Muslims: Why would God make a revelation that is contradictory to the revelation of Jesus?

[Tzimisce]

I don’t believe in Islam at all.

Know what happens to pagans under Shariah law?

You Christians can look forward to crucifixion.

I think people like me get tortured first.

 

[openmind77]

I don’t believe in Islam at all.

Know what happens to pagans under Shariah law?

You Christians can look forward to crucifixion.

I think people like me get tortured first.

I don’t think this is really true.

Muslims ruled India for hundreds of years and most of the polytheistic Hindus survived (although there was oppression and destruction of temples)

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

The only major difference is that they believe in One God and not the Trinity - this actually simplifies things rather than being a contradiction (since Christians consider the Trinity to be One God too).

The trinity is not a contradiction.

 

[Servant19]

The most obvious contradiction is, as has been mentioned, the divinity of Christ.

Actually, I’m looking for a plausible explanation as to how Islam could possibly fit into God’s plan. I personally don’t see it, but I’m not asking so that I can forward my own view.

Might I suggest a perspective…

In the Quran, it is said:

**Verily those who plight their fealty to thee do no less than plight their fealty to Allah: ** - 48:10

This surely implies divinity upon Muhammad does it not? What you do to Muhammad you are doing to God.

Muhammad did call Himself a Messenger and a Prophet, like onto Jesus. Is Jesus therefore similarly divine?

.

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

Might I suggest a perspective…

In the Quran, it is said:

**Verily those who plight their fealty to thee do no less than plight their fealty to Allah: ** - 48:10

This surely implies divinity upon Muhammad does it not? What you do to Muhammad you are doing to God.

Muhammad did call Himself a Messenger and a Prophet, like onto Jesus. Is Jesus therefore similarly divine?

.

Is Muhammad to be worshipped as Creator and Lord of all heaven and earth? Stop misrepresenting the word divinity which you apply to anything and everything.

 

[Servant19]

Is Muhammad to be worshipped as Creator and Lord of all heaven and earth? Stop misrepresenting the word divinity which you apply to anything and everything.

Please refrain from telling me off Ignatian…

I put forward a perspective. It does not require you telling me what I should stop doing…

The quote from the Quran clearly equates Muhammad with God. What conclusions you wish to make on that depends on if you want to exclude or include Islam as part of Gods plan…

.

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

Please refrain from telling me off Ignatian…

I put forward a perspective. It does not require you telling me what I should stop doing…

The quote from the Quran clearly equates Muhammad with God. What conclusions you wish to make on that depends on if you want to exclude or include Islam as part of Gods plan…

.

The quran equates Muhammad with God, really? So you worship Muhammad? You offer songs of praise and thanksgiving to Muhammad? Is Muhammad equal to God in the quran? Totally equal ontologically in essence? I would have you clarify.

 

[tonyfish58]

The quran equates Muhammad with God, really? So you worship Muhammad? You offer songs of praise and thanksgiving to Muhammad? Is Muhammad equal to God in the quran? Totally equal ontologically in essence? I would have you clarify.

As God is Ultimately Unknowable we pray to God through all His Manifestations;

Thus yes I can pray to God through Muhammad

I can pray to God through Christ

I do pray to God through Baha’u’llah.

We give all the Prophets the same Respect.

May the One and Only God Bless us all and Regards to all - Tony

 

[Servant19]

The quran equates Muhammad with God, really?

Well, what do you understand from this Quranic verse?

“Verily those who plight their fealty to thee do no less than plight their fealty to Allah” - 48:10

So you worship Muhammad?

I worship Muhammad as much as I worship Jesus, the Bab and Baha’u’llah

Is Muhammad equal to God in the quran?

Slow down
You already asked this question…

Totally equal ontologically in essence? I would have you clarify.

Please, come on, “totally, ontologically in essence” are words made up by man to attribute to Jesus. Figments of man’s imagination. Jesus never used those words ever…

.

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

As God is Ultimately Unknowable we pray to God through all His Manifestations;

Thus yes I can pray to God through Muhammad

I can pray to God through Christ

I do pray to God through Baha’u’llah.

We give all the Prophets the same Respect.

May the One and Only God Bless us all and Regards to all - Tony

Not what I asked, so please reread and answer my question or do I have to clarify myself to the point where you cannot possibly (and purposefully which you bahai do) misread my questions? Just cut to the chase and answer my question as you know what I mean. Stop doing this.

 

[Servant19]

Not what I asked, so please reread and answer my question or do I have to clarify myself to the point where you cannot possibly (and purposefully which you bahai do) misread my questions? Just cut to the chase and answer my question as you know what I mean. Stop doing this.

I answered your question Ignatian, chill out brother

.

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

Well, what do you understand from this Quranic verse?

“Verily those who plight their fealty to thee do no less than plight their fealty to Allah” - 48:10

I worship Muhammad as much as I worship Jesus, the Bab and Baha’u’llah

Slow down
You already asked this question…

Please, come on, “totally, ontologically in essence” are words made up by man to attribute to Jesus. Figments of man’s imagination. Jesus never used those words ever…

.

Answer my question, don’t try to avoid the substance of my question. It is clear enough that you are doing whatever it takes to avoid answering it as the point will be made clear. Do you view Muhammad as the ultimate source of all being, the creator of universe, all powerful, omniscient, timeless, perfect and all holy? You know what i mean by the word God, you know what I mean when I ask is Muhammad God to you? In your prayers when you pray to “god” are you referring to Muhammad? When your prophet mentions God does he refer to Muhammad? When Jesus invoked God did he refer to Muhammad? I know the answer to this question you do not want to answer which makes your previous point of a divine muhammad totally specious and unrepresentative of your actual views.

Its fascinating how bahai go to great lengths to hide what they believe. If I were a muslim and asked if you believed Muhammad to be God, you would say he is not God and he is not worshiped as God. But since I am a Christian you try to make it appear as if we can have some agreement on Jesus who is divine (though not God in your worldview but what does it matter if the Christian understands it differently so long as there is peace and the deceptive intent to mislead him?

So be sincere and answer how you know I regard these words. You cannot possibly be this ignorant as to the Christian worldview at this time. That we don’t call any Tom Dick or Harry God as you seem to, that we reserve it for the Actual God. But I suspect my question will not be answered and you will dodge and you will attempt to mislead once again.

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

I answered your question Ignatian, chill out brother

.

No you didn’t and you know you didn’t.

 

[Servant19]

No you didn’t and you know you didn’t.

I’m sorry but if you want definitive answers from a human being on the exact nature and relationship between God and His Messengers then you’re in for a big surprise when you die…

The verse in the Quran that I quoted is pretty much exactly the same as:

“I and the Father are one”…which is attributed to Jesus

Whatever you want to conclude on the relationship of Jesus with God from that verse in the Bible should be just as equally concluded with Muhammad from that verse in the Quran…

Outside of that…I DO NOT KNOW…

.

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

I’m sorry but if you want definitive answers from a human being on the exact nature and relationship between** God and His Messengers **then you’re in for a big surprise when you die…

The verse in the Quran that I quoted is pretty much exactly the same as:

“I and the Father are one”…which is attributed to Jesus

Whatever you want to conclude on the relationship of Jesus with God from that verse in the Bible should be just as equally concluded with Muhammad from that verse in the Quran…

Outside of that…I DO NOT KNOW…

.

Why are you distinguishing between God and Muhammad? Is not Muhammad divine? Is not Muhammad God? Well I can’t worship a sinful man like Muhammad I’m sorry. I can only worship the divine and transcendent God who is above all material. You and the Mormons have alot in common worshiping a God who is physical.

 

[Servant19]

Why are you distinguishing between God and Muhammad?

Because that’s what Jesus does. He clearly distinguishes Himself as a Messenger, not God.

I can give you several Biblical quotes that CLEARLY show this…

Is not Muhammad divine?

Yes He is…

Is not Muhammad God?

Yes He is…but you have to understand epistemology and ontology.

Well I can’t worship a sinful man like Muhammad I’m sorry.

Please don’t…He has no need for your worship…

I can only worship the divine and transcendent God who is above all material.

Yet, here you are telling me that God walked the earth 2000 years ago and He will walk on this earth again forever and forever when He returns, thereby neglecting all other forms of life on the universe of their Creator…

You and the Mormons have alot in common worshiping a God who is physical.

I do not worship a physical God, you do…come on Ignatian…God is a Spirit in the Baha’i Faith and He should be in Catholicism too, but you worship Him physically right? Even today, He is physically in heaven, right?

.

 

[Servant19]

Why are you so angry Ignatian??

Please, let us help you dear friend…

.

 

[tonyfish58]

Why are you distinguishing between God and Muhammad? Is not Muhammad divine? Is not Muhammad God? Well I can’t worship a sinful man like Muhammad I’m sorry. I can only worship the divine and transcendent God who is above all material. You and the Mormons have alot in common worshiping a God who is physical.

The easy answer is the same way that Christ is God likewise this applies to Muhammad and all the Prophets.

This may not fit to what you believe, but we believe it to be so.

But as Servant says this is outside our knowledge base.

The Baha’i Writings and the Koran can shed a lot more light on this topic.

God Bless and Regards Tony

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

Because that’s what Jesus does. He clearly distinguishes Himself as a Messenger, not God.

I can give you several Biblical quotes that CLEARLY show this…

Yes He is…

Yes He is…but you have to understand epistemology and ontology.

Please don’t…He has no need for your worship…

Yet, here you are telling me that God walked the earth 2000 years ago and He will walk on this earth again forever and forever when He returns, thereby neglecting all other forms of life on the universe of their Creator…

I do not worship a physical God, you do…come on Ignatian…God is a Spirit in the Baha’i Faith and He should be in Catholicism too, but you worship Him physically right? Even today, He is physically in heaven, right?

.

I knew I might get a reaction from you if I just presented a false representation of Bahia. I knew you would actually define your beliefs somewhat if I just on purposefully mistated the bahai doctrine. The thing is you do not believe Muhammad to be divine in the sense he is God, you use the word divinity to describe a general essence shared among the so called manifestations. They are one step above humanity but one step below God. This is the bahai belief and I can’t believe you couldn’t define it as simply as I could but instead have to be as confusing as possible whenever speaking about these things.

You reject the New testament and Christian doctrine that Christ is God, this is what was originally meant when the Christian says Christ is divine. He does not mean the same thing you do and I know you know this. You latched on to this word however and inserting it in a bahai context then insisted Muhammad was divine in an attempt to show the quran as equal with the New testament, except it isn’t. The quran understands Muhammad’s place as that of a prophet, not actually God but someone who is righteous and sent to guide the Arab people, but definitely not God. You may disagree with the language but in our attempts to dialogue we must try not to confuse each other so its better if you simply call the manifestations divinities or spirits instead of God or this will needlessly complicate things and may mislead others into your views as confusing as they are. You need a blasphemer, such as myself to help define your theology for you and I am willing and able to help.

So, your original point that the quran views Muhammad as divine, means little when it is qualified that you do not mean the same thing as the Christian who says Jesus is divine or God. You mean something totally different, hence why I am confused you would take that line of argumentation with the Christian. I am still convinced however that you will not take my advice but will insist on conflating terms whenever possible in an attempt to look as if you agree with your opponents.

I don’t think you could deny that if you were speaking to a Muslim you would emphatically state that Muhammad is Not God. The reason is obvious, you don’t want to appear really heterodox in their eyes. The bahais need to work out their theology and their terms as it is just a jumbled mess which leaves those not in the know confused and lost.

I am perfectly sincere in saying all this and hope you take this advice seriously because saying Muhammad is God to a Christian will only mislead them into thinking you actually think they are God when you don’t really and I know you don’t. Call Muhammad a spirit or a divinity and make it clear from the outset. Why do you insist on this strategy of duplicity?

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

The easy answer is the same way that Christ is God likewise this applies to Muhammad and all the Prophets.

This may not fit to what you believe, but we believe it to be so.

But as Servant says this is outside our knowledge base.

The Baha’i Writings and the Koran can shed a lot more light on this topic.

God Bless and Regards Tony

See my other post. You bahai surely realise that saying Muhammad is God to a Chrisitan is going to give them a false impression right? Would you say to a Jew that Moses was God? No you wouldn’t as you don’t want them to think of you as polytheists or man worshipers. The strange thing is you are fine saying it to Christians which I find odd as that is what Christians will think of you if you say such things and refuse to define it. Refuse to to distinguish different categories of what you mean by God.

That is God to you seems to mean many things.

Jesus is God. Muhammad is God. Buddha is God. Ali Hussein is God.

But in the same breath you can also say. Jesus is not God. Muhammad is not God. Buddha is not God. Ali Hussein is Not God.

Do you see how you are unnecessarily complicating things? Is it not obvious?

Better to say Jesus is a divine offspring of God than to say Jesus is God as that is ultimately what he is in bahai, a caused entity who somehow reflects God perfectly. He is not in his essence actually God. And I if I have misunderstood and you consider Jesus in his essence actually God and all the manifestations, well that’s one big trinity you have.