love Jesus and Mary as I do love Buddhan and Krishna

Thanks

 

[Muslim_Woman]

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

Salaam/ Peace

… we got a converted woman who defends islam with all her power, even to the extent that she is acctually doing a better job to make people hate islam than 10 bin ladins could ever do.

lol…what a funny accusation . Anyway , even if it’s true , she will be rewarded on the last day as her intention is to invite people to the Truth

 

[sedonaman]

Please give an example of two contradictory statements that Muslims believe are both true and Christians believe only one is true.

Easy. [Although you must remember, I did not say “Christian logic;” I indicated “Western logic”.]

Do you have to know Arabic to become a Muslim? Not according to this islamic-world.net/invitation.php?ArtID=338 website. All that is required is to submit to Allah and memorize a few prayers in the Qur’an. But, to submit to Allah, it is necessary to know his will, and where do you find it but in the Qur’an? “Learning Arabic will be an advantage as there is a big difference between reading the translations of the Qur’an and the original text in Arabic,” the site continues. A Muslim told me that an Islamic scholar would explain it to me. OK. In what language will he explain it? He would have to use Arabic because, according to the same Muslim, “Only Arabic can convey the true meanings and translations of the meaning have lost total understanding of the verses.” Without knowing Arabic, I wouldn’t understand what the scholar was saying or what to believe; but according to them, I would be a “believer” nevertheless. How can you believe dogma you don’t understand?

But the most egregious contradiction is the claim that Islam is a “religion of peace”, when one considers what Thomas Jefferson John Adams heard when they went to see Tripoli’s ambassador to London in March 1785 to inquired by what right the Barbary states preyed upon American shipping, enslaving both crews and passengers. America’s two foremost envoys were informed that, “It was written in the Koran, that all nations who should not have acknowledged their [Muslims’] authority were sinners, that it was their right and duty to make war upon whoever they could find and to make slaves of all they could take as prisoners, and that every Mussulman [as Muslims were called then] who should be slain in battle was sure to go to Paradise.” [It is worth noting that the United States played no part in the Crusades, nor in the Catholic reconquista of Andalusia; nor did the state of Israel exist at the time. The US was merely minding its own business.]

Does a “religion of peace” claim it is alright to impose Jim Crow-like treatment on those of other faiths, including a crushing tax? Does a “religion of peace” claim it is alright to re-commence a war against the conquered who cannot pay the tax? [Sidebar: This is why Muslim lands are barren. They drive out the most productive people, forcing Muslims to conquer more territory and peoples to get more booty.]

For a more complete list of contradictions see answering-islam.org/Quran/Contra . But of course, the Muslim can always claim these translations have “lost total understanding” and/or been “taken out of context.”
[Another sidebar: A favorite response of Muslims when trying to explain an embarrassing verse is to invoke the “taken-out-of-context” excuse. I say “excuse” because when you probe deeper by analyzing the words preceding or following (the definition of “context”) the verse in question, you find there is no relationship because the Qur’an is not arranged chronologically but in order of size, the longest first. So much for “context”.]

I don’t think that listening to what Muslims say and contrasting it with what they do, with the approval of their Islamic leadership, is engaging in “obscure philosophical questions” about Islamic philosophy nor "convoluting the discussion.” That charge is just so much more chaff thrown up to cloud the issues.

I know what you are thinking. You are thinking of the tu quoque argument in response to charges that Islam is not peaceful, i.e., “There is violence in the Bible too.” This is a fallacy, a faux argument, because if one commits a crime, it does not follow that it is OK for others to do the same. Then there is the reality: Christians waging aggressive warfare do so contrary to Christ’s teachings; Muslims waging aggressive warfare do so in imitation of Mohammad’s “perfect” example.

My inescapable conclusion is that Islam is a Mafia with a manual.

 

[sedonaman]

abucs:
A major point. I agree with what you are trying to say, but do not confuse God with Allah; they are different and not interchangeable, even though 3.3 billion people claim they are the same. Muslims do this to disarm good-willed Christians. Please do not accommodate them.

 

[Darryl1958]

Does their “nuance” include putting the Crusades in context? The pope apologized [unjustifiably IMHO] for the Crusades, which spanned a few hundred years. Has any Islamic leader apologized for 1,400 years of jihad? No. And why not? Because for Islam there is no compromise.

Did the pope apologize for the Crusades, or for the crimes and barbaric excesses committed by Christians during the Crusades?

If he apologized for the popes who actually called for the Crusades, I would agree that his apology was unjustifiable. The Crusades were a legitimate response on behalf of a Christendom reasserting itself as a force within the world, imho.

However, the war crimes and the excesses that occurred during these times were often un-Christ-like, and therefore an apology is a recognition of, and a repentance from, sins of our brothers in Christ. Pope John Paul, by apologizing for these sins, actually brings us a collective absolution through both his role as a priest, and as Vicar of Christ. He allays us of any further feelings of guilt for all that went wrong during these campaigns of our fellow Christians.

Unlike so many Muslims, who carry the weight of millenia of barbarity of jihad on the soldiers like an unyoke-able cross, our loads have been lightened through the absolution that comes from repentance. Defending the indefensible is the heaviest weight of all. It is crushing the spirit of so many Muslims now even as we speak. Note at least two Muslims here who are severely questioning their continued allegiance to a religious system that is so seemingly incapable of extracting itself from the cruelties and primitive barbarities inherent to that system. Others engage in forms of apologetics in which they contradict each other, and the ugly truths that just keep popping up faster than they can hammer them back down contradict their arguments.

Still it is important to discern whether Pope John Paul II was actually apologizing for the Crusades themselves, or for the injustices perpetuated on non-Christians through the semi-barbaric christian armies that waged them.

Personally, I do not understand JPII as condemning the Crusades themselves, but merely building bridges of peace by acknowledging that many un-Christ-like sins were committed by Christians during this age.

 

[R_not]

http://theislampath.com/smf/Smileys/default/salam.gif

Salaam/ Peace

lol…what a funny accusation . Anyway , even if it’s true , she will be rewarded on the last day as her intention is to invite people to the Truth

how so? If she is married she gets to sit back and watch him rape a bunch of virgins - including boys. Nothing is in it for her. And how do you know if she will even get to heaven even if she has nothing to look forward to it when she gets there? You guys believe in predestination and she might be headed for hell. You don’t know.

Even the ‘good works’ that are recommended for muslims to do that doesn’t bypass predestination - or if it does, it doesn’t tell you how many, or what kinds, of good works to do? Do good works including deception? I guess that might be a silly question since mohammed redefined sin with deceiving us being a part of it.

Sorry, but being rewarded for deceiving us and defending such a religion as yours is questionable.

 

[R_not]

Did the pope apologize for the Crusades, or for the crimes and barbaric excesses committed by Christians during the Crusades?

If he apologized for the popes who actually called for the Crusades, I would agree that his apology was unjustifiable. The Crusades were a legitimate response on behalf of a Christendom reasserting itself as a force within the world, imho.

However, the war crimes and the excesses that occurred during these times were often un-Christ-like, and therefore an apology is a recognition of, and a repentance from, sins of our brothers in Christ. Pope John Paul, by apologizing for these sins, actually brings us a collective absolution through both his role as a priest, and as Vicar of Christ. He allays us of any further feelings of guilt for all that went wrong during these campaigns of our fellow Christians.

Unlike so many Muslims, who carry the weight of millenia of barbarity of jihad on the soldiers like an unyoke-able cross, our loads have been lightened through the absolution that comes from repentance. Defending the indefensible is the heaviest weight of all. It is crushing the spirit of so many Muslims now even as we speak. Note at least two Muslims here who are severely questioning their continued allegiance to a religious system that is so seemingly incapable of extracting itself from the cruelties and primitive barbarities inherent to that system. Others engage in forms of apologetics in which they contradict each other, and the ugly truths that just keep popping up faster than they can hammer them back down contradict their arguments.

Still it is important to discern whether Pope John Paul II was actually apologizing for the Crusades themselves, or for the injustices perpetuated on non-Christians through the semi-barbaric christian armies that waged them.

Personally, I do not understand JPII as condemning the Crusades themselves, but merely building bridges of peace by acknowledging that many un-Christ-like sins were committed by Christians during this age.

yeah, I agree. The Crusades were justified in and of themselves. And to tell you the truth we put our morals on a time and people that we should not be doing such a thing. They did what they had to do to stop the barbarity of the muslim hordes who were torturing and murdering so many, subjugating others while humiliating them and burning Churches, Temples, etc.

If a few Crusaders got out of hand, do we really know if they just became like the ones they were fighting? And even with that in mind, the numbers of people the jihads killed far outweighed the numbers that the Crusaders killed that we cannot possibly condemn all the Crusaders for doing what they felt was right AT THAT TIME.

And look what we have now? jihad still going on - and I am not talking that ‘inner struggle’ with NO apology for ANY OF THE JIHADS. Oh, a letter from CAIR here and there - those people that are tied to Hamas and unindicted co-conspirators. **The excuses, the revised histories from muslims, and the complete ignoring of the fact that they DO NOTHING TO STOP THE VIOLENT jihadists that they tell us ALL THE TIME distort islam. **

Just this week they have been defending the pals who have been lobbing bombs at unarmed civilians on a daily basis for who knows how long and are wailing and whining that they are the victims WHEN THEY ARE NOT!

 

[RamyG4c]

To the original Creator of this form Walid.
I found a great site in arabic which might answer some of your questions about Islam.
www.islameyat.com
If you happen to be in the Middle east and I assume you’re in Algerian, Tunisia or Morrocco you can tune in to a satellite channel called AlHAYAT on HotBird. It also has a lot of interesting answers and debates about Isalm.
Hope this helps.
As to the ongoing discussion in this forum, Islam is a primitive religion and it is based on false doctrine (both Christian and Jew). So it does have good teachings in it but I bet I can find them based on earlier teachings (which is something that Muslims don’t deny).

 

[eichenb2]

Yes, i thought this too when i read the original sentence.
I think we have to remember that logic is based on a set of assumptions and people have different assumptions.

For example if i assume that physical matter and laws is all there is in this to reality then any talk of God is completely logically inconsistant. Only because of my initial assumptions.

If i think God is like me and the physical universe is the basis for reality then it is contradictory to think God can be in two places at once or that he can be ‘apparently’ divided and therefore he cannot be encountered as a man.

The thing i can’t get past with Muslims is that the rock solid bottom line in that Muslims don’t seem even open to the possibility that the Koran might have even one thing in it which is not a direct directive of God.

I can only assume that the basis of Islam is a God given infallible book and that any idea of proving this true topples the underlying basis of Islam as truth - so it cannot even be openly questioned.

Would you agree or disagree eichenb2 with this last thought ?

I fully agree with this statement. One analogy that seems to hold water, from perspective, is between Christ and the Qur’an. Muslims tend to view the Qur’an in the same way that Christians view Christ. They believe that the Qur’an is the UNCREATED, ETERNAL word of God. Interestingly, this is a vulnerable point that Christians could target when debating with Muslims. If the Qur’an is UNCREATED and ETERNAL, is it One with God? If this is so, then Muslims have a Duality, similar to the Christian Trinity.

 

[R_not]

Easy. [Although you must remember, I did not say “Christian logic;” I indicated “Western logic”.]

Do you have to know Arabic to become a Muslim? Not according to this islamic-world.net/invitation.php?ArtID=338 website. All that is required is to submit to Allah and memorize a few prayers in the Qur’an. But, to submit to Allah, it is necessary to know his will, and where do you find it but in the Qur’an? “Learning Arabic will be an advantage as there is a big difference between reading the translations of the Qur’an and the original text in Arabic,” the site continues. A Muslim told me that an Islamic scholar would explain it to me. OK. In what language will he explain it? He would have to use Arabic because, according to the same Muslim, “Only Arabic can convey the true meanings and translations of the meaning have lost total understanding of the verses.” Without knowing Arabic, I wouldn’t understand what the scholar was saying or what to believe; but according to them, I would be a “believer” nevertheless. How can you believe dogma you don’t understand?

But the most egregious contradiction is the claim that Islam is a “religion of peace”, when one considers what Thomas Jefferson John Adams heard when they went to see Tripoli’s ambassador to London in March 1785 to inquired by what right the Barbary states preyed upon American shipping, enslaving both crews and passengers. America’s two foremost envoys were informed that, “It was written in the Koran, that all nations who should not have acknowledged their [Muslims’] authority were sinners, that it was their right and duty to make war upon whoever they could find and to make slaves of all they could take as prisoners, and that every Mussulman [as Muslims were called then] who should be slain in battle was sure to go to Paradise.” [It is worth noting that the United States played no part in the Crusades, nor in the Catholic reconquista of Andalusia; nor did the state of Israel exist at the time. The US was merely minding its own business.]

Does a “religion of peace” claim it is alright to impose Jim Crow-like treatment on those of other faiths, including a crushing tax? Does a “religion of peace” claim it is alright to re-commence a war against the conquered who cannot pay the tax? [Sidebar: This is why Muslim lands are barren. They drive out the most productive people, forcing Muslims to conquer more territory and peoples to get more booty.]

For a more complete list of contradictions see answering-islam.org/Quran/Contra . But of course, the Muslim can always claim these translations have “lost total understanding” and/or been “taken out of context.”
[Another sidebar: A favorite response of Muslims when trying to explain an embarrassing verse is to invoke the “taken-out-of-context” excuse. I say “excuse” because when you probe deeper by analyzing the words preceding or following (the definition of “context”) the verse in question, you find there is no relationship because the Qur’an is not arranged chronologically but in order of size, the longest first. So much for “context”.]

I don’t think that listening to what Muslims say and contrasting it with what they do, with the approval of their Islamic leadership, is engaging in “obscure philosophical questions” about Islamic philosophy nor "convoluting the discussion.” That charge is just so much more chaff thrown up to cloud the issues.

I know what you are thinking. You are thinking of the tu quoque argument in response to charges that Islam is not peaceful, i.e., “There is violence in the Bible too.” This is a fallacy, a faux argument, because if one commits a crime, it does not follow that it is OK for others to do the same. Then there is the reality: Christians waging aggressive warfare do so contrary to Christ’s teachings; Muslims waging aggressive warfare do so in imitation of Mohammad’s “perfect” example.

My inescapable conclusion is that Islam is a Mafia with a manual.

Except that the mafia didn’t just kill to kill because the other guy was not an Italian, or whatever race the mafia godfather was. And neither is the mafia imperialistic or mysoginists to the point that mohammed was, or muslims are now. Oh, they might not have that much respect for women since they don’t mind using them, but they like making money off the ones who are loose (prostitutes, dopers, etc)

They certainly infiltrated the police and local governments, or paid them off, so they would either be left alone or so they could get things easier.

It is more like a business out to make money - no matter what, or how.

There are similiarites though, yeah I got to agree about that, but some very important differences.

I think that islam is more like a fascism. Communism, Nazism being what they can be more compared to since they have the ‘either you are with me or you are against me’ type of attitude and they have no problem with slaughtering their own too. With the difference being there, the muslims will say they will go to allah.

 

[puppypatrol]

Ok for example if sb steals==>hi\her hand must be cut
if he\she kills==>his\her head
One timetheysay no body is obliged to be Muslim and after if sb leaves Islam he\she must be killed.
The fact that women have half the inheritance of men.
In case of an adultury need 4 witnesses and they shouldbe men which is nearly impossible and plus they have to see the act of sex, if you are no Muslim you burn in hell in the after life and nearly all Muslim theologists confirmed this, the hijab which is obligatory and is supposed to make women less attractive is not true since I am a man and I was very attractive physically many times to Muslim women wearing hijab and we were close friend for a long period .
In Islamic TV I heard from clerics saying many times that a Muslim is always 1,5 time more intelligent than non-muslim, I don’t know how did they calculate but it is very stupid.
In a court of law as witness/ 2 women = 1 man so logically a woman is twice inferior in trust .
Answer to these questions and I will bring you others and these are just brain storming
Be sure I have nothing against Islam or any other religion but I want to be convinced to have the peace of mind.

While I don’t know much about what is in the Qur’an but wanted to say welcome and I hope yu find the answers you are looking for. I have a feeling you will probably have lots of questions and the information will be more than you can possibly get here but this is an excellent place to start

Walid,

I don’t think you appear treacherous at all.
I witnessed to some Muslim men a few years ago. I think God placed a together so God could speak to at least one of them.
I believe God has placed in your heart a desire to seek Him as well.
This wonderful for the Scriptures say no one come to the Father except through Jesus and no one comes to Jesus unless the Father draws him near.
God is calling you near to Himself!
Why don’t we start with one issue at a time?
What is your first and most pressing question? Is it the Universe expansion?

Ginger

I have to agree with this. After all, both Christians and Muslims started with Father Abraham. We each have just taken different paths and we can always come together again.

 

[R_not]

While I don’t know much about what is in the Qur’an but wanted to say welcome and I hope yu find the answers you are looking for. I have a feeling you will probably have lots of questions and the information will be more than you can possibly get here but this is an excellent place to start

I have to agree with this. After all, both Christians and Muslims started with Father Abraham. We each have just taken different paths and we can always come together again.

With the jihads in the middle east since mohammed’s time many Jews and Christians (and others) were forced to become muslim (captured slaves and were raped and their children were thereafter muslim), or converted because life was ‘heck’ as a dhimmi (subjugated ones).

This is why I find that the option to be a subjugated by islam is not an option, and should not be for anyone, because we condemn our children and children’s children to it.

 

[puppypatrol]

With the jihads in the middle east since mohammed’s time many Jews and Christians (and others) were forced to become muslim (captured slaves and were raped and their children were thereafter muslim), or converted because life was ‘heck’ as a dhimmi (subjugated ones).

This is why I find that the option to be a subjugated by islam is not an option, and should not be for anyone, because we condemn our children and children’s children to it.

Not all Muslims are extremists. To say they are is like saying all Americans are rich, or all Blacks are ignorant, or all Catholics are drunks (have had someone use that one on me), or all Jews are the reason for a country’s problems (as in Hitler’s Germany) It is bigoted and ignorant to compartmentalize a complete race because of a few, no matter how many that “few” may be. It is not the Christian way and it is definitely not the Catholic way.