Muslims: Did Jesus Die on the Cross?

[hasantas]

=Randy Carson;12768893]

Could you provide some examples of these disagreements? You see, not everyone who is a westerner is a “Christian”, so heretics who denied certain aspects of Christianity were not simply bad Christians or a “different” sect of Christians - they were not Christians at all. It is possible for Christians to disagree on minor points, of course, but to deny the death of Jesus on the cross? That’s not Christianity. :nope:

Do Sunnis and Shia consider each other to be true Muslims?

The true Christianity is the way and laws of Jesus and Bible during life of jesus. After death of Jesus many things happened. Some part was added on and some was taken out. The death on cross for sins is doctrine of Church. Jesus did not tell anything about His death or being a sacrifice. All these were added after Him. But of course Christianity could hold many facts.

Sunna and Shia are same in faith and main topics. Both are true İslam. But there are some political issues which is not religious problems at all. And also in details of deeds and worships there should be some differences. There are 4 main sects in Sunnis.

When five people are interviewed by the police concerning an automobile accident, they may give as many as five different accounts of the events. It is only when the five have collaborated that their stories begin to sound exactly the same.

Therefore, the differences in details of the Gospels STRENGTHENS the argument that the gospel writers did not work together to tell a single common story, but they actually were independent witnesses who agreed on the MAIN points (Jesus died on the cross) and disagreed about the minor points such as the naming of the women who were there watching, etc

.

In a way you are right. There is a case of cross. But what I mean nobody knew the inside story!

 

[Kliska]

Who claim that God lie? That man who appear like Jesus was a fink and traitor. So God punished him in that way.

If what you are proposing is what happened, that God set up this “fink” to die in place of Jesus, then that is a deception of the highest order. It would have had to have been an exact imposter that looked and sounded like Jesus, and then God would have had to have lied after this fake individual was taken down and then appeared to the disciples, and on and on… It would be what we call a “con” of the highest order. That is not what God is about, God is about truth and love and is not the author of confusion.

For believer and disciples of Jesus: what would be changed either they would learn Jesus raised or died on cross? Do God tell everything what God knows or do? If God do not inform about His actions so do God deceive us? Do God have to inform people?

The Lord God does not deceive us, and He does indeed inform people of His own free will. He can indeed inform people, if that is His choice, yes? Of course He can, He is all-powerful and He is love. He wants people to come to Him, so He revealed Himself to mankind. He actually came here and died for you and me! Not only did He come here to die for us, He reveals Himself to us by Jesus Christ.

Jesus Christ claimed divinity, and then proved He was Who He said He was by raising from the dead! He was truly crucified and He truly raised 3 days later after claiming He would! No other person has ever done so. He lived a holy and pure life full of love and teaching, was crucified and rose again. Eyewitnesses testified of the fact of His death by crucifixion and also His resurrection. Yes, it matters very much.

In Galatians 3 Saint Paul impose Galatians to believe in cross:

Let’s read;*

Galatians 3: 1 You foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified? 2 This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? 3 Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh? 4 Did you suffer so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain? 5 So then, does He who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles among you, do it by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? 6 Even so Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness. 7 Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham. 8 The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “All the nations will be blessed in you.” 9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham , the believer. 10 For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law, to perform them.” 11 Now that no one is justified by the Law before God is evident; for, " The righteous man shall live by faith." 12 However , the Law is not of faith; on the contrary, “He who practices them shall live by them.” 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us—for it is written,** "Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree "— 14 in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.**

15 Brethren, I speak in terms of human relations: even though it is only a man’s covenant , yet when it has been ratified, no one sets it aside or adds conditions to it. 16 Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. He does not say, “And to seeds,” as referring to many, but rather to one, “And to your seed,” that is, Christ. 17 What I am saying is this: the Law, which came four hundred and thirty years later, does not invalidate a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to nullify the promise. 18 For if the inheritance is based on law, it is no longer based on a promise; but God has granted it to Abraham by means of a promise. 19 Why the Law then? It was added because of transgressions, having been ordained through angels by the agency of a mediator, until the seed would come to whom the promise had been made. 20 Now a mediator is not for one party only; whereas God is only one. 21 Is the Law then contrary to the promises of God? May it never be! For if a law had been given which was able to impart life, then righteousness would indeed have been based on law. 22 But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. 23 But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed.** 24 Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith. 25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor . 26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s descendants , heirs according to promise.***

So what do we learn? Jesus was quite blatantly preached crucified, and Paul points out that there were eyewitnesses to that historical fact. He is not trying to convince them, he is reminding them. Not only does he point that out, but also that it was necessary for the Lord to die as a sacrifice, and that it is by faith in Him that we are saved. This teaching, of the Lord’s crucifixion has been around since He crucified, in public, in front of all those that lived with Him and knew Him, and yes, in front of His very own Mother.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Who claim that God lie? That man who appear like Jesus was a fink and traitor. So God punished him in that way.

For believer and disciples of Jesus: what would be changed either they would learn Jesus raised or died on cross? If they do not know that Jesus was raised so were they tricked? Do God tell everything what God knows or do? If God do not inform about His actions so do God deceive us? Do God have to inform people? Here a lesson from Quran:

1. Muhammad is no more than a messenger: many were the a messengers that passed away before him. Is it that if he died or were slain, will ye then turn back on your heels? If any did turn back on his heels, not the least harm will he do to Allah. But Allah (on the other hand) will swiftly reward those who (serve Him) with gratitude.(Al-Imran:144)

I don’t believe that the Qur’an is true, but I’ll assume for a moment that it is, okay? The Qur’an says that “Muhammad is no more than a messenger.”

You don’t believe that the Bible is true, but assume for a moment that it is, okay. The Bible says that Jesus is GOD.

Jesus’ claim is bigger and more important than Muhammad’s. Therefore, if what Jesus claimed can be reasonably believed, then what the Bible says about Jesus is more important than what the Qur’an says about Muhammad - or Jesus - because Jesus was MORE THAN a prophet.

In Galatians 3 Saint Paul impose Galatians to believe in cross:

Galatians 3
1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?

That means threre were someone wo did not believe in crucifixion. Forexample saint Jacob did not tell anything about cross!

Why is this surprising, hasantas?

Paul had been preaching Jesus Christ crucified to the Galatians and many of them had accepted this message. However, some other people had come to Galatia and claimed that Jesus was not crucified. This is seen in chapter one of Galatians:

Galatians 1:6-12
6 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you to live in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— 7 which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse! 9 As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let them be under God’s curse!

10 Am I now trying to win the approval of human beings, or of God? Or am I trying to please people? If I were still trying to please people, I would not be a servant of Christ.

11 I want you to know, brothers and sisters, that the gospel I preached is not of human origin. 12 I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it; rather, I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ.

As you can see from this text, false preachers had tried to preach a different message than the gospel that Paul presented. Thus, Paul’s letter was written to reinforce the truth that he had previously taught.

I believe that Muhammad was a real person who founded the religion of Islam, but I do not believe he was a prophet of God; therefore, I am not a Muslim. Similarly, Christians, ALL Christians, believe that Jesus died upon the cross. Anyone who believes otherwise may agree that Jesus was a real person, a prophet or whatever, but that person is not considered to be a Christian.

Therefore, there are not two different versions of Christianity, and your attempt to point to those who had fallen away from the true faith as an example of Christians who DID not believe in the crucifixion is as nonsensical as it would be for me to call myself a Muslim even though I do not believe that Muhammad was the prophet.

 

[hasantas]

=Randy Carson;12770168]

I don’t believe that the Qur’an is true, but I’ll assume for a moment that it is, okay? The Qur’an says that “Muhammad is no more than a messenger.”

You don’t believe that the Bible is true, but assume for a moment that it is, okay. The Bible says that Jesus is GOD.

Jesus’ claim is bigger and more important than Muhammad’s. Therefore, if what Jesus claimed can be reasonably believed, then what the Bible says about Jesus is more important than what the Qur’an says about Muhammad - or Jesus - because Jesus was MORE THAN a prophet.

Muhammed was a humanbeing and a prophet. If some is not humanbeing then he cannot be a prophet for humanbeing. Forexample an angel cannot be a prophet for humans.

If some is beyond of humanbeing (an angel or a man God) hence he cannot be a mediator or messenger or prophet or sacrifice. Even if you claim that Jesus was a human beside He was a God still the problem is not solved. Because divinity part of Jesus cannot draw apart from human structure.

So if Jesus was more than a human/prophet then there is no mean or vantage in that because there are countless angels which are not human. And if Jesus was a God, but God do not need to come earth to save people. God can do that in a very easier way. Here there need a mediator who must have equal terms with humans.

A God cannot be a sacrifice and there is no mean with that for humans. Both Muhammed and Jesus were prophet and messenger of Allah. There is no distinction between prophets. But if we need to learn that who was more important as a prophet? Muhammed is more important.

 

[hasantas]

=Randy Carson;12770168]

You don’t believe that the Bible is true, but assume for a moment that it is, okay. The Bible says that Jesus is GOD.

I believe more than you that the Bible is true. But the Bible which brought to Jesus by Gabriel. The part that says or imply that Jesus is Son of Father is not true and that was added by peoples. True term is that: Jesus is Messenger(vassal) of Father(God).

 

[hasantas]

=Randy Carson;12770168]

Why is this surprising, hasantas?

Paul had been preaching Jesus Christ crucified to the Galatians and many of them had accepted this message. However, some other people had come to Galatia and claimed that Jesus was not crucified. This is seen in chapter one of Galatians:

Galatians 1:6-12
6 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you to live in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— 7 which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse! 9 As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let them be under God’s curse!
​

Saint Paul is very furious and careless at convincing Galatians. In 8 : But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach…

Saint Paul was a man and not a prophet. And he did bad things to followers of Jesus before. I mean Saint Paul might impose his thoughts to people.

As you can see from this text, false preachers had tried to preach a different message than the gospel that Paul presented. Thus, Paul’s letter was written to reinforce the truth that he had previously taught.

What if Saint Paul was false and others were right?

I believe that Muhammad was a real person who founded the religion of Islam, but I do not believe he was a prophet of God; therefore, I am not a Muslim. Similarly, Christians, ALL Christians, believe that Jesus died upon the cross. Anyone who believes otherwise may agree that Jesus was a real person, a prophet or whatever, but that person is not considered to be a Christian.

Therefore, there are not two different versions of Christianity, and your attempt to point to those who had fallen away from the true faith as an example of Christians who DID not believe in the crucifixion is as nonsensical as it would be for me to call myself a Muslim even though I do not believe that Muhammad was the prophet.

The people before Jesus who believed in a prophet will have salvation. Because God sent prophet to inform Himself and that is God’s law. So if you accept that Jesus was only a prophet you can have salvation. You do not need Jesus to be a God. Muslims believe in Muhammed as a prophet and Muslims will have salvation. Inshâallah!​

 

[hasantas]

=Kliska;12770137]

If what you are proposing is what happened, that God set up this “fink” to die in place of Jesus, then that is a deception of the highest order. It would have had to have been an exact imposter that looked and sounded like Jesus, and then God would have had to have lied after this fake individual was taken down and then appeared to the disciples, and on and on… It would be what we call a “con” of the highest order. That is not what God is about, God is about truth and love and is not the author of confusion.

The Lord God does not deceive us, and He does indeed inform people of His own free will. He can indeed inform people, if that is His choice, yes? Of course He can, He is all-powerful and He is love. He wants people to come to Him, so He revealed Himself to mankind. He actually came here and died for you and me! Not only did He come here to die for us, He reveals Himself to us by Jesus Christ.

Jesus Christ claimed divinity, and then proved He was Who He said He was by raising from the dead! He was truly crucified and He truly raised 3 days later after claiming He would! No other person has ever done so. He lived a holy and pure life full of love and teaching, was crucified and rose again. Eyewitnesses testified of the fact of His death by crucifixion and also His resurrection. Yes, it matters very much.

We do not know the exact time of Jesus’ rise. Perhaps that happened 3 days or some times after that man was crucifixed.

Yes God inform us about crucifixion in Quran as truely.

Nobody had seen Jesus risen from grave. There maybe a grave and dead body but that was not Jesus.

“He reveals Himself to us by Jesus Christ.” There is no objection about that.

 

[Trekker47]

=Kliska;12770137]
If some is beyond of humanbeing (an angel or a man God) hence he cannot be a mediator or messenger or prophet or sacrifice. Even if you claim that Jesus was a human beside He was a God still the problem is not solved. Because divinity part of Jesus cannot draw apart from human structure. .

I don’t know where this is coming from. If you can imagine the Bible’s claim as being true, that Jesus is both fully God and fully man, then who could possibly be a better mediator between God and man? If Jesus lived a human life, then He understands all our struggles and trials, and in being so close to God that, as He says, “the Father and I are one” (John 10:30), He must be the best mediator we could ever hope to have. And if He had a human body and a human soul, then in fully partaking of what it means to be human, I don’t see why He couldn’t be a messenger/prophet as well.

And if Jesus was a God, but God do not need to come earth to save people. God can do that in a very easier way.

How so? You also said that God can’t be a sacrifice, but I don’t see anything to support that claim. Think of it this way, God is perfect, the ultimate in every good thing, right? That means that any sin we commit is an offence to that ultimate good. Every single crime is a terrible offence precisely because it is God we are offending. Now say there needs to be atonement for that, to reconcile us to God, but what do we possibly have that could equal the crime’s we’ve committed? Surely none of us could atone for the sins of humanity, hence God Himself must save us, and surely the blood of His own Son is worth enough to satisfy justice.

I believe more than you that the Bible is true. But the Bible which brought to Jesus by Gabriel. The part that says or imply that Jesus is Son of Father is not true and that was added by peoples.

OK, A) How could the Bible be brought to Jesus by Gabriel? Jesus didn’t write the Bible, his followers did, based on his life. Unless you’re saying that Gabriel would say to Jesus “right, today I want you to tell your followers the parable of the vineyard”.
and B) There’s no reason to believe that parts of the Bible were ‘added on’ by followers, it doesn’t even make sense, why would the four writers independently decide to portray Jesus as God if there was nothing in His life to suggest otherwise, especially when they either knew Him themselves, or had access to many witnesses. They were trying to convey the truth.

Saint Paul is very furious and careless at convincing Galatians. In 8 : But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach…

Saint Paul was a man and not a prophet. And he did bad things to followers of Jesus before. I mean Saint Paul might impose his thoughts to people.

What if Saint Paul was false and others were right?

I believe the first part of that quote is a form of rhetoric, since obviously an angel of heaven couldn’t preach against the truth. Paul is trying to say that this IS the truth, so that if anyone at all were to preach against it, that person would be cursed by God. Otherwise, the statement doesn’t make sense.
Well yes, he was a man. The people who wrote the Quran were also men, they wrote what Muhammed told them to write. However he was divinely inspired, and everything he writes is backed up by the testimony of every other Bible writer. And yes, St Paul did bad things to Jesus’ followers, but you may be aware of the part where God speaks to him directly, he has a change of heart, and then goes about proclaiming the Gospels and generally telling people to stick as close to Jesus as possible.
As for whether he was wrong and the others were right…considering that his information comes from eyewitnesses to Jesus’ life…yeah. you get the idea.

We do not know the exact time of Jesus’ rise. Perhaps that happened 3 days or some times after that man was crucifixed.

Yes God inform us about crucifixion in Quran as truely.

Nobody had seen Jesus risen from grave. There maybe a grave and dead body but that was not Jesus.

There’s a reason we know the resurrection happened 3 days after, and that’s because it’s written down in historical accounts, and because we have a long tradition of celebrating it 3 days after we remember His death.
You may recall that the Quran account of the crucifixion differs from every other historical text on the matter, including (as everyone here has said), the eyewitness accounts of the day.
That last part is just blatantly false. From 1 Corinthians 15:

For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance[a]: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5 and that he appeared to Cephas,* and then to the Twelve. 6 After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers and sisters at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. 7 Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles, 8 and last of all he appeared to me also, as to one abnormally born.**

Here, the writer confirms that over five hundred people saw the risen Jesus, and since he says that many of them were still alive, he was challenging the people who read his letters to have it confirmed for themselves by talking to these witnesses. That and the whole story of the empty tomb argue against the ‘grave and dead body’ assertion.
God bless!*

 

[Randy_Carson]

Muhammed was a humanbeing and a prophet. If some is not humanbeing then he cannot be a prophet for humanbeing. Forexample an angel cannot be a prophet for humans.

If we define the word “prophet” as “a person regarded as an inspired teacher or proclaimer of the will of God”, then I agree with you.

If some is beyond of humanbeing (an angel or a man God) hence he cannot be a mediator or messenger or prophet or sacrifice. Even if you claim that Jesus was a human beside He was a God still the problem is not solved. Because divinity part of Jesus cannot draw apart from human structure.

Who made this rule?

Angels are messengers from God. Jesus is a mediator, a messenger, a prophet AND the sacrifice. You have ASSERTED that Jesus cannot be these things, but you have not proved that He cannot.

I would say there is no problem. Jesus was fully God and fully man - a human being born of a woman, and He was priest, prophet, and King. He was one person with two natures - a human nature and a divine nature which He shared with the Father and the Holy Spirit.

So if Jesus was more than a human/prophet then there is no mean or vantage in that because there are countless angels which are not human. And if Jesus was a God, but God do not need to come earth to save people. God can do that in a very easier way. Here there need a mediator who must have equal terms with humans.

God could have saved us in any number of ways. However, He chose to save us by sending Jesus, the second person of the Trinity, to die upon the cross.

A God cannot be a sacrifice and there is no mean with that for humans.

Again, who came up with this rule?

God was infinitely offended by Adam’s sin. God required an equally infinite sacrifice in return to take away that sin. Man could not pay such a price, so God chose to pay it Himself.

Both Muhammed and Jesus were prophet and messenger of Allah. There is no distinction between prophets. But if we need to learn that who was more important as a prophet? Muhammed is more important.

1. 
   *]If Jesus is merely a prophet then why does John 5:23 state that, “… everyone will honor the Son, just as they honor the Father. Anyone who does not honor the Son is certainly not honoring the Father who sent him” (John 5:23 ESV)?
   
   *]If Jesus is merely a prophet then why in Revelation 5:8-14 does it say that in heaven every creature including angels and elders will worship Jesus saying He is worthy of praise, glory, honour and power forever and ever?
   
   *]If Jesus is a mere prophet who’s life began at conception like the rest of mankind then why does the NT teach that Jesus pre-existed with the Father in unique Glory? Philippians 2:6-11 states:
   
   Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. (Philippians 2:6-11 KJV)
   
   *]If Jesus is a mere prophet why did He claim to have the power to raise Himself from the dead once killed? Is this something a prophet has ever claimed to be able to do?
   
   *]If Jesus is a mere prophet only preaching his prophet-hood, why did His statements denote His equality with God and Him being God? In John 10:33 and 5:18 we read:
   
   “For this reason they tried all the more to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God” (John 5:18 NIV).
   
   “We are not stoning you for any of these,” replied the Jews, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God” (John 10:33 NIV).
   
   Clearly the people of Jesus’ day as well as Apostle John’s own commentary recognized that His language here was so explicit in affirming his Deity that they knew without question that he was claiming to be God. Is there any other case in the Bible or Qur’an where a prophet’s teaching caused the people listening to believe they were claiming to be God?

 

[KjetilK]

No, I don’t believe he was crucifiede.

Unfortunately you won’t find a single serious scholar of history that agrees with you.

You choose to ignore a historical document that was compiled less than a 100 years after the event it described in favour of a document compiled almost 600 years after the event it described. Why?

 

[Randy_Carson]

=Kliska;12770137]

We do not know the exact time of Jesus’ rise. Perhaps that happened 3 days or some times after that man was crucifixed.

Yes God inform us about crucifixion in Quran as truely.

Nobody had seen Jesus risen from grave. There maybe a grave and dead body but that was not Jesus.

The Evidence for Jesus’ Resurrection

Fact 1:

After his crucifixion, Jesus was buried by Joseph of Arimathea in his personal tomb. This is significant because it would have been difficult for the disciples to make up the story of an empty tomb when everyone knew where the tomb was located.

1. 
   *]Jesus’ burial is attested in the very old tradition quoted by Paul in his first letter to the Corinthians.
   “For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5 and that he appeared to Cephas, and then to the Twelve.” (1 Co 15:3-5)
   Paul “received” this account from Peter within the first five years of Jesus’ crucifixion making the possibility of legend or myth very unlikely.
   *]The account of the burial is part of very old source material used by Mark in writing his gospel. The passion narrative, in particular, is thought to be from an even earlier account that was used by all of the gospel writers.
   *]As a member of the Jewish court that condemned Jesus, Joseph of Arimathea is unlikely to be a Christian invention.
   *]No competing burial story exists.
   
   Fact 2:
   
   On the Sunday following the crucifixion, the tomb of Jesus was found empty by a group of his female followers.
   1. 
      *]The empty tomb story is part of the very old source material used by Mark.
      *]The old tradition cited by Paul in 1 Corinthians implies the fact of the empty tomb.
      *]Mark’s story is simple and lacks signs of legendary embellishment.
      *]The fact that women’s testimony was worthless in first century Palestine strengthens the case that women were the first to discover the empty tomb. Why would any account use the suspect testimony of women if it were not an accurate recounting of what really happened?
      *]The earliest Jewish allegations that the disciples had stolen Jesus’ body presupposes that the tomb was empty.
      
      Fact 3:
      
      On multiple occasions and under various circumstances, different individuals and groups experienced appearances of Jesus alive after his death.
      1. 
         *]The list of eyewitnesses to Jesus’ resurrection appearances (which is quoted by Paul and vouchsafed by his personal acquaintance with many of the people involved), guarantees that such appearances occurred. These included appearances to Peter, to the Apostles, to 500 people at one time, and to James.
         *]The appearance traditions in the gospels provide multiple, independent attestation to these appearances.
         *]Researchers have noticed signs of historical credibility in the specific appearances; for example, the unexpected activity of the disciples’ fishing prior to Jesus’ appearance by the Lake of Tiberius or the otherwise inexplicable conversion of James.
         
         Fact 4:
         
         The disciples believed that Jesus was risen from the dead despite having every reason not to believe it.
         1. 
            *]Their leader was dead, and Jews had no belief in a dying (and rising) Messiah.
            *]According to Jewish law, Jesus’ execution as a criminal showed him to be a heretic and a man literally under the curse of God.
            *]Jewish beliefs about the afterlife precluded anyone’s rising from the dead before the general resurrection at the end of the world.
            
            The historical resurrection of Jesus is the best explanation of these facts.

 

[Kliska]

We do not know the exact time of Jesus’ rise. Perhaps that happened 3 days or some times after that man was crucifixed.

But we do, because we have historical documents that back one another up that have been shown accurate prophetically, historically, archaeologically, and are internally and externally consistent. The Lord Himself pointed to the sign of Jonah for the 3 days, as well as declaring He could tear down the temple and rebuild it in 3 days interpreting that for us to show He meant His body, and it is recorded that He did indeed rise 3 days later. We can trust what God tells us!

Nobody had seen Jesus risen from grave. There maybe a grave and dead body but that was not Jesus.

The facts don’t support your side. Jesus was buried in a known tomb. Jesus’ tomb had a Roman guard put on it, as well as being sealed. His own Mother knew exactly where they laid Him, she had not left His side. His closest followers proclaimed Him dead, buried, and then risen in the exact city in which it all happened. The Apostles’ lives were radically changed for the better, because they knew without doubt the Lord Jesus had risen!

Again, God does not want us to be confused on this point; the Lord has chosen to reveal Himself to us. Why? He loves us, and wants us to come to Him through His Son, Jesus. Jesus was both God and man to be that perfect mediator and perfect sacrifice. He is God and is all-powerful. He became a sacrifice for us, for without the shedding of blood, there is no remission of sin, and He became kin to us so He could redeem us, offering His precious blood on our behalf. Why? Because He loves you and I and wants us to be able to be in right relationship to Him. Trust Him.

“He reveals Himself to us by Jesus Christ.” There is no objection about that.

But you do object. You don’t believe God when He tells us that He reveals Himself through Jesus, not as a prophet, but that Jesus is God Himself. You don’t believe God has the power or love to do something so wonderful, but He does! And, He did it for all of us out of love and concern. Jesus doesn’t just tell us about God by speaking about God, but Jesus literally shows us God because He is God and He walked amongst us.

 

[ajecphotos]

Qua ran is so much ‘younger’ than the bible!! Plus, so many documents in history that run parallel with the stories of the New Testament etc.

How can the Muslim people refute the New Testament? It seems so illogical and narrow minded to do so!

 

[hasantas]

=Trekker47;12771199]I don’t know where this is coming from. If you can imagine the Bible’s claim as being true, that Jesus is both fully God and fully man, then who could possibly be a better mediator between God and man? If Jesus lived a human life, then He understands all our struggles and trials, and in being so close to God that, as He says, “the Father and I are one” (John 10:30), He must be the best mediator we could ever hope to have. And if He had a human body and a human soul, then in fully partaking of what it means to be human, I don’t see why He couldn’t be a messenger/prophet as well.

God can understant and trial humanbeing without being human/material. If God cannot do that then how will God judge humanbeing with all circumstances, senses, deeds etc?

God is closer than human to human: (16. It was We Who created man, and We know what suggestions his soul makes to him: for We are nearer to him than (his) jugular vein. Quran, Qaf:56)

A God and a man structure cannot unite in one body! I do not know why you cannot see that. A God never forgot, sleep or fit into a body. That is so obvious. That is not use to say if God want then he can do. A body is consist of materials(atoms) and atoms were created by God. So God is not what he created. God is beyond of everything, time and matter.

% 100 divinity is not % 100 humanity and those cannot unite. God create souls but God is not a soul. There are many problems but in conclusion a man God cannot be a mediator or prophet. Either Jesus was a God or a human but not both. God is not human then Jesus was a man.

 

[hasantas]

How so? You also said that God can’t be a sacrifice, but I don’t see anything to support that claim. Think of it this way, God is perfect, the ultimate in every good thing, right? That means that any sin we commit is an offence to that ultimate good. Every single crime is a terrible offence precisely because it is God we are offending. Now say there needs to be atonement for that, to reconcile us to God, but what do we possibly have that could equal the crime’s we’ve committed? Surely none of us could atone for the sins of humanity, hence God Himself must save us, and surely the blood of His own Son is worth enough to satisfy justice.

 

[hasantas]

OK, A) How could the Bible be brought to Jesus by Gabriel? Jesus didn’t write the Bible, his followers did, based on his life. Unless you’re saying that Gabriel would say to Jesus “right, today I want you to tell your followers the parable of the vineyard”.
and B) There’s no reason to believe that parts of the Bible were ‘added on’ by followers, it doesn’t even make sense, why would the four writers independently decide to portray Jesus as God if there was nothing in His life to suggest otherwise, especially when they either knew Him themselves, or had access to many witnesses. They were trying to convey the truth.

 

[hasantas]

As for whether he was wrong and the others were right…considering that his information comes from eyewitnesses to Jesus’ life…yeah. you get the idea.

 

[Larryk113]

A God and a man structure cannot unite in one body! I do not know why you cannot see that. A God never forgot, sleep or fit into a body. That is so obvious. That is not use to say if God want then he can do. A body is consist of materials(atoms) and atoms were created by God. So God is not what he created. God is beyond of everything, time and matter.

% 100 divinity is not % 100 humanity and those cannot unite. God create souls but God is not a soul. There are many problems but in conclusion a man God cannot be a mediator or prophet. Either Jesus was a God or a human but not both. God is not human then Jesus was a man.

The Lord can do as He wishes. He is the Begining and the end, Creator of all, Outside of human understanding.

 

[ajecphotos]

Trekker47;12771199:

Did only St Paul get from Jesus or were eyewitnesses?

If Jesus was not death till 3 days then there is no need for resurrection. I mean we do not know the time that Jesus rose. Jesus was not crucifixed so He may appear to someone for 3 days

.

 

[hasantas]

=Randy Carson;12771204

Who made this rule?

Angels are messengers from God. Jesus is a mediator, a messenger, a prophet AND the sacrifice. You have ASSERTED that Jesus cannot be these things, but you have not proved that He cannot.

If Jesus was a God then He cannot be a prophet. God sent prophet but God do not do prophet’s job. And if God suffer and get tired instead of human then human do not pay and satisfy debts and sins but human get into debt much more. Who can harm a God? If Son is a God then how an other God can harm? That is like a bit Greek mythology! And there is no degree in a divinity structure. I mean Father must not be superior over Son because both are God(?) Jesus allways says that “I will ask father(God)”.

I would say there is no problem. Jesus was fully God and fully man - a human being born of a woman, and He was priest, prophet, and King. He was one person with two natures - a human nature and a divine nature which He shared with the Father and the Holy Spirit.

God is not a man and if God was a man He cannot enforce obedience anybody. God do not need to be a man to understant a man. If God cannot understant a man then how He can be God? Forexample when I regret and repent for a sin as inside myself then God must know and hear that because He is God. There are many propblems with that two nature!..

God could have saved us in any number of ways. However, He chose to save us by sending Jesus, the second person of the Trinity, to die upon the cross.

God sent prophet to save us and that is God’s law from Adam to Abraham-Moses-Jesus-Muhammed. And who believe in prophets and so in God and obey God and worship and repent for sins then there is salvation for them. Do no be egoist because the salvation was/is not only for who say we are Christians.

Again, who came up with this rule?

God was infinitely offended by Adam’s sin. God required an equally infinite sacrifice in return to take away that sin. Man could not pay such a price, so God chose to pay it Himself.

Adam or anybody else cannot harm God in anyway. We cannot offend God with our sins but we offend ourselves/souls and demolish morality. So we must repair that with faith, worship, repentance etc. The fault is belong to us so we must correct that. And if God will He can forgive all sins but God wants a reason for that. And that reason must pay/do by humans but not by God.