Muslims, how much time to pray 4 Raka'ah ?

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Perhaps your company should contact Saudi Aramco to find out how they manage to run this multi-billion dollar industry while accommodating the prayer needs of its employees. The oil industry is a 24 hour a day, non-stop operation. I do know that they reduce working hours during Ramadan to accommodate fasting workers. They only work 4 hours shifts during Ramadan. This was mainly a safety precaution since the fasting workers were prone to fainting.
Most companies in predominantly Muslim countries reduce working hours during Ramadan. This isn’t necessary… in fact, it makes people think that Muslims are lazy. Here in the USA Muslims go to school and work just like every day out of the year–just without taking lunch.

As far as the prayer–in Saudi Arabia and other Muslim countries, it’s common for all businesses to shut down at the prayer time. I know in Saudia EVERYONE shuts down. Nobody works. The whole city will stop, go pray, and then return to the business. If everyone is praying, then nobody is inconvenienced. I’ve heard that in Saudi too they’ll just cover their merchandise with a blanket, not worry about theft. It’s not a big deal, nothing to whine about.
I don’t recall what the oil workers did, but the other workers, such as gardeners, would stop whatever they were doing, spread out their mats and pray when they heard the call to prayer.
Perhaps they prayed in shifts.
If companies allow prayer breaks for one section of their workforce, they need to allow breaks of equal time to all their employees. I think this is where companies are balking since they see it as lost-time. They are paying workers to take breaks, when they want them working productively and that hits their bottom line. It is not so much anti-prayer as anti-profit loss.
Frankly, a 15 minute break is not too much to ask in my opinion. As I mentioned before, my employer gives two 15 minute breaks to EVERY employee. Most people take a nap, or go for a walk. I pray. 👍 The reason my employer gives everyone these breaks is not to accommodate Muslims, but because the break refreshes the entire workforce and increases productivity.

There is very little profit-loss associated with something like a prayer break. It will happen once, maaaayyyybe twice during the average person’s work day. And if you need someone to work 8 hours straight without any breaks then I would suggest a union get involved…
 
Putting the words in my mouth… good start…:rolleyes:
This is how we are taught to pray:

So, as you can see, this points out 2 things, it teaches us HOW to pray CORRECTLY and secondly, it kills your accusation of me not wanting people to pray.
Well you are the one who doesn’t want Muslims to pray. You’re the one who has the problem then, not me.
I dont care what the quran says, its made up by a man called Muhammed. 😉
How very disrespectful.
Well again, i will tell you, i dont care what the quran says and secondly, time on this earth and time in heaven are different, God has not instructed us to pray to him on certain times a day, as long as we do pray, and pray with all our heart, that is what he expect of us.
Once again, very disrespectful. Also, let me remind you that you are not in heaven, you are on earth. God did instruct us to pray at certain times of the day.

There is a tradition of praying three times a day in Judaism–perhaps you’re not aware of that. But there is a specific morning, evening, and afternoon prayer.

God told Muslims 5 times a day. (Actually 50, but it was reduced to 5… long story.) Just because you say otherwise doesn’t change the truth.
God is with me and in my thoughts day and night, everytime i have something to eat on my break i always give him thanks and pray before each meal, so you see, we pray quite often, even moreso then muslims do. 😉
Fascinating, how you’ve not been able to comprehend the idea of a Muslim prayer after all this time. First of all, God is with me and in my thoughts day, and night. Everytime I sit, come home, leave the home, greet another Muslim, everytime I eat, go to bed or get up, visit the mosque, talk to my friends, etc., etc., etc., So you see we pray quite often, moreso than you’re aware. The five daily prayers? Something else entirely.
…you know God is number 1 in my life. And he understands praying around work time and in my breaks is just as beneficial… God knows i will pray to him in my free time… He knows we work and doesnt expect me to drop everything in a moments notice… he is first in my life… and i give more time to him when i know im not on the clock…
Oh? So you just fit God into your schedule when it’s convenient for you? Rather than fit your schedule around Him. So your schedule and work take priority over God. It’s okay, you can just admit that.
As i stated earlier, Christians pray more than Muslims, i get up in the morning and pray, i pray before i eat, i pray when im going to work, and coming home and i pray at night… thats more than 5 times a day. And not only that, i go to church every week, and sometimes even more, now hows that for worshipping the maker 😉
Trust me, Muslims pray all those times plus more, more, more. The five daily prayers? A different kind of prayer (which is physical and spiritual) at least five times is in addition to all that. Plus I as a Muslim go to the mosque at least every week. But I try to go every day–sometimes more than once a day.
 
You’re talking about you, but what if there’s several other Muslims taking off at the same time to perform their ablutions and so on and there aren’t enough sinks for all? What about if anyone passes wind? They have to wash all over again! That so-called 15 minutes could take a whole lot longer.

Vickie
I went really slow. I can perform the whole thing in less time than that, ok? Sharing sinks isn’t a big deal. Trust me, at the mosque there aren’t a ton of sinks but yet everyone manages to get themselves washed. Seriously. This wouldn’t be a problem unless you choose to make it one.
 
God is not a tyrant or irrational! There are set times for prayer in the monastic life as well and they’re beautiful and harmonious in that environment, but lay people are not bound by those rules for obvious reasons.
A Muslim’s life is not monastic. There are no Muslim monateries. The faith is accessible for everyone. Every Muslim has the opportunity to communicate directly with his Creator at set times during the day, so he keeps himself on the right path and away from sin.
Of course we wash our hands before we eat and when we go to the bathroom! Those are just the rules of hygiene. Washing the face and feet and so on and applying makeup are done at home, not at the office!
I’ve seen people brush their teeth, apply make-up, and wash their clothes in office bathrooms. No big deal. Seriously, you’re making a big hullaballoo about nothing. Washing the face is part of hygiene, and so is washing the feet. Think of all those people with smelly feet… if only they’d wash their feet!
That’s fine if you can work your prayers into your breaks and so on! But where there’s an inflexible prayer schedule in a secular environment, there’s bound to be clashes sooner or later. I never hear of anyone else causing the problems except Muslims.
Why do you think that is? Muslims have been branded public enemy #1. If they want a sink installed people flip their lid. But first of all, there should not such thing as a “secular” environment. People shouldn’t have to check their religion at the door, and pretend that they aren’t religious. If an environment is truly tolerant and pluralistic then it should be accommodating. The prayers all have a certain range during which they can be prayed, from about an hour to sometimes 5 hours in the summer time. (I can pray dhuhr these days anywhere from 1:35 until past 6pm!)
Do you conider it suitable for a Muslim bus driver to stop the bus and tell the passengers to get out, so he can pray?
Maybe. If he is in a Muslim country, and his passengers are Muslim, I think it’s pretty much expected that they’d all go to the nearest mosque or just get off the bus and pray. This is what happens in some places. Or if the bus driver is a charter bus driver driving a bus full of Muslims. If he is NOT in a Muslim country and the bus schedule is very strict, then I think that the job of a bus driver would not be appropriate for a Muslim to take, so he doesn’t have to worry about missing his prayers.
 
That is the best practice, no harm, no loss to any one. It is better not to make a machine out of a human being. The Muslim may start work at about 8 or 9 a.m. A few minutes break at 11 a.m. Then again at 1 p.m. may be suitable time for the lunch break. Prayer can be performed during that break.

I am happy to read the above post in which the employers look after the Interest of the workers. I remember my boss (officer, Mr. Holding, in England) asking me about the Feast of Ramadhan. He had heard that the month of Ramafhan had started and there were a few Muslims around. So he called me and asked me “What is this feast of Ramadhan?”

I replied “Sir, there is no feast. But there is fast. It is the month of fasting.” He took more details from me about our fasting and finally allowed all my friends to have the keys of the cookery and dining room. So that we could eat/drink what we liked (at about 9 p.m.) There was hell of a lot of food there, milk, eggs, corn flakes, cakes, bread…

After the first day, we (8 of us) prepared breakfast and lunch and tea and supper and each one had to sit on separate tables because there were too many plates. In the evening, the assistance to Mr. Holding came for a visit just to see. His name was Pointing. He sat at my table and kept on smoking before my breakfast time. He looked at my food and asked me “Are you going to eat all that?” I said “Sir, you wait and see.”

The British boys aksed us to bring some food for them too. But we did not comply. We did not take food out of the dining room. In all other matters too, we found the british system was excellent. For many years, never I had to tell a lie to any one (superior officers) and never was i troubled for anything. I followed my religion and I was not disturbed.
I also used to participate happily in all the yearly christian functions such as New Year celebrations and Christmas etc. I never drank (alcohol) and never had to eat pork etc. Thanks to the British system and British people. (That goes for their good principles of religion too).
 
There are federal guidelines but they are pretty vague. Like “reasonable accommodations” should be made as long as it is not “undue hardship” on the employer. For me, reasonable accommodations means taking the 15 minutes out of my hour-long lunch, and the 15 minute break that every employee gets, and throwing a rug down in my own cubicle (not taking up another room). I also clean up any water I might spill in the bathroom. I pray alone–the Muslims I work with… ehhhhh dunno about them.

There are some companies with larger numbers of Muslims, that have a designated prayer room that might be used by a larger group. If you have 50 employees that might be using the space at a 300-worker plant then it might be worthwhile. I take regular vacation or unpaid time for holidays that I celebrate which aren’t part of the state holiday schedule. I find all that to be reasonably accommodating. I also take long lunches on Fridays to go to the Friday mosque services sometimes, but I either make up the time or don’t charge for it. The employer does not have to make special accommodations just for me or any Muslim, but I can take advantage of the same opportunities which are available for all employees.

Here is the US EEOC site on religious discrimination and what employers should do: eeoc.gov/types/religion.html
 
Well you are the one who doesn’t want Muslims to pray. You’re the one who has the problem then, not me.
Don’t be melodramatic! Ellen never said anything of the sort
How very disrespectful.

Once again, very disrespectful. Also, let me remind you that you are not in heaven, you are on earth. God did instruct us to pray at certain times of the day.
We’ll have to agree to disagree on that one.
There is a tradition of praying three times a day in Judaism–perhaps you’re not aware of that. But there is a specific morning, evening, and afternoon prayer.
And yet Jews are not causing any problems at the workplace.
God told Muslims 5 times a day. (Actually 50, but it was reduced to 5… long story.) Just because you say otherwise doesn’t change the truth.
And Muhammad saved the day by talking God into limiting the prayers to 5 times a day. :rolleyes: Can you actually believe that God is so tyrannical and irrational as to actually have expected people to pray 50 times a day? You’ve got to be kidding!
Fascinating, how you’ve not been able to comprehend the idea of a Muslim prayer after all this time. First of all, God is with me and in my thoughts day, and night. Everytime I sit, come home, leave the home, greet another Muslim, everytime I eat, go to bed or get up, visit the mosque, talk to my friends, etc., etc., etc., So you see we pray quite often, moreso than you’re aware. The five daily prayers? Something else entirely.

Oh? So you just fit God into your schedule when it’s convenient for you? Rather than fit your schedule around Him. So your schedule and work take priority over God. It’s okay, you can just admit that.
Work is part of life Amy, and there’s a time and a place for everything! A person can pray while working without anyone else being aware of it.

Vickie
 
Don’t be melodramatic! Ellen never said anything of the sort
Let me ask you then–do you think that Muslims should stop praying at certain times of the day?
And yet Jews are not causing any problems at the workplace.
Very few observe this tradition.
And Muhammad saved the day by talking God into limiting the prayers to 5 times a day. :rolleyes: Can you actually believe that God is so tyrannical and irrational as to actually have expected people to pray 50 times a day? You’ve got to be kidding!
Hmm… no. Muhammad did not “talk Him (SWT) into” reducing the number of prayers. It wasn’t a bargain. It was a mercy. I don’t expect you to understand. But it was Moses who told Muhammad that 50 times was too much, Muhammad was shy to ask for reduction but he did… and went back to Moses who still said it was too much… and so on until it was reduced to 5 and Moses said that his people couldn’t even keep up the number they had been told to keep (3) and thought five was too much. But after all this mercy from God, Muhammad was shy to ask for more. But Muslims get the reward of 50 for praying 5… can’t beat that!
Work is part of life Amy, and there’s a time and a place for everything! A person can pray while working without anyone else being aware of it.

Vickie
Nobody would be aware of my prayer unless they walk by while I’m engaged in it. There is a time and a place for work. But there is should always be time for God. If I am working, then I am not fully focused on my prayer.

Think of this prayer as a conference call: two-way communication. If you boss told you that he wanted to check on you during the day, would you say you’re too busy?

There have to be priorities. And if God is first, then give Him His time. Make time for Him, even if you have to take a break at work so you can get rid of all the distractions and spend several minutes just talking (and listening) to God.
 
Yes, you are right. And you are doing well being careful and noting everything very well. I learnt a lot from the British instructors. If I tell, it would be a long interesting story. But thanks to them all. They were all very good.
 
A Muslim’s life is not monastic. There are no Muslim monateries. The faith is accessible for everyone. Every Muslim has the opportunity to communicate directly with his Creator at set times during the day, so he keeps himself on the right path and away from sin.
The set prayer times are like monastic life. Our faith is accessible to everyone as well!
I’ve seen people brush their teeth, apply make-up, and wash their clothes in office bathrooms. No big deal. Seriously, you’re making a big hullaballoo about nothing. Washing the face is part of hygiene, and so is washing the feet. Think of all those people with smelly feet… if only they’d wash their feet
This is so ridiculous! If people wash before they go to work, they won’t have smelly feet! :rolleyes:
Why do you think that is? Muslims have been branded public enemy #1. If they want a sink installed people flip their lid. But first of all, there should not such thing as a “secular” environment. People shouldn’t have to check their religion at the door, and pretend that they aren’t religious. If an environment is truly tolerant and pluralistic then it should be accommodating. The prayers all have a certain range during which they can be prayed, from about an hour to sometimes 5 hours in the summer time. (I can pray dhuhr these days anywhere from 1:35 until past 6pm!)
Oh yes, no separation between church and state in Islam which is a political ideology as well!
Maybe. If he is in a Muslim country, and his passengers are Muslim, I think it’s pretty much expected that they’d all go to the nearest mosque or just get off the bus and pray. This is what happens in some places. Or if the bus driver is a charter bus driver driving a bus full of Muslims. If he is NOT in a Muslim country and the bus schedule is very strict, then I think that the job of a bus driver would not be appropriate for a Muslim to take, so he doesn’t have to worry about missing his prayers.
This happened in England.

Vickie
 
It would appear that Booklover Vickie. Thinks more about a smooth and efficient place of work than the values and needs of employees.

“You’ll want all day to-morrow, I suppose?” said
Scrooge.

“If quite convenient, sir.”

“It’s not convenient,” said Scrooge, “and it’s not
fair. If I was to stop half-a-crown for it, you’d
think yourself ill-used, I’ll be bound?”

The clerk smiled faintly.

“And yet,” said Scrooge, “you don’t think me ill-used,
when I pay a day’s wages for no work.”

The clerk observed that it was only once a year.

“A poor excuse for picking a man’s pocket every
twenty-fifth of December!” said Scrooge, buttoning
his great-coat to the chin. “But I suppose you must
have the whole day. Be here all the earlier next
morning.”

Vickie, you seem to think that having off on Sunday is not the same. What about breaks and lunch breaks? Perhaps this is more equivalent.
To be perfectly honest, it appears to me that you want discriminatory practices not because of work place efficiency but because they are discriminatory. I might remind you that as a Catholic we are in a minority in this country and discriminatory practices could be used against us if we abandon the principle of freedom of religious practice.
Look at what is happening in Canada with their human rights tribunals.

God Bless You,
Jim
 
Most companies in predominantly Muslim countries reduce working hours during Ramadan. This isn’t necessary… in fact, it makes people think that Muslims are lazy. Here in the USA Muslims go to school and work just like every day out of the year–just without taking lunch.

As far as the prayer–in Saudi Arabia and other Muslim countries, it’s common for all businesses to shut down at the prayer time. I know in Saudia EVERYONE shuts down. Nobody works. The whole city will stop, go pray, and then return to the business. If everyone is praying, then nobody is inconvenienced. I’ve heard that in Saudi too they’ll just cover their merchandise with a blanket, not worry about theft. It’s not a big deal, nothing to whine about.
You posted this earlier:

“Why do I have to take off on Christmas, though? I get paid hourly, and I don’t celebrate it, why can’t I come in and work, and get paid? Because everyone else is taking the day off. Trust me, taking the day off affects momentum MAJORLY.”

Pretty hypocritical wouldn’t you say?
Frankly, a 15 minute break is not too much to ask in my opinion. As I mentioned before, my employer gives two 15 minute breaks to EVERY employee. Most people take a nap, or go for a walk. I pray. 👍 The reason my employer gives everyone these breaks is not to accommodate Muslims, but because the break refreshes the entire workforce and increases productivity.

There is very little profit-loss associated with something like a prayer break. It will happen once, maaaayyyybe twice during the average person’s work day. And if you need someone to work 8 hours straight without any breaks then I would suggest a union get involved…
Why are Islamic countries some of the most backward on the planet?

Vickie
 
It would appear that Booklover Vickie. Thinks more about a smooth and efficient place of work than the values and needs of employees.

“You’ll want all day to-morrow, I suppose?” said
Scrooge.

“If quite convenient, sir.”

“It’s not convenient,” said Scrooge, “and it’s not
fair. If I was to stop half-a-crown for it, you’d
think yourself ill-used, I’ll be bound?”

The clerk smiled faintly.

“And yet,” said Scrooge, “you don’t think me ill-used,
when I pay a day’s wages for no work.”

The clerk observed that it was only once a year.

“A poor excuse for picking a man’s pocket every
twenty-fifth of December!” said Scrooge, buttoning
his great-coat to the chin. “But I suppose you must
have the whole day. Be here all the earlier next
morning.”

Vickie, you seem to think that having off on Sunday is not the same. What about breaks and lunch breaks? Perhaps this is more equivalent.
To be perfectly honest, it appears to me that you want discriminatory practices not because of work place efficiency but because they are discriminatory. I might remind you that as a Catholic we are in a minority in this country and discriminatory practices could be used against us if we abandon the principle of freedom of religious practice.
Look at what is happening in Canada with their human rights tribunals.

God Bless You,
Jim
I mean doing it in their own time, as you say lunch and breaks!

As for Canada, they’re on their way to losing their freedom of speech since it’s practically considered a hate crime to criticize Islam!

If we keep giving in to the never ending demands of Muslims, it’s we who are going to end up losing all our freedoms one day. Bah humbug!

Vickie
 
Let me ask you then–do you think that Muslims should stop praying at certain times of the day?
Matthew 6
5 **"When you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, who love to stand and pray in the synagogues and on street corners so that others may see them. Amen, I say to you, they have received their reward. ****6 **But when you pray, go to your inner room, close the door, and pray to your Father in secret. And your Father who sees in secret will repay you. 7 3 4 In praying, do not babble like the pagans, who think that they will be heard because of their many words. 8 Do not be like them. Your Father knows what you need before you ask him. 9 5 6 "This is how you are to pray: Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name, 10 your kingdom come, 7 your will be done, on earth as in heaven. 11 8 Give us today our daily bread; 12 and forgive us our debts, 9 as we forgive our debtors; 13 and do not subject us to the final test, 10 but deliver us from the evil one. 14 11 If you forgive others their transgressions, your heavenly Father will forgive you. 15 But if you do not forgive others, neither will your Father forgive your transgressions.
Hmm… no. Muhammad did not “talk Him (SWT) into” reducing the number of prayers. It wasn’t a bargain. It was a mercy. I don’t expect you to understand. But it was Moses who told Muhammad that 50 times was too much, Muhammad was shy to ask for reduction but he did… and went back to Moses who still said it was too much… and so on until it was reduced to 5 and Moses said that his people couldn’t even keep up the number they had been told to keep (3) and thought five was too much. But after all this mercy from God, Muhammad was shy to ask for more. But Muslims get the reward of 50 for praying 5… can’t beat that!
I understand only too well, that’s why I don’t believe that God ever expected those 50 times a day prayer, or that Moses ever spoke to Muhammad or any of this!
 
If someone was a trash man or worked in a sewage treatment plant or cleaning septic tanks, would he be able to pray without a bath?
 
You posted this earlier:

“Why do I have to take off on Christmas, though? I get paid hourly, and I don’t celebrate it, why can’t I come in and work, and get paid? Because everyone else is taking the day off. Trust me, taking the day off affects momentum MAJORLY.”

Pretty hypocritical wouldn’t you say?
So did you actually agree with me? You said taking a day off work doesn’t affect momentum… it does, right? But people still do it. They take off work when they are sick, when they want vacation, when their kids are sick, and thousands of even more trivial reasons. But if it is for GOD? Uh oh…!
Why are Islamic countries some of the most backward on the planet?

Hmm… not sure I know what you mean. You think praying makes people backward? Howso?
 
If someone was a trash man or worked in a sewage treatment plant or cleaning septic tanks, would he be able to pray without a bath?
Sorry Ralph, I didn’t want you to think I was ignoring your question. But I really don’t know the answer to it. Most people who clean septic tanks and have other dirty jobs wear jumpsuits that take all the dirt, anyway, don’t they?

Also, being covered even in sewage doesn’t actually put a person in a state of major ritual impurity requiring full bath. The states which require a full bath are only after intercourse (or wet dream), after menstruation, and after childbirth. And then Muslims are also supposed to take a bath at least once a week, even if they haven’t been menstruating, giving birth, or having sex.

So being covered in sewage doesn’t mandate ritual bath as far as I know. Moreover, the person in that occupation usually wears a jumpsuit, which he could just take off to go pray in.

It wouldn’t be advisable for him to go to the mosque, however, as Muslims are supposed to stay away from the mosque if they smell bad (like if they’ve eaten raw garlic or onions, for example.) So he should just take a shower before that.

I don’t see why he couldn’t pray without a bath, as long as he didn’t have it on his clothes or body–could change clothes if they were dirty. But if it were me? I’d rather take at least a quick shower.
 
Sorry Ralph, I didn’t want you to think I was ignoring your question. But I really don’t know the answer to it. Most people who clean septic tanks and have other dirty jobs wear jumpsuits that take all the dirt, anyway, don’t they?
True enough, but that would add more time off the clock, wouldn’t it?
Also, being covered even in sewage doesn’t actually put a person in a state of major ritual impurity requiring full bath. The states which require a full bath are only after intercourse (or wet dream), after menstruation, and after childbirth. And then Muslims are also supposed to take a bath at least once a week, even if they haven’t been menstruating, giving birth, or having sex.
So being covered in sewage doesn’t mandate ritual bath as far as I know. Moreover, the person in that occupation usually wears a jumpsuit, which he could just take off to go pray in.
Good. That helps me understand the whole thing better.
It wouldn’t be advisable for him to go to the mosque, however, as Muslims are supposed to stay away from the mosque if they smell bad (like if they’ve eaten raw garlic or onions, for example.) So he should just take a shower before that.
I don’t see why he couldn’t pray without a bath, as long as he didn’t have it on his clothes or body–could change clothes if they were dirty. But if it were me? I’d rather take at least a quick shower.
I am glad that people who smell bad are told to stay away. That is a good thing, as people don’t always have sense enough.

The whole thing about being ritually clean or not, to a Christian, is strange. Jesus said that it is what comes out of your heart that makes you pure, not what goes into your mouth. That applies to on your body as well.
 
I am glad that people who smell bad are told to stay away. That is a good thing, as people don’t always have sense enough.
Indeed. In fact, I know someone who actually knows this–that she shouldn’t go the mosque after eating raw garlic. And she eats a LOT of raw garlic for medicinal purposes and I’ve got to admit, praying beside her is really rough sometimes.
The whole thing about being ritually clean or not, to a Christian, is strange. Jesus said that it is what comes out of your heart that makes you pure, not what goes into your mouth. That applies to on your body as well.
This is a sahih (authentic) hadith: Narrated Abu Huraira:

The Prophet came across me in one of the streets of Medina and at that time I was Junub. So I slipped away from him and went to take a bath. On my return the Prophet said, “O Abu Huraira! Where have you been?” I replied, “I was Junub, so I disliked to sit in your company.” The Prophet said, “Subhan Allah! A believer never becomes impure.”

Junub is the state after having sexual intercourse, major ritual impurity. So we don’t say that a person is impure, but ritual purification is really important. Eating something not permissible (pork, alcohol) doesn’t (according to most opinions) put them in a state requiring purification. But physical things?

Ritual purification–washing up after going to the bathroom. Washing arms, face, and feet. It kind of makes sense to do this regularly to keep oneself clean, physically. Having to pray 5 times a day just makes the person keep themselves clean all day. It’s also a hygiene issue, if you think about it. But the actual washing, just feeling clean helps a person concentrate on the prayer.
 
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