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rpp
Guest
Thank you for the heads up!
I will send a “letter to the Editor”. Such a false and offensive claim should be exposed.
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I will send a “letter to the Editor”. Such a false and offensive claim should be exposed.
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caleb83
Guest
It is not a contradiction at all, or else everyone who says there are exceptions to lying would be contradicting themselves, but they really have a good reason corresponding with the purpose of speech.Contradiction at its best.
Find any reasonable explaination of the morality of lying and you will find it more complecated and with conditions and exceptions. Just try to think out a way it isn’t so. Try to define exactly what ‘telling’ is and ‘truth’ and the alternitive of truth together with the intension and for any context. The exceptions given above make perfect sense and do not in themselves permit one to stretch them.
In Catholicism there is canon law. To read the canons does not tell you about how someone could stretch them and it doesn’t impute that intension on the canons and law, they are legal and precise statements.
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dolphinlove
Guest
You either allow lying or you dont allow lying. There is no gray area in this. You either do, or do not.
To say, there is no lying, then turn around and say, oh, but you can under these circumstances, is a contradiction.
In Catholicism, lying is not allowed, period. There is no ‘relaxed rules’ to allow to lie.
For example, if someone says, how are you? and you say fine, and your not fine, that is still a lie. But if you are in a bad mood and say im not good. That is the truth and there is no need to lie and conceal the truth. God doesnt lie, he expects the same of us.
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caleb83
Guest
This cannot be true because it is impossible, like extreme black and white thinking. From your example: ‘how are you?’ and I say fine, is not simple at all, and does not permit of one right and wrong answer. One can they are fine even if in some way they may not be, without any intension to deceive. And guess what? One can misrepresent the truth without any intension to do so. One can and must judge according to a purpose. From this Thomas follows Augustine and says that it is nonetheless lying, and trys to show maybe how there is some type of malice, and immorality.
A glace at the Catholic Encyclopedia article on lying shows that this is NOT a simple matter, nor is there a unanimous opinion. I cannot fault the Islamic moralists for treating this issue as the Catholic ones do and any serious thinker does, namely as a NON simple issue.
“Lying is not allowed period”? No, “lying is not allowed colon: explaination.”
As for Shia deception and dissimulation, one should be ready to learn what it actually means and slow to assume and make connections.
Every child that is alive and taught a religion is alive because their ancestor lived and the teaching survived. Think about the massacres of our day, think about the Holocaust. I would not dare impute immorality to an action that allows a child to be born today, to survive, and to be taught the Law, and THAT is why Hitler is defeated. What do we owe to tyrants?
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dolphinlove
Guest
Ok, answer this, if you say to your wife oh you look so beautiful darling, when in truth, she looks like she is wearing a garbage bag. Would you rather risk your wife embarrassing herself or being honest and saying that doesnt look flattering on you?
I would rather someone say to me you dont look good in that.
You either lie, or you dont, its that simple!
It is black and white, I wouldnt lie to God, would you? So why would you lie to your fellow man? God wants us to treat each other with love, respect, and honesty, which comes under the banner of NOT lying. period!
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dolphinlove
Guest
What on earth does this have to do with the debate that lying is tolerated or not?
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caleb83
Guest
It relates to the Shia practice of Taqiyya:
Such things are done for the sake of survival, have a political purpose like success, that you and people like you, the Shiites, aren’t killed or annihilated. I meant to relate the idea to massacres in general, and the values involved. Taqiyya is permitted under conditions and has different applications and degrees, but the idea was developed in the context of the experience of massacres. The persecution of the early Shia.
This is a Shia resource that has some articles on Taqiyya:
al-islam.org/encyclopedia/
The classic hypothetical used by Augustine also deals with the grave matter of killing: you are hiding someone in your house and people come and ask you if they are inside or if you know where they are. What do you do? These can be and have been real and practical applications. The Holocaust instantly comes to mind.
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rpp
Guest
So, according to Islam, when God gave us the commandment forbidding lying, He did not really mean it.
You realize that what you have just stated is that all muslims might be liars.
Okay, thank you for clearing that up. We will keep this in mind whenever we hear* anything* from someone whom we even suspect may be muslim.
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Gabriel_of_12
Guest
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planten
Guest
Then this is not true of what the Quran states?
Qu’ran – allows its followers to Lie and deceive as a virtue of Islam
Taqiyya = lying against unbelievers is a virtue and a religious duty according to the Qu’ran, Haddith (tradition), Islamic Law
Qu’ran
Sura 16:106 Establishes that there are circumstances that can “compel” a Muslim to tell a lie
The above is a part of the post by Gabriel, post #48. What is written is not true at all. I will refer to the verse only to prove that the information given is not true. There is no allowance to tell any lie. Pleasee the verses below:
[16:104] As to those who do not believe in the Signs of Allah, surely, Allah will not guide them, and they shall have a grievous punishment. [16:105] It is only those who believe not in the Signs of Allah, who forge falsehood, and they it is who are the liars.
[16:106] Whoso disbelieves in Allah after he has believed - save him who is forced to make a declaration of disbelief while his heart finds peace in faith - but such as open their breast to serious disbelief, on them is Allah’s wrath; and for them is decreed a severe punishment.
[16:107] That is because they have preferred the present life to the Hereafter, and because Allah guides not the disbelieving people.
Please see that it is the disbelievers who are the liars. But in a very difficult situation, a person may be compelled to deny Allah, his case is different. He is under pressure and being persecuted, he will not be punished by Allah. But only the one who really disbelieves seriously without any compulsion, he/she will be under the wrath of allah…
There is no allowance for the muslims to tell a lie whenever they like. If I am wrong then please tell me and I will come back with some other news for you.
Qu’ran – allows its followers to Lie and deceive as a virtue of Islam
Taqiyya = lying against unbelievers is a virtue and a religious duty according to the Qu’ran, Haddith (tradition), Islamic Law
Qu’ran
Sura 16:106 Establishes that there are circumstances that can “compel” a Muslim to tell a lie
The above is a part of the post by Gabriel, post #48. What is written is not true at all. I will refer to the verse only to prove that the information given is not true. There is no allowance to tell any lie. Pleasee the verses below:
[16:104] As to those who do not believe in the Signs of Allah, surely, Allah will not guide them, and they shall have a grievous punishment. [16:105] It is only those who believe not in the Signs of Allah, who forge falsehood, and they it is who are the liars.
[16:106] Whoso disbelieves in Allah after he has believed - save him who is forced to make a declaration of disbelief while his heart finds peace in faith - but such as open their breast to serious disbelief, on them is Allah’s wrath; and for them is decreed a severe punishment.
[16:107] That is because they have preferred the present life to the Hereafter, and because Allah guides not the disbelieving people.
Please see that it is the disbelievers who are the liars. But in a very difficult situation, a person may be compelled to deny Allah, his case is different. He is under pressure and being persecuted, he will not be punished by Allah. But only the one who really disbelieves seriously without any compulsion, he/she will be under the wrath of allah…
There is no allowance for the muslims to tell a lie whenever they like. If I am wrong then please tell me and I will come back with some other news for you.
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Gabriel_of_12
Guest
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caleb83
Guest
It seems as if there are people who cannot be convinced or understand because they really don’t want to. If it has to do with a certain subject, they are immune to any information regarding it.
Truely a bizarre phenomena. Those here who bring evidence from Hadith in this matter – how appropriate compared to those who think this issue is black and white and think the Catholic tradition is superior and more honest. Just take a look at the Catholic Encyclopedia article on lying.
Look at the accusations and insinuations against Newman, the idea that he was showing the true colors of Roman dishonesty in what he said about the morality of telling the truth.
One can at the very least have sympathy with those evil and dishonest Muslims when you see that their scholars dealt with the same issues as yours and have been in the same boat.
As for Taqiyya: they are right who said that it is mostly a Shiite matter and should be treated in a seperate pile, and analysis of that matter cannot rightly be generalized beyond that tradition into Sunni casuistry.
Taqiyya does not mean lying anyway, but is a broader concept. Of course that distinction might be invisible to someone whereing black-and-white glasses. (that kind of stuff always saddens me, I can’t help it)
Truely a bizarre phenomena. Those here who bring evidence from Hadith in this matter – how appropriate compared to those who think this issue is black and white and think the Catholic tradition is superior and more honest. Just take a look at the Catholic Encyclopedia article on lying.
Look at the accusations and insinuations against Newman, the idea that he was showing the true colors of Roman dishonesty in what he said about the morality of telling the truth.
One can at the very least have sympathy with those evil and dishonest Muslims when you see that their scholars dealt with the same issues as yours and have been in the same boat.
As for Taqiyya: they are right who said that it is mostly a Shiite matter and should be treated in a seperate pile, and analysis of that matter cannot rightly be generalized beyond that tradition into Sunni casuistry.
Taqiyya does not mean lying anyway, but is a broader concept. Of course that distinction might be invisible to someone whereing black-and-white glasses. (that kind of stuff always saddens me, I can’t help it)
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planten
Guest
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Traditional_Ang
Guest
Morning Star 777:
I know what you’re talking about - The TAC Bishop of Pakistan was beheaded because he was involved in converting Muslim to Christianity and then refused to make the Islamic Profession of Faith (all of the while saying, “Jesus is Lord!”).
I’m still not allowed to say how my Archbishop recovered his body. Let’s just say the Government of Pakistan didn’t make nice and give his body to either him, his family or the Vatican (which also requested it). …
Kadaveri, you said something about, “Muslims to the Gas Chambers!”, but ignored several things:
Jews can’t go through Parish and many cities in France wearing either the Mogan David or the Kippa - and, Many Synagogues and Jewish schools have been attacked and vandalized by Muslim youths in France, and elsewhere in Europe;
Muslims destroyed Churches, Embassies, hospitals and other buildings and killed innocent Jews, Christians and others in response to CARTOONS which purported to show the Prophet, Mohammed. Since the Koran doesn’t prohibit the making of pictures of the Prophet, but only the creation of idols, and since the Prophet is a man and not God, these acts are not only murder and idolatry, they must be defined as fitna.
Over 2 million Black African Christians and Animists have been slaughtered and another 400,000 sold into slavery by the Government of Sudan and Militias backed by the Gov’t of Sudan in Southern Sudan during the last 20 years.
Over 400,000 Black African Muslims and Christians have been slaughtered and sold into slavery by the same people listed above in Darfur during the last 4 years.
And then we have the incidents -
Theo van Gogh, Grand Nephew of Vincent van Gogh was shot in broad daylight by a Muslim because he did a film about Islamism.
Children humiliated and then slaughtered in Beslan, AFTER the CHECHYAN woman terrorist was blown to bits by the SAUDI LEADer for having the audacity to suggest that it was wrong to humiliate and torture the children since they were going to kill them anyway.
And so forth, ad nausium…
I had hoped for better, like some self-examination. Instead, what we got was Turnspeak, accusing one’s opponents of doing what ones co-religionists are already doing to the ones trying to do dialog.
Kadaveri, Shame - We could have had better.
Morning Star - Your Brother in Christ, Michael
Kadaveri, I came and left in peace, Michael
PS: I also have a Fatwa against me, so that’s two of us… Kadaveri, will you at least rebuke the Fatwas on both of us?
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planten
Guest
Quite a big one way list. If the Pakistan people killed any padre for converting some one to christianity then it was unislamic. It was a great sin.
Things like that happen. The Jews are not following the teachings of Moses a.s. The christians are not doing anything good as taught by Jesus. Same is the case with Muslims. They do have very bad ideas, nothing to do with real Islam.
So please do not blame the religion in these matters. That christian preacher was innocent and he could convert hundreds of persons in pakistan without being punished. That would be if Islam was there in pakistan.
Things like that happen. The Jews are not following the teachings of Moses a.s. The christians are not doing anything good as taught by Jesus. Same is the case with Muslims. They do have very bad ideas, nothing to do with real Islam.
So please do not blame the religion in these matters. That christian preacher was innocent and he could convert hundreds of persons in pakistan without being punished. That would be if Islam was there in pakistan.
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Gabriel_of_12
Guest
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R_not
Guest
And to blame the other guy seems to be common - we went over this extensively in another thread about deception being sanctioned in the koran. It is indeed sanctioned - and that goes for Sunni, and whoever follows the koran, too. YOu can call it what you want.
Here is an interesting article stating that things change according to the audience that it is presented to: jihadwatch.org/archives/021617.php
Although, I don’t know why mixing of the sexes would be a problem for most people - it seems that it isn’t a problem in islam either if the woman suckles the men.
youtube.com/watch?v=4RQd1CRBQs0
But, the article I mention goes into the pitfalls of interfaith dialogue since we are not used to deception when conversing about such things. It seems that muslims have a lot to hide - if they didn’t why is it such a problem for their own to read and discuss the koran and question it, along with their own prophet and allah? Everyone else seems to have no problem doing that with their own faith.
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caleb83
Guest
Not true for “muslims” nor for “everyone else”. No religion in the world is more notorious for dividing itself in bitter and quite violent heresy and schism than Christianity. The only virtue is that it was not total war some of the time thanks to the Roman Empire. Not “everyone else” gets along better and is more open than muslims. To question and debate and discuss sacred things is the heart of the madrasa mosque institution which is the the ORIGIN of the Catholic University.
“Some” Catholics in some times have a reputation for obscuring and hiding in ritual and not questioning, all the while supporting political sides. There are quite a few people who make of that more than it is.
There was a time when Catholics could be stuck in the past looking back to old glory days when the Church was on top and relevant to the world. Imagine if on top of losing your golden age you were invaded and conquered by another culture. One might tend to glorify the most glorious history of yourself a little too much. Become immune to critizism from the invader outsiders. Christians are just Crusaders and the rest. As if the Crusaders were more than cave men barbarians when Baghdad was the center of civilization.
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R_not
Guest
I guess that is why if infidels discuss the koran, hadiths and/or mohammed in mostly muslim countries - they are tortured and most times killed. Or muslims themselves are either put in jail and/or tortured and/or killed for doing so.
Yep - you have convinced me of that argument… NOT!
As for Christians being more divided than not - well, I don’t know what you mean. Yes there are different sects of Christianity, but I will tell you quite frankly - I don’t care. They are not out to kill or subjugate me.
As for a ‘golden age’, I have no idea what you are talking about.
Just about a month ago a Saudi was open to the idea of religious tolerance to other religions - and his discussion got ‘cut off short’ - basically he was beheaded. That is a good example of ‘getting along together’. Other examples are the jihadists that go into Iraq and not only kill our troops, but other muslims too. Basically our troops have gone into homes and found whole families slaughtered. Or how about the shiite vs the sunni squabbles? Gets pretty bloody, if you ask me.
How about the kidnapping of the young children in the Gaza and training them to be jihadists - there was a youtube video about a young boy killing another muslims who was ‘thought’ to be a spy. No trial, no evidence, nothing - and the boy of 12 beheaded him. Nothing was, or is, done to those who take the laws into their own hands.
youtube.com/watch?v=1fTnTEYsiic&feature=related
6 year old that almost got recruited but the boy escaped.
youtube.com/watch?v=QcYykH-V_R8
Here is the beheading of an innocent teenager:
youtube.com/watch?v=3wy0_ZfsDMM
Nothing was done to these murderers.
Or here is how they get along with infidels - forcing them to convert:
thereligionofpeace.com/Quran/013-forced-conversion.htm
here we see how muslims get along so very well with Copt Christians in Egypt:
youtube.com/watch?v=36TNd3c0K8Q
you can go to part 2 and 3 from there to see the rest.
This one is shocking how muslims get along with their own children - sending them out to be suicide bombers as young as 8:
youtube.com/watch?v=1b2QhQQpHck
The koran itself is just chock full of violence - and once again we have to repeat all of this stuff due to the denial of muslims of what their own koran and hadiths say.
thereligionofpeace.com/Quran/023-violence.htm
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R_not
Guest
the usual Crusader myths pushed by muslims - again.
It is like the same old stuff only a different hour/day/week/etc.
thereligionofpeace.com/Pages/Games-Muslims-Play.htm
**The Crusades
The Muslim Game:
Muslims love talking about the Crusades… and Christians love apologizing for them. To hear both parties tell the story, one would believe that Muslims were just peacefully minding their own business in lands that were legitimately Muslim, when Christian armies decided to wage holy war and "kill millions.”
The Truth:
Every part of this myth is a lie. By the rules that Muslims claim for themselves, the Crusades were perfectly justified, and the excesses (though beneath Christian standards) pale in comparison with the historical treatment of conquered populations at the hands of Muslims.
Here are some quick facts…
The first Crusade began in 1095… 460 years after the first Christian city was overrun by Muslim armies, 457 years after Jerusalem was conquered by Muslim armies, 453 years after Egypt was taken by Muslim armies, 443 after Muslims first plundered Italy, 427 years after Muslim armies first laid siege to the Christian capital of Constantinople, 380 years after Spain was conquered by Muslim armies, 363 years after France was first attacked by Muslim armies, 249 years after Rome itself was sacked by a Muslim army, and only after centuries of church burnings, killings, enslavement and forced conversions of Christians.
By the time the Crusades finally began, Muslim armies had conquered two-thirds of the Christian world.
Europe had been harassed by Muslims since the first few years following Muhammad’s death. As early as 652, Muhammad’s followers launched raids on the island of Sicily, waging a full-scale occupation 200 years later that lasted almost a century and was punctuated by massacres, such as that at the town of Castrogiovanni, in which 8,000 Christians were put to death. In 1084, ten years before the first crusade, Muslims staged another devastating Sicilian raid, burning churches in Reggio, enslaving monks and raping an abbey of nuns before carrying them into captivity.
In theory, the Crusades were provoked by the harassment of Christian pilgrims from Europe to the Holy Land, in which many were kidnapped, molested, forcibly converted to Islam or even killed. (Compare this to Islam’s justification for slaughter on the basis of Muslims being denied access to the Meccan pilgrimage in Muhammad’s time).
The Crusaders only invaded lands that were Christian. They never attacked Saudi Arabia or sacked Mecca as the Muslims had done (and continued doing) to Italy and Constantinople.
The period of Crusader “occupation” (of its own former land) was stretched over less than two centuries. The Muslim occupation is in its 1,372nd year.
The period of Crusader “aggression” compresses to about 20 years of actual military campaign, much of which was spent on organization and travel. (They were from 1098-1099, 1146-1148, 1188-1192, 1201-1204, 1218-1221, 1228-1229, and 1248-1250). By comparison, the Muslim Jihad against the island of Sicily alone lasted 75 grinding years.
Unlike Jihad, the Crusades were never justified on the basis of New Testament teachings. This is why they are an anomaly, the brief interruption of fourteen centuries of relentless Jihad against Christianity that began long before the Crusades and continued well after they were over.
The greatest crime of the Crusaders was the sacking of Jerusalem, in which 30,000 people were said to have been massacred. This number is dwarfed by the number of Jihad victims, from India to Constantinople and Narbonne, but Muslims have never apologized for their crimes and never will.
What is called ‘sin and excess’ by other religions, is what Islam refers to as the will of Allah.**
Muslim responses to unpleasant Islamic facts:
islam-watch.org/Others/Muslim-Responses-to-Unpleasant-Islamic-Facts.htm
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