Muslims, who is Harun?

[meedo]

ARGH!!!

BUT…so is the question:

Did Allah say (or imply by default) that Maryam (Jesus’ mother) is the same person as Maryam, sister to Aaron?

But, as you can see, I did post a link to CE regarding the geneologies.

BACK TO TOPIC. please

1-Mary the Mother of Jesus ( the one referred to by teh verse) is not mary the sister of Aron( moses brother).

2- mary teh motehr of Jesus is from the people of israel and from a noble and religious family. She was addressed as the sister of Aron by the jews in order to show the strong variance between her sin ( as presumed by the jews of that times that she did sinned and thus had jesus) and the noble lineage that she comes from and the religious nature of her family and ancestors.

3- This is not a strange custom in the middle east. If you go to Egypt for example you will find the following customs

If your name is Hassan == you can be called == Abu Ali ( meaning the father of ‘‘Ali’’ . it doesnt matter if you dont have a son called Ali , it is just a title )

If your name is Mahmoud == you can be called == Abu Hanafi

It sort of like in America you have an attachement between the names ‘’ William ‘’ and ‘‘Bill’’

The Quran wasnt wrong adbn Muhammed didnt do a mistake . if you want to believe Islam is false or Muhammed did a mistake etc to start with then my explanation is futile .

Any how , what seems to you as a person of western background is wierd isnt the case in the middle east.

calling sombody by the name of a great religious figure is a way to bring his attention to the situation that he is in and how it is in contradiction with the good name of that specific religious figure .

I hope i made things clear . At least for the sincerely searching for truth.

best regards,

Meedo

 

[meedo]

that is digression. What matters is that "son of " denotes physical or spirirual descendant, unlike “sister of” .

Thats your opinion. Not a fact . The discussion is clearly going silly here . The point is that there is metaphor that is bieng used . In both cases. To accept one and reject the other selectively just for teh sake fo proving the other wrong is below childish .

 

[meedo]

Yes, it seems that it would have made much more sense for Allah to say “daughter of Aaron” instead of “sister of Aaron”.

Allah would have known that this issue would come up. After all, Aaron did, in fact, have a biological sister named Miriam. The resulting confusion for Christians should have been anticipated by Allah.

Christians who dont have a an axe to fgrind to begin with will understand the metaphor. And many do .

And i beg to differ. There was a point for selecting the term ‘’ sister of Aron’’ As both the sister of Aron and the mother of jesus had the same name , thus giving her a strong reminder as she bore the namke of teh sister of a great man and a prophet of God.

best regards,

 

[Sam_777]

Is Harun in 19:28 the same person as the Harun in 20:30?

In this Quran tafseer, their is one hadith where Aisha (Muhammed’s wife) confirms that they are the same.

More on this link:
answering-islam.org/BehindVeil/btv7.html

However, its another contradiction within the Quran itself, but the problem that even Aaron in the OT wasn’t part of the plan, but only after Moses told God to send someone else per (Exodus 4:10-17), Aaron is still higher than Jesus as explained in this thread :banghead:.

 

[Kadaveri]

Ok, you can calm down now.

If you want an example of a sibling being used this way, then take Abdullah bin Salam who after meeting Muhammad he is reported to have said “Auntie, he is really, by God, the brother of Moses and follows his religion”. Clearly he didn’t think Muhammad was actually Moses’ brother, but both Muhammad and Moses were descendents of Abraham.

And about ‘daughter’ being used for descendent, that’s irrelevant because Mary was not a descendent of Aaron so referring to her as ‘daughter of Aaron’ would be incorrect in the idiomatic sense. Rather both her and Aaron were descendents of Levi (and her being a descendent of Levi is part of Messianic prophecy), so ‘sister’ is what would be used not ‘daughter’.

It really should be obvious from reading the Qur’an that the author (if you believe it to be Muhammad) was perfectly aware that there were many centuries between Moses and Jesus, I find this quite an incredible claim.

 

[meedo]

In this Quran tafseer, their is one hadith where Aisha (Muhammed’s wife) confirms that they are the same.

More on this link:
answering-islam.org/BehindVeil/btv7.html

However, its another contradiction within the Quran itself, but the problem that even Aaron in the OT wasn’t part of the plan, but only after Moses told God to send someone else per (Exodus 4:10-17), Aaron is still higher than Jesus as explained in this thread :banghead:.

I Do not think it is honest of you to falsify just because people cant read arabic. Aisha ''first thought they were the same and she was corrected and didnt object. She didnt ‘‘confirm’’ or was even consulted as if people asked her for her knowledge on the matter.

And the answering islam link is full of c.r.a.p that is not linked to any source. It talked about a contemporary scholar and didnt say who the hell is he. It kept talking about Tafseer al Baidawy and didnt provide a link for it so people can see if they have translated it truthfully or not.

Most likely it is the youyr opinion above. Use people’s ignorance of arabic amd claim that the site that you quoted support your argument. Like this half truth thing above you tried to stick to Aisha. !

 

[Sam_777]

I Do not think it is honest of you to falsify just because people cant read arabic. Aisha ''first thought they were the same and she was corrected and didnt object. She didnt ‘‘confirm’’ or was even consulted as if people asked her for her knowledge on the matter.

And the answering islam link is full of c.r.a.p that is not linked to any source. It talked about a contemporary scholar and didnt say who the hell is he. It kept talking about Tafseer al Baidawy and didnt provide a link for it so people can see if they have translated it truthfully or not.

Most likely it is the youyr opinion above. Use people’s ignorance of arabic amd claim that the site that you quoted support your argument. Like this half truth thing above you tried to stick to Aisha. !

Even when she was told that there is a 600 years between them, she kept silence, she didn’t withdraw her opinion, anyway, let other Arabic speaking people judge on what they understand of that hadith:

حدثنـي يعقوب، قال: ثنا ابن علـية، عن سعيد بن أبـي صدقة، عن مـحمد بن سيرين، قال: نبئت أن كعبـا قال: إن قوله: { يا أُخْتَ هارُونَ } لـيس بهارون أخي موسى، قال: فقالت له عائشة: كذبت، قال: يا أمّ الـمؤمنـين، إن كان النبـيّ صلى الله عليه وسلم قاله فهو أعلـم وأخبر، وإلا فإنـي أجد بـينهما ستّ مئة سنة، قال: فسكتت​

 

[planten]

Yes, it seems that it would have made much more sense for Allah to say “daughter of Aaron” instead of “sister of Aaron”.

Allah would have known that this issue would come up. After all, Aaron did, in fact, have a biological sister named Miriam. The resulting confusion for Christians should have been anticipated by Allah.

** I have read upto 12 post only. The reply by kadaveri was perfect. There is no end to arguments and accusations. Mary was rightly called the sister of Aaron. I will explain it. The bible does not discuss the birth of Mary. Why? There is plenty missing in the bible.

The person Aaron is the same old person, a prophet of God and the Brother of Moses who used to serve in house of God, to keep it clean and to light candles and do other jobs.

Mary was left in the temple (synogogue) when she was very young. She was serving in the temple and doing the same duty as was done by Haroon (Aaron) and the Levites. (Mary was a Waqf person. Muslims will understand it). She did that until she did not come of age. She did very well, i.e. pray and do othe rjobs under Zakariyya…
But when her menses started, she could not stay in the temple.She had to leave the temple.

She had no hope of any marriage. She did not have any material belongings (wealth). She did not have any close relatives at hand. In fact she had no hope of getting married at all. In such a condition, Some angels from Allah came to Mary and gave her the good news of a grown up youngman, his name being Isa.

These things are described in the Quran in chapter 3 and also in chapter 19.

Mary was a very pious person devoted to God. She was beautiful. When she could not remain in the temple, she had to be handed over to some one. But who? Every one wanted her. Many gathered there and wanted her hand (as a wife of course). There was trouble and tension, one beautiful lady and many suitors. How could the matter be decided?

Lots were drawn (in some way the matter was decided by lots). Joseph the Carpentar was the lucky man who won and Mary was handed over to him. (That was mostly from chapter 3).

In ch. 19 it is described that when the angel came to Mary to give her the good news, he appeared to her as a perfect beautiful(handsome) man. (That was the appearance of the angel in a dream or in any other way to Mary).

She being so pious that even in the dream she sought refuge with Allah the Almighty from beng visited by a perfect man. She did not want to have anything to do with him (Verse 19:18). Then the angel told her that he was an angel, a messenger from God and that he had come to give her (Mary) the good news of a pious youngman ( a son). (More in next post)**

 

[Angelos]

How is it possible that Christians can believe that Jesus (pbuh) is a descendant of David (pbuh)?

And “sister of” does NOT denote being a descendant of.

Jews never refer to themselves as the BROTHERS of Abraham or Isaac or Jacob, but as the SONS of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob! Even your scripture designates Jews as BENI ISRAIL, which means SONS of Israel (descendants of Jacob). Jesus is the SON of Abraham and David, for He is physically linked to Abraham and David’s genealogy.

However, the Koran cannot have meant the same sort of genealogical affiliation by referring to Mary as the sister of Aaron, for Jesus’ mother Mary lived at least 1000 years after Moses’ brother Aaron!

Besides, the word “sister” used in Surah 19 with regard to Mary pertains to direct family ties since Aaron apparently stands for the male representative of Mary’s biological family and is given as the key figure revealing the identity of Mary’s biological parents:

Surah 19:28
O sister of Aaron! Thy father was not a wicked man nor was thy mother a harlot.

 

[Angelos]

The ‘sister’ in 19:28 isn’t literal, it probably means that Mary was a Levite (which ties in with the Messianic prophecy in Zechariah 12). A similar question to yours was put before Muhammad by the Christians of Najran, and his response it recorded in Sahih Muslim (link).

Could you please cite the Koran verse that either defines Mary as a Levite or refers to the Messianic prophecy??? Thanks.

 

[Angelos]

Ok, you can calm down now.

If you want an example of a sibling being used this way, then take Abdullah bin Salam who after meeting Muhammad he is reported to have said “Auntie, he is really, by God, the brother of Moses and follows his religion”. Clearly he didn’t think Muhammad was actually Moses’ brother, but both Muhammad and Moses were descendents of Abraham.

And about ‘daughter’ being used for descendent, that’s irrelevant because Mary was not a descendent of Aaron so referring to her as ‘daughter of Aaron’ would be incorrect in the idiomatic sense. Rather both her and Aaron were descendents of Levi (and her being a descendent of Levi is part of Messianic prophecy), so ‘sister’ is what would be used not ‘daughter’.

It really should be obvious from reading the Qur’an that the author (if you believe it to be Muhammad) was perfectly aware that there were many centuries between Moses and Jesus, I find this quite an incredible claim.

Why do you think the Koran refers to Mary as the SISTER of Aaron and the DAUGHTER of Imran simultaneously? You cannot conceal the mistakes of the Koran by isolating one verse from another. If one understands why the authors of the Koran identified Mary as the sister of Aaron in one verse and as the daughter of Imran in two other verses and remembers that Miriam of the Torah was both the DAUGHTER of Amram and the SISTER of Aaron, Muslim scholars will have no leg to stand on to defend their scripture.

 

[Angelos]

** I have read upto 12 post only. The reply by kadaveri was perfect. There is no end to arguments and accusations. Mary was rightly called the sister of Aaron. I will explain it. The bible does not discuss the birth of Mary. Why? There is plenty missing in the bible.

The person Aaron is the same old person, a prophet of God and the Brother of Moses who used to serve in house of God, to keep it clean and to light candles and do other jobs.

Mary was left in the temple (synogogue) when she was very young. She was serving in the temple and doing the same duty as was done by Haroon (Aaron) and the Levites. (Mary was a Waqf person. Muslims will understand it). She did that until she did not come of age. She did very well, i.e. pray and do othe rjobs under Zakariyya…
But when her menses started, she could not stay in the temple.She had to leave the temple.

She had no hope of any marriage. She did not have any material belongings (wealth). She did not have any close relatives at hand. In fact she had no hope of getting married at all. In such a condition, Some angels from Allah came to Mary and gave her the good news of a grown up youngman, his name being Isa.

These things are described in the Quran in chapter 3 and also in chapter 19.

Mary was a very pious person devoted to God. She was beautiful. When she could not remain in the temple, she had to be handed over to some one. But who? Every one wanted her. Many gathered there and wanted her hand (as a wife of course). There was trouble and tension, one beautiful lady and many suitors. How could the matter be decided?

Lots were drawn (in some way the matter was decided by lots). Joseph the Carpentar was the lucky man who won and Mary was handed over to him. (That was mostly from chapter 3).

In ch. 19 it is described that when the angel came to Mary to give her the good news, he appeared to her as a perfect beautiful(handsome) man. (That was the appearance of the angel in a dream or in any other way to Mary).

She being so pious that even in the dream she sought refuge with Allah the Almighty from beng visited by a perfect man. She did not want to have anything to do with him (Verse 19:18). Then the angel told her that he was an angel, a messenger from God and that he had come to give her (Mary) the good news of a pious youngman ( a son). (More in next post)**

Here are my objections to your argument and long post that reiterate the presumptions of your scripture rather than respond to the main question of this thread:

1) According to your argument, Jesus’ mother Mary was called the “sister of Aaron” since she was dedicated to the Temple. If this assumption is true, why does not the third Surah of the Koran (the surah that relates Mary’s nativity and dedication to the Temple) define Mary as the sister of Aaron??? In other words, why is Mary associated with Aaron ONLY in Surah 19, which says nothing about Mary’s nativity and her dedication to the Temple???

2) Surah 3 of the Koran was proven to be copied almost word by word from an apocyryphal Gospel of the early second century. If you search for Protevangelium or the Gospel of James, you can see what inspired the writers of the Koran to incorporate that apocryphal Gospel into their material.

3) Why is Jesus’ mother Mary the ONLY female recorded with a personal name in the Islamic scripture? Why is Jesus’ mother Mary the ONLY female whose nativity and infancy are narrated in details in the Koran??? Did the authors of the Koran really confuse her with Aarons’ sister Mary, who was a PROPHETESS in the Torah???

 

[Angelos]

Christians who dont have a an axe to fgrind to begin with will understand the metaphor. And many do .

And i beg to differ. There was a point for selecting the term ‘’ sister of Aron’’ As both the sister of Aron and the mother of jesus had the same name , thus giving her a strong reminder as she bore the namke of teh sister of a great man and a prophet of God.

best regards,

Where in the Koran is it written that Jesus’ mother and Aaron’s sister had the same name???

 

[planten]

**
Continued,

Mary said to the angel “How could she have a grown up son when no man had touched her?” And also that “She was not any of the bad type ladies”. That was the time she was still in the temple, and probably years before she left the temple.

The angel replied that it would be like that (The way angel had said before). Angel said “Like that (it will be)” meaning that she will surely have the son. That it was easy for God and that God will make him a sign for the men and (an object) of mercy from God (for men) and that the matter was fully decided by God. It was a matter ordained. ( V. 19:21)

Some time later Mary was handed over to Jospeh the Carpentar as a wife and he took her away to his home. he was the husband of Mary. Then the bible says that Jospeh was informed Mary was pregnant with the holy ghost and that he should not discard her…
Then the birth of Jesus is described in Quran, in some far away land , perhaps during travel, in difficult circumstances. (19:23). She suffered much pain at the birth of Jesus. But she was helped and strengthened by the angels of God at the time of birth and afterwards.

Mary (Maryam) was told to live happily, eat and enjoy and be happy and not to discuss anything with any person. That meant she should not deliver any religious sermon or discuss anything serious with any man. She could talk but not make any speech. (19:27)

Many years passed. Jesus became more than 25 years of age. During that time, according to bible, Jesus had lived for about 12 years in Egypt because there was a danger to his life from the King Herod. God had informed Joseph ( care of an angel in a dream) to take Jesus into Egypt.

Jesus became of age and started his ministry. He went into Jerusalem riding ( a donkey) in company with his mother (19:27). When Jesus started his preaching the Jewish clergy was very much upset and they were trapped and had no way to escape because of their fraudulent practicies. They were highly upset. In such a condition, the senior leaders of the Jews came to Mary to take some help from her against their difficult position in which they were trapped by the teachings of Jesus.

In such a situation, the senior Jews spoke to Mary " O Mary, you have indeed brought a very strange thing (Jesus) to us. (19:27) " O sister of Aaron, Your father was not a bad man and your mother was also not a spoiled woman." (19:28)

Please remember here the mother of Mary who had wished to give up her child in the service of God ( verse 3:35). She was hoping that a son will be born and he will perform good service in the way of God. But it so happened that a daughter was born and she named her Mary. So it proved that the mother of Mary was also a very high class pious person who loved God so much that she offered her offspring in the way of God. God was pleased with her and God produced Jesus out of Mary. So the wish of the mothe rof mary was thus fulfilled.

When the bad behaving senior members of the Jews were in great difficulty due to the preachings of Jesus, they approached Mary the mother to help them. They addressed her in a good and respectable way and said "O sister of Aaron… " In other words they praised her as an important person, a sister of Aaron, a servant of the temple. They said, O Mary, sister of Aaron, you were such a good lady. Your father and mother were also very pious Jews. But look at your son (Jesus). What has caused this problem for all of us. We are in so much trouble due to his preaching…

This has nothing to do with any Aaron being there at the time who was the real brother of Mary. No such thing. Also a great truth on the part of the Quran that it described her very well and pointed her (attached her name) to a very great important person Aaron, a prophet of God.

At that time, Mary did not reply to them or discussed anything with them. She simply referred the seniors to Jesus. That was in accordance with the earlier advice (order) given to Mary after the birth of Jesus not to indulge in any serious talks. (V. 19:26)

They said “How could they discuss things with some one who had been a child in the cradle !!” V. 19:29.**

 

[hamba2han]

The problem here is that people are still NOT reading the link that Kadaveri provided.

To refresh everyone’s memory, here is an excerpt of what it says:

… Christians in Najran during the time of the Prophet(P) raised a similar objection and it was answered by the Prophet(P). In Sahih Muslim, the hadith related by Mughirah ibn Shu`bah says:

When I came to Najran, they (the Christians of Najran) asked me: You read “O sister of Harun” (i.e. Maryam) in the Qur’an, whereas Moses was born much before Jesus. When I came back to Allah’s Messenger(P) I asked him about that, whereupon he said: The (people of the old age) used to give names (to their persons) after the names of Apostle and pious persons who had gone before them…

And so, we can see that this matter had indeed been brought to Prophet Muhammad’s (pbuh) attention.

The FACT that he did not do anything to “correct” this “anomaly”, despite having every opportunity to do so, most definitely shows that the Qur’an CANNOT be his own creation.

And another excerpt from the article:

George Sale in his translation of the Qur’an says:

From the identity of names it has been generally imagined by Christian writers that the Koran here confounds Mary the mother of Jesus with Mary of Miriam, the sister of Moses and Aaron; which intolerable anachronism, if it were certain, is sufficient of itself to destroy the pretended authority of this book. But though Mohammed may be supposed to have been ignorant enough in ancient history and chronology, to have committed so gross a blunder; yet I do not see how it can be made out from the words of the Koran. For it does not follow, because two persons have the same name, and have each a father and brother who bear the same names, that they must therefore necessarily be the same whereby it manifestly appears that Mohammed well knew and asserted that Moses preceded Jesus several ages. And the commentators accordingly fail not to tell us, that there had passed about one thousand eight hundred years between Amran the father of Moses and Amrean the father of the Virgin Mary: they also make them the sons of different persons; the first, they say, was the son of Yeshar, or Izhar (though he was really his brother) the son of Kahath, the son of Levi; and the other was the son of Matthan, whose genealogy they trace, but in a very corrupt and imperfect manner, up to David and thence to Adam. It must be observed that though the Virgin Mary is called in the Koran, the sister of Aaron, yet she is nowhere called the sister of Moses.

 

[algebra]

And so, we can see that this matter had indeed been brought to Prophet Muhammad’s (pbuh) attention.

The FACT that he did not do anything to “correct” this “anomaly”, despite having every opportunity to do so, most definitely shows that the Qur’an CANNOT be his own creation.

Lets look at the scenario, if he edited the quran and corrected it, his own followers would know there was nothing divinely inspired about it, you wouldnt be muslim today in that case hamba.

He had no choice but to lie to cover up his mistake.

 

[algebra]

From the identity of names it has been generally imagined by Christian writers that the Koran here confounds Mary the mother of Jesus with Mary of Miriam, the sister of Moses and Aaron; which intolerable anachronism, if it were certain, is sufficient of itself to destroy the pretended authority of this book. But though Mohammed may be supposed to have been ignorant enough in ancient history and chronology, to have committed so gross a blunder; yet I do not see how it can be made out from the words of the Koran. For it does not follow, because two persons have the same name, and have each a father and brother who bear the same names, that they must therefore necessarily be the same whereby it manifestly appears that Mohammed well knew and asserted that Moses preceded Jesus several ages. And the commentators accordingly fail not to tell us, that there had passed about one thousand eight hundred years between Amran the father of Moses and Amrean the father of the Virgin Mary: they also make them the sons of different persons; the first, they say, was the son of Yeshar, or Izhar (though he was really his brother) the son of Kahath, the son of Levi; and the other was the son of Matthan, whose genealogy they trace, but in a very corrupt and imperfect manner, up to David and thence to Adam. It must be observed that though the Virgin Mary is called in the Koran, the sister of Aaron, yet she is nowhere called the sister of Moses.

george’s explanation fails because it is contrary to the explantion provided by mohammed.

 

[hamba2han]

Lets look at the scenario, if he edited the quran and corrected it, his own followers would know there was nothing divinely inspired about it, you wouldnt be muslim today in that case hamba.

He had no choice but to lie to cover up his mistake.

Paul ‘corrected’ virtually all of the Mosaic dietary laws that Jesus (pbuh) religiously followed and taught his disciples.

Why don’t Christians have any problem at all in accepting the “divine” origin of Paul’s teachings?

 

[planten]

george’s explanation fails because it is contrary to the explantion provided by mohammed.

**That point by friend hamba is great help. Maryam is not called by sister of Moses. Why? Moses and Haroon were brothers. Why did Quran call Maryam the sister of Aarun?. There is a very big point in it. I am thankful to hamba for this fine news. (I have now noticed it that news is from Sale, the translater and commentator of the Quran. very good of him to write that. May Allah bless him.)

It shows that she was called sister of Aarun due to the nature of her duties in the temple… And the Quran is far ahead of the thinking of the bible people. The language and information of the Quran is much advanced type of info. The language of the Quran is very much top class and speed is fast. Thanks.**

 

[algebra]

That is the most ridiculous explanation I have ever heard.

Aaron did not serve in any temple, because there was no temple.

Aaron was consecrated as high priest, Mary was a temple servant.

Two very very different roles.

You could legitamately claim the high priest was the son of aaron (as he undoubtedly would have been)

There is no reason to believe that Mary was connected to a priestly family in anyway.