Muslims, how can this be proper?

[R_not]

After reading your post - I think that you are just ‘wishfully’ thinking.

Most of the words describing islam/muslims, come from us - not them. the terms ‘moderate’, ‘radical’, etc are examples.

islam is islam and muslims are muslims. If they are going to change it has to come from them - not from us wishing it. OR there has to come from us some sort of consequence to them if they do not behave themselves in our lands and elsewhere. But I don’t have the answers as to what or how to do such a thing.

Italian writer Oriana Fallaci, said: **“A moderate Islam does not exist. It does not exist because there is no difference between Good Islam and Bad Islam. There is Islam and that it the end of it. Islam is the Koran, and nothing other than the Koran.“ **(Oriana Fallaci”The Force of Reason” post-script page 305 February 2006)]

Look at these threads - no matter how many facts, truths, etc there are - they won’t read them, they ignore them, and/or they deny them. They deflect, ‘muddy the waters’, etc and won’t address one item other than saying we are lying and misleading.

At one point I heard that in Turkey a group was rewriting the koran. Well, I was skeptical about that since mohammed told them that the reason why his stories in the koran and our Bible does not agree is because WE rewrote the Bible and WE will be the ones condemned to hades. And he directed his followers not to change the words from him, or else they would be condemned.

so, who is this rewritten koran for? Us? or them? Now, I figured it would be for us since they need to make sure we don’t know what their koran says because many of us are figuring out what islam is all about through the koran. Well, we would be blind as to now know also through their own words and deeds too - but we would be confused if we read a koran that was rewritten for us alone.

We can wish all we want but when the pedal hits the metal - we got to wake up and realize the reality of the situation and what we have in our own shores. And what the world faces in their shores that have allowed muslim immigration. The M.O. is the same for every, single place they migrate to - and it doesn’t bode well for non-muslims in their own lands. Only three types of peace are recognized by muslims - death, conversion or subjugation. No matter what jihadist tactic they use - the end game is still the same.

 

[inJESUS]

Thank you Michael for the links…i did not know of the 800 matyrs…

 

[R_not]

Muslims, how can this be proper/

I got this quote: Ishaq 587
“Our onslaught will not be a weak faltering affair. We shall fight as long as we live. We will fight until you turn to Islam, humbly seeking refuge. We will fight not caring whom we meet. We will fight whether we destroy ancient holdings or newly gotten gains. We have mutilated every opponent. We have driven them violently before us at the command of Allah and Islam. We will fight until our religion is established. And we will plunder them, for they must suffer disgrace.”

I like to keep bookmarks of hadith and verses in various folders(40 folders), classified by subject.
Here’s some of them.
racism
jews
jihad
lying
slavery
apostasy
terror
booty
violence - treatment of dhimmi’s
I wouldn’t even know where to classify that Ishaq quotation. Its got terror, jihad, forced conversion, mutilation and booty. All rolled into one.

 

[R_not]

Muslims, how can this be proper?

islameyat.com/dispatches_undercover_mosque.htm

 

[R_not]

Muslims, how can this be proper? (yes, I know the muslims have fled - I know they won’t answer - but I will post because maybe we will see more of what some of the problems we face are:

jihadwatch.org/archives/021644.php

That is just New York - we already know something is going on in the L.A. mosques since they are screaming foul because the cops down there want to profile muslims. CAIR and the ACLU are fighting this - gee, where is the ACLU when our tax payer money goes to putting in toilets facing Mecca, or segregation, etc?

 

[Postmodern]

Muslims, how can this be proper? (yes, I know the muslims have fled - I know they won’t answer - but I will post because maybe we will see more of what some of the problems we face are:

jihadwatch.org/archives/021644.php

That is just New York - we already know something is going on in the L.A. mosques since they are screaming foul because the cops down there want to profile muslims. CAIR and the ACLU are fighting this - gee, where is the ACLU when our tax payer money goes to putting in toilets facing Mecca, or segregation, etc?

JihadWatch very conveniently crops off the article, focusing solely on religious motivations. It leaves out the fact that many turned to radicalism after seeing condition of family under US supported regimes.

JihadWatch also fails to mention that the detective himself is a Muslim.

 

[jedi]

R_Not:

And speaking of the Crusades, after 1076, Muslims effectively closed Jerusalem and the Holy Land to Pilgrimages by Christians, at the same time, Muslim armies threated the Byzantine Empire and Constantinople. Against that backdrop, Pope Urban II called the 1st Crusade in 1095.

And before we get too far into this, I believe what the Pasha Ahmed did to these men who refused to submit to Islam should be admitted to any record that includes complaints about the Crusades:

EIGHT HUNDRED MEN AND MARTYRS OF OTRANTO
Men who knew how to die well — and so saved Rome
theroadtoemmaus.org/RdLb/21PbAr/Hst/Otranto800Mrtyrs.htm

The Pope’s challenge to Islam
theroadtoemmaus.org/RdLb/31JdXn/Christnty/Denom/PopeVsIslmTxt.htm

Here’s a link to the type of self-reflection I’m talking about:
Reflections on Islam
members.chello.nl/a.wichmann/islam.html#JIHAD

When Muslims refuse to reform Islam, when you refuse to deal with stuff like the questions in my previous post, you force those you attack to “take out your garbage”, and then create a situation where you’re bound to complain about it have it used by evil men on both sides as excuses for real attrocites.

I’m begging Muslims to do better, because right now, the problem with the coexist sticker is the crescent shaped moon, and that’s a terrible thing. If what they want is want is coexistence and not submission, they need to show it.

Jews being able to walk through Paris while wearing the Star of David and the Kippa and Christians living in Saudi Arabia carrying Bibles and wearing crosses would be a good start.

We allow the Saudis to build Mosques here - I don’t see why Catholics can’t say Mass in Saudi Arabia or Jews can’t even visit many Arab Muslim countries.

Your Brother in Christ, Michael

Hello Michael, TQ for your sharing. e’rybody know muslime is selfish, they want to conquer the world. but the problem is Catholic it self. catholic open the door to them, let them come in, welcome them as real brother and sister. and some catholic even convert to their religion like father and son, shoulder to shoulder. But unlike the arab muslim countries, as you mentioned. they didn’t open the door to catholic, they are doing No Fair Play policy. Is the how they control the war. i come build mosque in your place but you can’t build churches in my place. So, who is the winner here, no doubt the arab world… they are the winner… in the end, western country eat s*** because they are stupid…

God please bless Pope Ben16, for he who bring back the tradition to us… TQ…

 

[R_not]

JihadWatch very conveniently crops off the article, focusing solely on religious motivations. It leaves out the fact that many turned to radicalism after seeing condition of family under US supported regimes.

JihadWatch also fails to mention that the detective himself is a Muslim.

The usual stuff - you don’t like the message so you denigrate the messenger. So what if the detective is a muslim?! isn’t that what we are hoping for?! That there are muslims sick and tired of the violence???!

It isn’t the religion aspect of islam that is the problem - it is the political aspect of it. The imperialistic aims of it while only seeing peace with us in one of three ways - death, conversion or subjugation. Unfortunately, the two are intertwined so thoruoughly that it is impossible to separate the two - the religious and the political.

And as usual - deflect so they ignore the questions as to how can they be proper!

 

[R_not]

I just got this from a chapter I belong to:

The OIC, the Organization of the Islamic Conference has put forth a proposal at the United Nations that the spreading of Christianty be an international crime.

Muslims, how can this be proper?

 

[Verisimilitude]

I just got this from a chapter I belong to:

The OIC, the Organization of the Islamic Conference has put forth a proposal at the United Nations that the spreading of Christianty be an international crime.

Muslims, how can this be proper?

The OIC didn’t like the Universal Declaration of Human Rights (UDHR) and made their own; Universal Islamic Declaration of Human Rights (UIDHR). It leaves out the part about having the freedom to change, or leave ones religion.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

planten;3877448:

Then this is not true of what the Quran states?

Qu’ran – allows its followers to Lie and deceive as a virtue of Islam

Taqiyya = lying against unbelievers is a virtue and a religious duty according to the Qu’ran, Haddith (tradition), Islamic Law

Qu’ran

Sura 16:106 Establishes that there are circumstances that can “compel” a Muslim to tell a lie

The above is a part of the post by Gabriel, post #48. What is written is not true at all. I will refer to the verse only to prove that the information given is not true. There is no allowance to tell any lie. Pleasee the verses below:

Ok, now you got me confused one Muslim states it is justifiable to lie, and he lists the three occasions for Muslims to lie. And now you state "There is no allowance to tell any Lie. What I have posted is not mine, but comes from sources from the Quran. I dont know who to trust or believe. Can you straighten out this quote and what the other Muslim states; the 3 reason for a Muslim to Lie?

There is no allowance for the muslims to tell a lie whenever they like. If I am wrong then please tell me and I will come back with some other news for you.

True there is no allowance for the Muslims to tell a lie whenever they like, BUT only when the Quran says it is ok to Lie, is this not correct?

Planten, how am I to believe anything you say is true? When your highest authority allows for deception against your enemies? If you consider me your enemy? how can you prove what ever you say is true, when your allowed to decieve, without being in sin.

Secondly, why is it that the Quran has military tactics (such as decieving the enemy) mixed with religious overtones? Is Islam truly a militant religion that uses military force to convert the weak? And kills those Muslims who wish to live a life of love and peace in Christianity? Please do not take these precieved concepts that are only taken by the examples Muslims leave and have taught by example.

Does Islam the religion itself has a military?

Catholicism does not have a military only her faith.

Peace be with you

 

[Sister_Amy]

Gabriel, the answer is that Islam is not just a “religion.”

It is a complete way of life, for the individual, for the family, and for the society. Societies have laws, societies have militias, and Islam has rules for entire societies.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Gabriel, the answer is that Islam is not just a “religion.”

It is a complete way of life, for the individual, for the family, and for the society. Societies have laws, societies have militias, and Islam has rules for entire societies.

So I am to understand then the Quran dictates the way of life for the Muslim? Including its government societies, militaries, as well as the families?

The only christian rule that dictates governments are the 10 commandments. In most democratic societies, there exists a barrier between Religion and State. This is not the case for all of Islam? The religion and state are both one?

So Islam can excercise military force because the Quran justifies and encourages Muslims to do so, even if not provoked?

Catholicism only has a defense mechanism in place; If my life is threatened or my family, I have the right to defend my family. But Catholicism does not teach us to hate our enemies, it teaches us to love our enemies.

thanks for you comment, it is helpful, And I have a great respect for the Muslim peaceful way of life.

Peace be with you

 

[Sister_Amy]

So I am to understand then the Quran dictates the way of life for the Muslim? Including its government societies, militaries, as well as the families?

Yes.

The only christian rule that dictates governments are the 10 commandments.

That of course is not true. The 10 Commandments do not dictate governments. Nor are governments bound to abide by them (they often don’t). Nor do the governments impose the 10 commandments on the people.

In most democratic societies, there exists a barrier between Religion and State. This is not the case for all of Islam? The religion and state are both one?

Religion is not the same thing as a state. But the way of life called Islam, complete submission to God, includes societal regulation.

So Islam can excercise military force because the Quran justifies and encourages Muslims to do so, even if not provoked?

Islam is not a sentient entity, it is a state of submission to God. An act. It is not a government. But the law of Islam exists to be applied to an entire society, not just to individuals. A sovereign society can exercise military force if necessary. If a sovereign society is operating under Islam, or in a state of submission to God, then it still can exercise military force if necessary. In fact, a state is required to exercise military force–vigilantism is actually not allowed by Islamic law.

Catholicism only has a defense mechanism in place; If my life is threatened or my family, I have the right to defend my family. But Catholicism does not teach us to hate our enemies, it teaches us to love our enemies.

Islam is no different. If an individual is attacked, he may defend himself, his family. If a society is attacked, it also has the right to defend its people. Islam teaches that all of mankind is a single brotherhood, a single tribe, the children of Adam.

thanks for you comment, it is helpful, And I have a great respect for the Muslim peaceful way of life.

Thank you for reading it.

Peace be with you

And with you.

 

[Verisimilitude]

Islam teaches that all of mankind is a single brotherhood, a single tribe, the children of Adam.

Where do you get that, Amy? I know Mohammed said a Muslim is a brother to another Muslim, but I don’t know where he said a Muslim is a brother to a non-Muslim.

 

[rpp]

Where do you get that, Amy? I know Mohammed said a Muslim is a brother to another Muslim, but I don’t know where he said a Muslim is a brother to a non-Muslim.

Umm… Have you read the rest of the thread? Your answer lies there.

 

[Sister_Amy]

Where do you get that, Amy? I know Mohammed said a Muslim is a brother to another Muslim, but I don’t know where he said a Muslim is a brother to a non-Muslim.

I just finished listening to a lecture series by Hamza Yusuf doing a tour of the UK, and it’s something he mentioned actually several times. And that’s not the first time I’ve heard it.

There’s an article where this is mentioned, written by a prominent Sheikh 'Abdullah bin Bayyah…

*An old Arab saying – which is found in one form or another in all languages – goes: “Treat others the way that you wish to be treated.”

Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said in the hadîth: “No one truly believes until he wants for his brother what he wants for himself.”

The value of “human brotherhood” is being joined with that of “love” in these words of our Prophet (peace be upon him). Before somebody accuses me of reinterpreting this hadîth for my own purposes, they should know that this is the understanding of the scholars from centuries back.

For instance, the leading Hanbalî jurist, Ibn Rajab said: “The brotherhood referred to in this hadîth is the brotherhood of humanity.” [Sharh al-Arbaîn al-Nawawiyyah]

The same is asserted by al-Shabrakhîtî and many others.

Love is an essential value, since all people desire to be loved. It is extremely rare to find a person who desires to be despised by others.*

I encourage you to read the article because it explains the Islamic position very clearly, and why humanity is a shared brotherhood.

 

[R_not]

Yes.

That of course is not true. The 10 Commandments do not dictate governments. Nor are governments bound to abide by them (they often don’t). Nor do the governments impose the 10 commandments on the people.

Religion is not the same thing as a state. But the way of life called Islam, complete submission to God, includes societal regulation.

Islam is not a sentient entity, it is a state of submission to God. An act. It is not a government. But the law of Islam exists to be applied to an entire society, not just to individuals. A sovereign society can exercise military force if necessary. If a sovereign society is operating under Islam, or in a state of submission to God, then it still can exercise military force if necessary. In fact, a state is required to exercise military force–vigilantism is actually not allowed by Islamic law.

Islam is no different. If an individual is attacked, he may defend himself, his family. If a society is attacked, it also has the right to defend its people. Islam teaches that all of mankind is a single brotherhood, a single tribe, the children of Adam.

Thank you for reading it.

And with you.

What we see is that the view of life according to muslims is that WE must submit to it also - and so this is why THEY justify attacking others. It is this idea of definitions for words. We have one definition and muslims have another - and we are the ones confused by it because we haven’t, as a whole, recognized the deception behind these words. (I named them in other threads - peace, innocent, peace treaty, now it seems sister amy is adding ‘brother’ to it. No, muslims do not even consider infidels equal to them much less their ‘brothers’. I suppose - unless they think that us pigs, dogs, feces, etc are ‘brothers’. sort of the twisted logic that goes on here.

This folks, is the deception of da’wa. I have asked a lot of questions on some different posts in this thread - and notice the complete ignoring of them. Especially the one with their own imams, or clerics, preaching against us and then telling the leaders a complete falsehood as to what has gone on.

I have no idea how someone can be raised with the way we think and actually think that we are to fall for the deception if we know what their koran preaches.

And sharia law is based on the koran and hadiths. Our Western governments are based on the Judeo-Christian 10 commandments - which are far superior. It is what allows muslims the freedom to practice da’wa in our countries until they establish sharia law - and then it will all come crashing down around us because sharia law is the complete opposite of what we know. We won’t have any rights since infidels do not have the same rights - no matter how much sister amy, or others, want to deceive us as to what sharia law is all about.

Here is an article about sharia law from a very, courageous man - an ex-muslim. Anyone who leaves islam can be considered courageous to me since it is a death sentence on them if they are caught by any muslim on this earth:
frontpagemag.com/Articles/Read.aspx?GUID=8AD3D2F1-FD2C-4E78-B233-2F97FCF97B94

 

[R_not]

that article about shared brotherhood is very misleading. If we all get all comfy and cozy and think that islam has our best interest at heart and is not a threat - we will be in for a lot of trouble because the end product is the same for us. that article is da’wa at its finest.

No muslim country that I know of gives equal ‘brotherhood’ to any non-muslim. Why don’t you guys put your energy into changing the way muslims think and do things - then I would be more inclined to believe you if there was more of that being done within your own.

Until then - I don’t believe a word of it. It is just more da’wa - or deception.

 

[inJESUS]

Amy, your link is beautiful in the general sense …“Treat others the way that you wish to be treated.”…these are Jesus’ words…yet Jesus did not tell us to subdue others and make them pay in humiliation as dhimmi when teaching about “love”…the Bible does not call Muslims “unbelievers who will end up in hell” as the Quran says about Christians…Jesus did not curse Jews and Christians on the cross like Muhammad did before his death…Jesus ddid not expel Jews like Muhammad did to Jews and Christians…Jesus did not kill those who mocked him like Muhammad did…Jesus did not ask His disciples to conquer other lands with the sword in the name of love…and Muslims who have this attitude did not read Jesus’ words nor are they following His example but are following Muhammad…so the all-loving attitude of your link hardly corresponds with the above facts…though i wish reality were as such.