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drac16
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There’s always room. If Christianity is true, I hope God will guide me to it.
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drac16
Guest
I don’t believe that I need an authority beyond the Qur’an to dictate what to believe about the alleged crucifixion. The Qur’an is far more concerned about affirming Jesus’ humanity and rejecting any sort of Divine characteristics that have been associated with him. So, for me, the crucifixion is a rather minor point. A relevant point, to be sure, but not nearly as important as the point that he was merely a man.This is a fair response.
Let me just say, however, that if you are going to reject Christianity’s claim that Jesus died, rose again and ascended (under His own power), then there ought to be some basis for rejecting it other than “My parents said so” or “My religious teachers said so” or even “Because the Qur’an said so.”
Even a layman can objectively look at the historical evidence for these things and make a decision about them. I hope you will.
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arthra
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Jesus was martyred… His Spirit… ascended to God…as He prayed it would…
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dronald
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It’s extremely important that this be discussed with Muslims. Often Muslims will become hung up on Jesus’s Divinity and try to disprove it using the Biblical texts but ignore that every early account of Jesus; biblical or not says He most certainly was crucified.He’s only brought up to me his disagreement that Jesus is God. Im not sure why he did not probe into Jesus’ crucifixion with me though which I felt should have been a follow up question.
MJ
I’m not saying it’s intentional ignorance, but I just think it’s poor apologetics on the part of Christians. We shouldn’t be convincing Muslims that Jesus is God… That’s just too much to accept for Muslims for two big reasons:
- Rejection from family/friends/society
- Rejection from Allah; committing shirk, therefore going to Hell. As shirk is unforgivable.
For me personally I have issues with the Catholic beliefs in that I am on the fence. I love where I’m at, I know God has led me here; but is He bringing me to Catholicism? I never want the fact that I’m comfortable or that I have friends/family who aren’t Catholic to be the reason that I don’t become Catholic. They have a lot of history that sounds right, but some things I just can’t accept and therefore I remain a non-Catholic, Evangelical Christian.
So I hope that the reason you’re a Muslim isn’t just because the Qur’an is a beautiful book written in an exquisite, ancient Arabic. Nor do I hope your continuing as a Muslim is because your family/friends/society would denounce you. I hope it’s because you’ve looked at history, studied Jesus, studied His Disciples, studied the earliest Christians and come to the conclusion that they were certainly Muslims as the Qur’an claims.
If the Qur’an makes such a claim, and you can defend it historically then I would say you must remain a Muslim. But if the Qur’an makes such a claim and in your research you come to the conclusion that some of the text within the Qur’an are quite questionable, and that the Disciples were Christians who obeyed Jesus’s command to continue His teaching after His death/resurrection; then that’s a big deal, is it not?
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WT1
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The thing I absolutely love about what Muslims believe about Jesus is that he did not die. They even have an empty thomb waiting for him right next to Mohammad.
You can find the remains of Mohammad and there are temples that claim to have relics of Budda but our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ arose from the grave and went whole to the almighty Father.
They can rationalize it all they want but when he comes again they will know his divinity and the Truth.
You can find the remains of Mohammad and there are temples that claim to have relics of Budda but our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ arose from the grave and went whole to the almighty Father.
They can rationalize it all they want but when he comes again they will know his divinity and the Truth.
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MartinJordan
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You’ll be happy to note, I didn’t bring it up. I was his guest during a business trip (in a Muslim country) and staying in his residence but had returned from Sunday Mass at a Catholic church nearby . That’s when he popped the question. At that time I was only Sunday Catholic quite frankly, so I just answered him that Abraham is one of our both religions most important Prophets.
He did reply in agreement with “that’s true” and he didn’t as I said bring up the crucifixion part. Perhaps he was happy with my answer?
I know you were answering Drac, but it was around this time (the above experience with my friend) that I started to become more drawn my Faith. Infact I had more conversations with Muslims, and the more I did I realized that many differences of facts about who Christ was , who Abraham was, who Moses was, so on and so forth. I couldn’t believe how much I had to learn about Catholicism and how much more I must pray for those who aren’t fortunate to know Jesus is Lord!
MJ
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Zachary
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You might think the Crucifixion is a minor issue, however, it certainly was not for the writers of the Qur’an. I’d argue that the writers of the Qur’an were far more concerned with the audience of its time and had to cast doubt on the divine view of Jesus in order to steal Christians from their faith and give them something else to replace it with.
No divine Jesus, the Christianity fails, opening up a place for Islam. They couldn’t just do this with no mention of Jesus so Jesus had to be included but explained away.
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Zachary
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Which is odd considering they claim the bible is corrupt. Yet they refer to it quite a bit.
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Gabriel_of_12
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john 10:37 37"If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me; 38but if I do them, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, so that you may know and understand that the Father is in Me, and I in the Father."
Does Islam believe God sent Jesus in the flesh in the Son of Man who does the will of His Father revealed from His works to die for our sins and save us from eternal damnation?
Does Islam believe in the Son of Man = Jesus to do God’s will to suffer His passion, death and resurrection for our humanity?
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Randy_Carson
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I understand why you would think these things. However, NO ONE involved with the writing of the Qur’an was an eyewitness to the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus.
On the other hand, the authors of the four gospels, Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, were all either direct eyewitnesses or had access to eyewitnesses.
Further, various books contained in the New Testament actually challenge readers of their day to confirm what the books say by speaking with those eyewitnesses who were still alive.
This appeal to living witnesses seriously undermines the common claim that the New Testament has been corrupted. It would have been very difficult for the authors to write something that was not true or for changes to have been made to the texts later without living witnesses objecting immediately to those “corruptions”.
Additionally, because there are nearly 6,000 manuscript copies of the original autograph gospels still in existence and scattered around in libraries from Cairo to Moscow to London, etc, we can compare them to determine what “corruptions”, if any, exist.
Ask yourself this question, how would it be possible for someone to change a story in the New York Times once that edition of the paper has been delivered into circulation?
Similarly, it would have been impossible for anyone to change ALL 6,000 manuscripts simultaneously and in the same way once they were distributed to the Churches scattered across the Mediterranean and into Europe. And if anyone tried to change or “corrupt” a text early in the copying process, this would have to have occurred in the earliest decades - but this was the same period in which the living eyewitnesses would have been around to object to the error being introduced.
Would any Muslim today allow the Qur’an to be changed without strenuous objection? The early Christians were just as serious about protecting and preserving their holy writings as you might be about yours. Sound reasonable?
So, from this, you should be able to conclude that the common Muslim argument that the Bible is “corrupted” is a charge that is easily disproved by scientific research into the matter.
If the text is not significantly corrupted and the eyewitnesses were in a position to record accurate history, then the claim of Jesus’ death and resurrection must be taken far more seriously than a simple dismissal without cause seems to warrant.
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hasantas
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Muslims do not intent to give something else to replace it with. Muslims do not want Christians to be Muslim. Muslims want to tell the fact! If Christians accept that Jesus was only a prophtet then what will they lose? Nothing! Because they do not their God(Father). Every prophet before Jesus did like that. And Jesus exactly did like other prophet. Is there anything show that Jesus to be God but except miracles because all many prophets performed miracles? Will not people who believed in a prophet(but not a man God) have salvation?
The writers of Quran wrote what they exactly hear from prophet. And prophet said what exactly Angel Gabriel brought. There are other words of prophet Muhammed which are called Hadiths but they are not exactly revelation but they based on revelation. If some does not believe that the Quran is exactly speechs of god then that some must bring some thing like Quran verses! But nobody can do that and Quran challenge on this issue for about 1400 years.
And the crucifixion! If some other who appear like Jesus was crucifixed then all history(historical documents) would say that Jesus was crucifixed as it is usual. Who say that Jesus was on crucifixion is right because some was on crucifixion. So there maybe some texts about crucifixion because saints(or people) saw Jesus(appearance). But Quran(Allah, God, Father) explicate that.
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dronald
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I’m only going to comment on this, because it’s specifically what the topic is about; and there’s other threads to discuss whether Jesus is God.
If indeed the Disciples of Jesus were fooled by Allah’s trick which portrayed a man like Jesus on the cross then it stands to reason that Allah is a deceiver.
Allah then created a Religion that caused first Jesus’s closest followers to be tricked, and in turn they passed on this trick to their followers; which eventually formed the most peaceful Religion that every Christian was willing to die for. And has now led us to this day, where Christianity maintains the top spot for adherents.
Allah tricked the first Disciples and to this day there are billions of Christians because of a sneaky trick by Allah that obviously backfired.
Sorry, I can’t believe that and I don’t know why you do.
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hasantas
Guest
God tricked unbelievers and saved His prophet. Even if Jesus was crucifixed what will be different or changed? Did not any prophet get killed before? So did they dead as sacrifice for sins of their’s followers?
Jesus either was crucifixed or not but Christianity is a holy religion. The divinity of Christianity is not to be changed with that but unfortunately Christians do. Because they think Jesus was tortured for their sins but that is not right. You say Allah must not deceive unbelievers but you mean Allah can be unjust! If Jesus was sacrificed (with His human nature!) then is it not unjust for human side of Jesus? Did God impose His Son to be victim or His Son was willing?
To say Jesus was not crucifixed not mean to reject Christianity. And disciples of Christians are not fool. There have been millions of moraly high Christians and we respect them. If the last prophet had not come I would prefer to be a Christian.
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dronald
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No, this is so untrue. According to history Allah tricked everyone (assuming Islam is correct). No one believed that Jesus was not crucified after He was portrayed as crucified.
It would invalidate the Quran’s claim that “Jesus was not crucified” and therefore your Religion would be false.
Again; it either happened or it didn’t. And it clearly happened and therefore invalidates Islam.
If you were a Christian you would then believe in the death and resurrection of Christ, like every other Christian.
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hasantas
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=dronald;12767973]
There are some contradictions in details about crucifixion in Gospels. That show nobody know truthful case but Allah know best.
As we know there have been allways debates about crucifixion between Christians especially between early Christians. Some thought that Jesus was not crucifixed and also now there are Christians wo do not believe in crucifixion.
There are some contradictions in details about crucifixion in Gospels. That show nobody know truthful case but Allah know best.
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Randy_Carson
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Could you provide some examples of these disagreements? You see, not everyone who is a westerner is a “Christian”, so heretics who denied certain aspects of Christianity were not simply bad Christians or a “different” sect of Christians - they were not Christians at all. It is possible for Christians to disagree on minor points, of course, but to deny the death of Jesus on the cross? That’s not Christianity. :nope:
Do Sunnis and Shia consider each other to be true Muslims?
When five people are interviewed by the police concerning an automobile accident, they may give as many as five different accounts of the events. It is only when the five have collaborated that their stories begin to sound exactly the same.
Therefore, the differences in details of the Gospels STRENGTHENS the argument that the gospel writers did not work together to tell a single common story, but they actually were independent witnesses who agreed on the MAIN points (Jesus died on the cross) and disagreed about the minor points such as the naming of the women who were there watching, etc.
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Kliska
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No, you’d have it that Allah tricked believers; Jesus’ closest friends, followers, and family, including His own Mother, Mary. God is Love, He does not lie.
Before the creation of all things, God the Son agreed to the price, and knew of the sacrifice that He would make if humans were created. He agreed to it out of love to fix the mess we have made of things. God Himself took on human flesh and dwelt among us, giving His life for us, a sacrifice for our sin. He took all sin upon Himself, He laid His own life down, and then took it up again. No mere prophet has done so.
One can’t pick and choose the fundamental truth and teachings of scripture, if you’d be Christian, then on some level you are willing to entertain the idea that Jesus did indeed die for you and me and all of humanity, and then rose again 3 days later.
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Larryk113
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I’m enjoying the dialogue here. Interesting.
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Randy_Carson
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Spot on, Kliska.
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hasantas
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=Kliska;12769000]
For believer and disciples of Jesus: what would be changed either they would learn Jesus raised or died on cross? If they do not know that Jesus was raised so were they tricked? Do God tell everything what God knows or do? If God do not inform about His actions so do God deceive us? Do God have to inform people? Here a lesson from Quran:
1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?.. Galatians 3
That means threre were someone wo did not believe in crucifixion. Forexample saint Jacob did not tell anything about cross!
Who claim that God lie? That man who appear like Jesus was a fink and traitor. So God punished him in that way.
For believer and disciples of Jesus: what would be changed either they would learn Jesus raised or died on cross? If they do not know that Jesus was raised so were they tricked? Do God tell everything what God knows or do? If God do not inform about His actions so do God deceive us? Do God have to inform people? Here a lesson from Quran:
- Muhammad is no more than a messenger: many were the a messengers that passed away before him. Is it that if he died or were slain, will ye then turn back on your heels? If any did turn back on his heels, not the least harm will he do to Allah. But Allah (on the other hand) will swiftly reward those who (serve Him) with gratitude.(Al-Imran:144)
1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?.. Galatians 3
That means threre were someone wo did not believe in crucifixion. Forexample saint Jacob did not tell anything about cross!
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