Muslims: Why would God make a revelation that is contradictory to the revelation of Jesus?

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That’s sound odd. Muslims may not appreciate this tone.:hmmm:

MJ
The tone or the content?

I speak with a respectful tone, or at least try to, but if my post is challenging to Muslims, then its time for them to also see things with the eye of “oneness” and not “exclusivity”

There lies the challenge. Heaven forbid if Baha’is are lumped together with Catholics and/or Muslims, shameful indeed…

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The tone or the content?

I speak with a respectful tone, or at least try to, but if my post is challenging to Muslims, then its time for them to also see things with the eye of “oneness” and not “exclusivity”

There lies the challenge. Heaven forbid if Baha’is are lumped together with Catholics and/or Muslims, shameful indeed…

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No Muslim has taken the bait no matter how much you think you know about “celebrated Muslim scholars” you just named.

Let’s be careful not to cross the line Servant against the rules of CAF. Because you are intentionally or unintentionally baiting Muslims and Catholics in particular your second point. 🤷

MJ
 
No Muslim has taken the bait no matter how much you think you know about “celebrated Muslim scholars” you just named.

Let’s be careful not to cross the line Servant against the rules of CAF. Because you are intentionally or unintentionally baiting Muslims and Catholics in particular your second point. 🤷

MJ
Martin,
. Just my guess, but I think he was being sarcastic. God lumps all of us sinners in the same boat. Then, He tries to tell us we are equal, with no one above the other, and that if we’d only row in unison, we’d all make it to paradise “together”…
 
Im only asking Melzerboy, what he really believes about the Catholic church.

However, this thread still has no single Muslim come here to comment on the OP. As it stands, nothing really has been answered till Muslims put their voice here.

MJ
What I believe about the Catholic Church is not the topic of the thread. In fact, I did not mention the Catholic Church specifically in my post. What I did say is that there is endless interpretation concerning Scripture: Jews and Christians (not only Catholics) disagree on the meaning of the Old and New Covenants, and, I might add, not all Christians or all Jews agree with one another. But, in addition to Jews and Christians who disagree, so do Muslims, Mormons, Bahais, Quakers, JW’s, and so on. I was responding to your comment about Muslims, who do not accept the revelation of Jesus as the final revelation.
 
What I believe about the Catholic Church is not the topic of the thread. In fact, I did not mention the Catholic Church specifically in my post. What I did say is that there is endless interpretation concerning Scripture: Jews and Christians (not only Catholics) disagree on the meaning of the Old and New Covenants, and, I might add, not all Christians or all Jews agree with one another. But, in addition to Jews and Christians who disagree, so do Muslims, Mormons, Bahais, Quakers, JW’s, and so on. I was responding to your comment about Muslims, who do not accept the revelation of Jesus as the final revelation.
Ok. But Non of the Faiths you state started 2000 years ago.

MJ
 
Hinduism is older than both Christianity and Judaism. Why should the age of a religion be particularly relevant to its truth, or the number of adherents for that matter?
Youre not getting me.

Mormons, Bahai, Quakers, use,OUR book (NT) and interpret for us forming a Jesus of their own. Hindus dont refer and use Bible veses or deny Church teachings about Jesus and his Apostles.

MJ
 
And Jews believe there is nothing that has to be fulfilled in the Covenant given by G-d to Moses. Christians disagree with Jews on this point, just as Mormons, Muslims, and Bahais disagree with Christians, all in their own way. Interpretation of Scripture, whether by authority or individuals, is never-ending.
I don’t suppose to end the debates, that is impossible, but I can still criticism bahai for insisting on interpretations which do great injustice to the New testament. When they insist Jesus did not rise from the dead (again I have to remind the bahai what I mean by this or else they will twist my words and pretend to agree with me), despite everything we know about the way resurrection language was used in the first century it strains credibility to simply quote their prophet and think that ends the discussion.

I can’t argue with a Jew on the Old testament, but there are Christians who can and who I think demolish Judaism. But the bahai method of interpreting the bible or any text is not reflective, it involves no careful consideration, but jerk reactions to verses which might contradict their message. For instance, death in the New testament is never treated as good, as it is never treated as good (in the ultimate sense) in the Old testament, yet the bahai call death a friend and embrace the world of pure spirituality without this clumsy physicality, as if God made a mistake.

People may disagree with me or agree with me, but that doesn’t mean both opinions are equally valid or that it is futile to go into these discussions.
 
I don’t suppose to end the debates, that is impossible, but I can still criticism bahai for insisting on interpretations which do great injustice to the New testament. When they insist Jesus did not rise from the dead (again I have to remind the bahai what I mean by this or else they will twist my words and pretend to agree with me), despite everything we know about the way resurrection language was used in the first century it strains credibility to simply quote their prophet and think that ends the discussion.

I can’t argue with a Jew on the Old testament, but there are Christians who can and who I think demolish Judaism. But the bahai method of interpreting the bible or any text is not reflective, it involves no careful consideration, but jerk reactions to verses which might contradict their message. For instance, death in the New testament is never treated as good, as it is never treated as good (in the ultimate sense) in the Old testament, yet the bahai call death a friend and embrace the world of pure spirituality without this clumsy physicality, as if God made a mistake.

People may disagree with me or agree with me, but that doesn’t mean both opinions are equally valid or that it is futile to go into these discussions.
Did God make a mistake in giving you an umbilical cord in the womb?

Death in the Bible is related to spiritual death. Show me one verse in the Bible that says that PHYSICAL DEATH is a bad thing.

Also why don’t you start a Bahai thread and discuss these matters? You seem to have a lot of unresolved issues with the Bahai Faith and trying to resolve them on a Muslim thread is not fruitful…

Thanks…
 
Did God make a mistake in giving you an umbilical cord in the womb?

Death in the Bible is related to spiritual death. Show me one verse in the Bible that says that PHYSICAL DEATH is a bad thing.

Also why don’t you start a Bahai thread and discuss these matters? You seem to have a lot of unresolved issues with the Bahai Faith and trying to resolve them on a Muslim thread is not fruitful…

Thanks…
Romans 5

12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned—

13 To be sure, sin was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not charged against anyone’s account where there is no law. 14 Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who is a pattern of the one to come.

15 But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! 16 Nor can the gift of God be compared with the result of one man’s sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification. 17 For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!

18 Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people. 19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

20 The law was brought in so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more, 21 so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Death is not good, it is the enemy of mankind. Do you like people dying? I ask this out of all sincerity, for if death is a friend and we reap an eternally better reward by dying than by living, what is the point of continuing on this earth? You are not condemned to hell in bahai, you are just condemned to a further away point from God than others. If death is not the enemy, there is no reason to continue living when we are better off being dead corpses.

For my part I believe in a God who values the material world he created and will not doom it to a heat death, or cold death end.
 
Death is not good, it is the enemy of mankind. Do you like people dying? I ask this out of all sincerity, for if death is a friend and we reap an eternally better reward by dying than by living, what is the point of continuing on this earth? You are not condemned to hell in bahai, you are just condemned to a further away point from God than others. If death is not the enemy, there is no reason to continue living when we are better off being dead corpses.

For my part I believe in a God who values the material world he created and will not doom it to a heat death, or cold death end.
Ignatian,
. I sense a grief here in you, for which I sympathize deeply. You sound as though you are grieving the loss of someone close to you. Just a hunch, but if it be so, my heart goes out to you.

. Now I wish to share with you two losses, if I may, out of respect for your sentiments, which you have expressed. The first loss was that of my mother, at age 70, who died of cancer just three days before her first grandchildren were born to their mother and me, twin girls.

. Mom had suffered from cancer for five years, had surgery, chemotherapy, and was physically blind at the end. Yet her mind was still keen and her soul beaming with light, while her body withered away. The death of her body was indeed God’s greatest blessing at that stage of her life, although it meant that we could no longer communicate in the way we are accustomed to with one another, as you and I, and others are now.

. My other loss was nearly five years ago, one of those beautiful girls. This was the greatest tragedy of my life, the deepest loss, the worst grief, and utterly impossible to bear without faith in God and constant prayers for strength to endure such a premature loss of a child just shy of her 25th birthday.

. I will share a third, that of my brother, at age 18, back in 1970, in a car accident west of Wounded Knee. He had signed up to go to Viet Nam, having enlisted to go into the Rangers, in some sort of Rambo fantasy. What he would have done over there and how he would have come back is what prompts me to add him to this brief commentary.

. Mom’s death was clearly “a messenger of joy”, for her suffering ceased. My daughter’s life ended her mental agony from bi-polar disorder and the wrong medication prescribed. Only faith tells me that “she” did not die, but rather it was her body, and a thousand people praying for her assures me that she is ok, with God, and her grandmother, and grandfather, who passed a few years ago at age 99.

. As for my brother, he did not go to Viet Nam because of the accident, so he did not kill men, women, and children in a senseless war. So in his case I can reason that death was a messenger of joy for the families of those whose lives he did not take, or if he had died over there, for ours in a whole other context. I see no difference between My Lai and Wounded Knee, and thank God that he was spared in any such participation.

. For anyone reading this and not understanding the context of the reference which you are having difficulty with, I will quote from the Hidden Words of Baha’u’llah that which you cite:

“O son of the Supreme!
I have made death a messenger of joy to thee. Wherefore dost thou grieve? I made the light to shed on thee its splendor. Why dost thou veil thyself therefrom?”

. For me, there is great reassurance in these words of the life to come, which is the true life, and that our life does not end with the death of the body. Our body is like a coat, or a suit of clothes, woven of the fabric of this physical world. It is not eternal, nor meant to be. It is our soul which is real, and which we must prepare for when it no longer has this physical flesh to inhabit and learn from and grow through.

. This life is important. We should live healthy and care for ourselves in this, our natural life. Yet if it must be sacrificed early, then let it burn brightly in that sacrifice, and if it is to live its full length, let it be done so as nobly as can be, as a living sacrifice, in service to God and His servants.

. May God bless you in whatever grief you carry. My heart grieves for your losses as it does for my own.

. Most assuredly, my prayers are with you.
. Dale
 
Romans 5

12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned—

13 To be sure, sin was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not charged against anyone’s account where there is no law. 14 Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who is a pattern of the one to come.

15 But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! 16 Nor can the gift of God be compared with the result of one man’s sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification. 17 For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!

18 Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people. 19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

20 The law was brought in so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more, 21 so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Death is not good, it is the enemy of mankind. Do you like people dying? I ask this out of all sincerity, for if death is a friend and we reap an eternally better reward by dying than by living, what is the point of continuing on this earth? You are not condemned to hell in bahai, you are just condemned to a further away point from God than others. If death is not the enemy, there is no reason to continue living when we are better off being dead corpses.

For my part I believe in a God who values the material world he created and will not doom it to a heat death, or cold death end.
I’m sorry but all of this refers to spiritual death… the word “physical” does not even get mentioned once in your quotes.

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Insert emotionally charged story here
. Dale
I have no interest in your personal life. You can call death a friend. I will call it an enemy which Christ defeated. DO NOT SAY YOU AGREE WITH ME, you know what I mean.
 
I’m sorry but all of this refers to spiritual death… the word “physical” does not even get mentioned once in your quotes.

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No it refers to physical death and Saint Paul is specifically referring to the creation account of genesis. Do you believe sin entered the world through one man? No you don’t, you reject that in favor of a naturalist view of things.

But do you honestly believe death is okay? That death is in all things good? I’ve brought this problem up before but since you have everything to profit from death (there is absolutely no negatives to committing suicide in bahai, other than i suppose being a bit behind others in the eternal progression towards God) why is suicide wrong? Why is abortion evil?

You must understand Saint Paul as he was, a pharisee. He believed in the pharisaic notion of resurrection which was physical renewal and immortality. What can be more good than rising the dead to life? What can be more good than a world without death? I suppose in your mind a non existent universe is preferable to an existent universe.
 
Muslims believe that the Gospels of Jesus were corrupted over time, therefore they reject that he was actually God/died for our sins. They do accept him as a major prophet and messenger of God, of equal status with Muhammad (all prophets are equal in Islam).
Even though all of the transcriptual evidence that archeologists have say the exact opposite. They say that the modern version we have is probably 99% accurate towards the originals.

But it can be hard to except or even to look at facts when you have been brought up a certain way. I can imagine how difficult it would be for me if evidence was produced that Jesus was not who the gospels say He was. Of course such evidence will never be produced, but it would be a tough pill to swallow if it were.
 
I am not sure that Islam contradicts Christianity that much.

They do not consider Jesus to be a Son of God, but that is natural - why would a religion consider some other faith’s leader to be God?

Otherwise, I am not sure Islam is that different - it is actually closer to Judaism.

The only major difference is that they believe in One God and not the Trinity - this actually simplifies things rather than being a contradiction (since Christians consider the Trinity to be One God too).
Islam completely contradicts Christianity. The central theme of the utmost importance of Christianity is the belief that God became man in the form of Jesus Christ and then died for our sins and was resurrected and that in doing so He has defeated death for us all. This is THE required belief to be a Christian. All other parts of the faith are miscellaneous “bells and whistles” which do are largely disputed upon and argued. They are not the required beliefs of a Christian. While Islam my share miscellaneous beliefs with Christians, they completely lack the single fundamental belief which is EVERYTHING to Christians. So, aside from their both being religions, Christianity and Islam are not even remotely similar.
 
Islam completely contradicts Christianity. The central theme of the utmost importance of Christianity is the belief that God became man in the form of Jesus Christ and then died for our sins and was resurrected and that in doing so He has defeated death for us all. This is THE required belief to be a Christian. All other parts of the faith are miscellaneous “bells and whistles” which do are largely disputed upon and argued. They are not the required beliefs of a Christian. While Islam my share miscellaneous beliefs with Christians, they completely lack the single fundamental belief which is EVERYTHING to Christians. So, aside from their both being religions, Christianity and Islam are not even remotely similar.
The similarities between Christianity and Islam, are the same similarities between Christianity and Judaism.

Both Jews and Muslims reject that God became man, is man, incarnates etc.
 
Why would God make a revelation that is, in some of the most basic ways, contradictory to the revelation of Jesus?
This doesn’t make any sense, especially considering that Christ made the ultimate sacrifice for us before Islam came about.
Islam contradicts Orthodox and Catholic Christianity, but it does not contradict the revelation of Jesus. So for the Muslims perspective, there is no contradiction.
 
haven’t read through all the posts, but surely it was mentioned that Islam is a man-created religion.
 
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