Must we forgive the unrepentant?

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The_Wizard said:
Let us get real here. I am walking down the street and a person comes out and beats me about the head and shoulders and steals my wallet. He does not feel sorry for what he did and in fact revel in his ability to hurt and steal. According to you I must forgive him for what he has done to me. Correct? Has God forgiven him for what he has done? Be sure to answer this question. If he is unrepentant and I have forgiven him and God has not forgiven him I am not better than God? Maybe my understanding of how the word forgive is used in this context. If God always forgives the unrepentant why be good?
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If I may ask, what does it mean to you to forgive.

I will not presume to speak how God will judge this person. Nor do I believe that God always forgives the unrepentant. Instead, I will trust that His justice and judgement are perfect.

I, however, would forgive this person, because this is what God has commanded us to do. I would forgive him in as much as I would do my best to let go of any hard feelings, vindictiveness, animosity, or wish for revenge. I would do my best, and pray for God’s help, to let go of the anger toward this person. I would pray that this person’s heart is converted and that he be forgiven if it be God’s will. If I came upon this person again in the street in serious need of aid, I would not deny him out of spite.

It doesn’t mean that I would have to forget that this person ever hurt me. Certainly, if I ever came across this person again, there would also be a fair amount of caution involved.

In Mathew 6:14-15, Jesus states: “If you forgive others their transgressions, your heavenly father will forgive you. But if you do not forgive others, neither will your Father forgive your transgression.” There are no caveats or conditions for contrition here, just that we forgive.
 
The_Wizard said:
Let us get real here. I am walking down the street and a person comes out and beats me about the head and shoulders and steals my wallet. He does not feel sorry for what he did and in fact revel in his ability to hurt and steal. According to you I must forgive him for what he has done to me. Correct? Has God forgiven him for what he has done? Be sure to answer this question. If he is unrepentant and I have forgiven him and God has not forgiven him I am not better than God? Maybe my understanding of how the word forgive is used in this context. If God always forgives the unrepentant why be good?
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You forgive.
The attacker should REPENT.
Two different issues.
God forgives us all our sins when we repent. Sorrow. Contrition.
We must repent. No, we are not better than God, but we model God’s behavior.
It’s up to God alone to decide what punishment will be given to the unrepentant.
Whether the person who does the wrong feels sorry to YOU is immaterial to your forgiveness. It’s not a tit for tat thing.
Your forgiveness benefits your soul. The attacker is responsible for the state of his own soul.
As so many have stated, it’s all outlined in the Our Father pretty succinctly.
The Prodigal Son story is important because the parent rejoiced at the repentance. He didn’t want to get even, or to see the son suffer. He loved him, and he was happy he returned and repented. That’s the hard part for us. We want to get even, We want others to suffer like we did. It’s human nature, but it’s not God’s way. Only obstinate non repentance disappoints and saddens the Lord.
God bless.
 
DaveBj said:
I will give my views, with the caveat that I have gotten a lot of flak in the past for them.

Does God forgive us, if we are unrepentant?

Does God expect us to do for others what he does not do for us?

On the other hand, when someone sins against us and is unrepentant about it, it is still not healthy to hang on to that offense and stew about it.

On the other hand, if we pray, “And forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us,” and mean it, and if we automatically forgive all offenses against us, whether the offenders are repentant or not, do we have a similar claim on God, to automatically forgive us?

Does anyone have a third hand?
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I would be a bit skeptical to claim that we have a claim on God to automatically do anything for us. He is the one holding all the cards.
 
The_Wizard said:
Let us get real here. I am walking down the street and a person comes out and beats me about the head and shoulders and steals my wallet. He does not feel sorry for what he did and in fact revel in his ability to hurt and steal. According to you I must forgive him for what he has done to me. Correct? Has God forgiven him for what he has done? Be sure to answer this question. If he is unrepentant and I have forgiven him and God has not forgiven him I am not better than God? Maybe my understanding of how the word forgive is used in this context. If God always forgives the unrepentant why be good?
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No you are not better than God. For instance, if a boss tells his or her employee (let’s say a janitor) to sweep a floor, this does not make the janitor equal in his position to his boss even though the boss does not sweep floors.

Let us look a response of a real saint. Mother Teresa of Calcutta would respond to an attacker by forgiving and praying for her attacker.
 
pianistclare said:
You forgive.
The attacker should REPENT.
Two different issues.
God forgives us all our sins when we repent. Sorrow. Contrition.
We must repent. No, we are not better than God, but we model God’s behavior.
It’s up to God alone to decide what punishment will be given to the unrepentant.
Whether the person who does the wrong feels sorry to YOU is immaterial to your forgiveness. It’s not a tit for tat thing.
Your forgiveness benefits your soul. The attacker is responsible for the state of his own soul.
As so many have stated, it’s all outlined in the Our Father pretty succinctly.
The Prodigal Son story is important because the parent rejoiced at the repentance. He didn’t want to get even, or to see the son suffer. He loved him, and he was happy he returned and repented. That’s the hard part for us. We want to get even, We want others to suffer like we did. It’s human nature, but it’s not God’s way. Only obstinate non repentance disappoints and saddens the Lord.
God bless.
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I am still confused. “God forgives us all our sins when we repent.” but I forgive my attacker even if he is UNREPENTANT. It sound to me like I am not only modeling God’s behavior but going beyond it. Being better than God. “Whether the person who does the wrong feels sorry to YOU is immaterial to your forgiveness.” Is it immaterial to God’s forgiveness? Why should I be sorry for / repent of any of my sins? God will forgive me anyway. Universal salvation (no hell)? I understand that “letting go of the hurt” is important to one’s well being. I just think using the word forgive for that process is wrong.
 
God will take care of the unrepentant. I think it is important to remember that our forgiving an attacker,repentant or not, is not for the one who has attacked us.

Forgiving cures us. Forgiving frees us. God alone knows the intent of the attacker. We can not know for sure whether or not an attacker has or ever will repent of the harm he has done us. This is knowledge only God can know.

Ultimately He makes the final decision. In the meantime we are free to go on with our lives.

By teaching us how to forgive, God has given us a precious gift that can lead us out of years of anger and pain.
 
I know the spiral of anger and pain that comes from not forgiving. I also know what it means to finally give up that anger and pain by forgiving.
 
The_Wizard said:
I am still confused. “God forgives us all our sins when we repent.” but I forgive my attacker even if he is UNREPENTANT. It sound to me like I am not only modeling God’s behavior but going beyond it. Being better than God. “Whether the person who does the wrong feels sorry to YOU is immaterial to your forgiveness.” Is it immaterial to God’s forgiveness? Why should I be sorry for / repent of any of my sins? God will forgive me anyway. Universal salvation (no hell)? I understand that “letting go of the hurt” is important to one’s well being. I just think using the word forgive for that process is wrong.
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The difference is that they are ultimately accountable to God for their actions and choices. As are we. We are called to forgive to restore. God alone decides their fate…and that is dependent on their repentance. We might not even ever know when and of they did. We just have to release our own hearts from the anger. That’s why forgiveness benefits us.
It’s impossible to be bigger than God in this regard.
In our own small circle we are reconcile with each other.
 
pianistclare said:
The difference is that they are ultimately accountable to God for their actions and choices. As are we. We are called to forgive to restore. God alone decides their fate…and that is dependent on their repentance. We might not even ever know when and of they did. We just have to release our own hearts from the anger. That’s why forgiveness benefits us.
It’s impossible to be bigger than God in this regard.
In our own small circle we are reconcile with each other.
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Can you define forgiveness? What does it mean to forgive? Is it the same as pardon or excuse? And what of the concept of justice.
 
DonCampbell said:
I had always assumed that as Christians we are required to forgive those who have injured / offended us even if they do not seek our forgiveness. Recently, however, I heard a Catholic apologist who disagreed. He said we are only required to forgive the repentant - i.e., those who seek our forgiveness. He cited LK 17:3-4: If your brother sins, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him. 4 And if he wrongs you seven times in one day and returns to you seven times saying, ‘I am sorry,’ you should forgive him.” To me, this passage seems to support the view that we must extend forgiveness to the repentant, but it doesn’t really go so far as to say we can withhold forgiveness from the unrepentant. It was also suggested by the apologist I heard that a requirement that we forgive the unrepentant would ask us to do more even than God, because God does not forgive the unrepentant.

What is the correct Catholic position? Can anyone shed more light on this?

Thanks.
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Im aware of this position. Is it right? I do not know. Forgiveness is difficult and even more difficult if the person downright does not care.
 
The_Wizard said:
I am still confused. “God forgives us all our sins when we repent.” but I forgive my attacker even if he is UNREPENTANT. It sound to me like I am not only modeling God’s behavior but going beyond it. Being better than God. “Whether the person who does the wrong feels sorry to YOU is immaterial to your forgiveness.” Is it immaterial to God’s forgiveness? Why should I be sorry for / repent of any of my sins? God will forgive me anyway. Universal salvation (no hell)? I understand that “letting go of the hurt” is important to one’s well being. I just think using the word forgive for that process is wrong.
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Jesus forgave the ones crucifying Him while they were doing it. They were not repentant. His words were, “Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do.” Those should also be our words to those who unrepentantly trespass against us.

If you think there is any way to outdo God in forgiveness, you are sadly, tragically mistaken. Someone somewhere along the way has grossly misinformed you as to who God is.

The notion of withholding forgiveness due to a lack of repentance is absolutely scandalous. Forgiving when it’s not deserved or asked for is the core of being a follower and imitator of Jesus. Anyone who contends with that is woefully deceived.

EDIT: Of course it’s DIFFICULT to forgive someone who isn’t sorry. It would be understandable if someone doesn’t forgive because it’s too difficult. They would just be falling short of being perfect as our Heavenly Father is perfect. But to withhold forgiveness because one thinks it is the “right thing to do as a Catholic” is a terrible misrepresentation of Catholicism.
 
Thanks to all of you for your studied and thoughtful opinions on this issue. It seems that Sacred Scripture weighs in favor of a requirement of unconditional forgiveness on our part, but there are verses to support both views.

Is anyone aware of a section of the Catechism or a Magisterial document that provides a definitive teaching of the Church on this issue?

Does the Church OFFICIALLY TEACH that we must forgive the unrepentant in order to be saved?

Does it OFFICIALLY TEACH that we are not required to forgive the unrepentant in order to be saved?

Or, has no formal pronouncement been made (either because the answer is obvious or because it has intentionally been left open)?

Peace to you all.
 
DonCampbell said:
Thanks to all of you for your studied and thoughtful opinions on this issue. It seems that Sacred Scripture weighs in favor of a requirement of unconditional forgiveness on our part, but there are verses to support both views.

Is anyone aware of a section of the Catechism or a Magisterial document that provides a definitive teaching of the Church on this issue?

Does the Church OFFICIALLY TEACH that we must forgive the unrepentant in order to be saved?

Does it OFFICIALLY TEACH that we are not required to forgive the unrepentant in order to be saved?

Or, has no formal pronouncement been made (either because the answer is obvious or because it has intentionally been left open)?

Peace to you all.
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We should probably error on the side of mercy.
 
Hoosier_Daddy said:
Can you define forgiveness? What does it mean to forgive? Is it the same as pardon or excuse? And what of the concept of justice.
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I think I can tell you what it doesn’t mean.
It doesn’t mean that a woman (or man) has to go back to an abusive situation.
It doesn’t mean that we are to allow abuse, bullying, mistreatment to continue.

Forgiving allows a person to understand the situation and the people involved. It allows a person to evaluate what steps are necessary to take in order to release oneself from the cycle of abuse.

If a person can escape the downward spiral of anger, hate, spite, fear and the self-loathing that these emotions engender, he or she can think clearly enough to know what to do.
 
Hoosier_Daddy said:
But why err at all?
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On whether or not we read the scriptures that seem to say we do not have to forgive the unrepentant person who may have harmed us. Or to follow the scriptures that indicate that we should forgive the unrepentant.
 
Hoosier_Daddy said:
Can you define forgiveness? What does it mean to forgive? Is it the same as pardon or excuse? And what of the concept of justice.
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Hoosier Daddy - I can sum up the difference. It’s like my mom used to say before applying the wooden spoon to my backside: “I love you, and I forgive you, you but I am still going to spank you.”
 
DonCampbell said:
I had always assumed that as Christians we are required to forgive those who have injured / offended us even if they do not seek our forgiveness. Recently, however, I heard a Catholic apologist who disagreed. He said we are only required to forgive the repentant - i.e., those who seek our forgiveness. He cited LK 17:3-4: If your brother sins, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him. 4 And if he wrongs you seven times in one day and returns to you seven times saying, ‘I am sorry,’ you should forgive him.”
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If someone has offended us by some small offense, but they remain a person of good will toward us, we should forgive them without requiring explicit repentance or an apology. Their continued good will should be sufficient. Similarly, God forgives venial sins the next time the person prays devoutly, even if they have not called each venial sin to mind and asked for forgiveness.

If someone has offended us by some great offense, and they are unrepentant, we should forbear. That means we continue to love them (“love your enemies”), and we pray and hope for their repentance. But we cannot treat them the same as if they were repentant from grave sin. Similarly, God only forgives mortal sin if the person repents with perfect contrition, or imperfection contrition and Confession (or extreme unction).

If someone has offended us by some great offense, and they are truly repentant, we should forgive them. For God forgives all who repent from any sin.
 
Ron_Conte said:
If someone has offended us by some small offense, but they remain a person of good will toward us, we should forgive them without requiring explicit repentance or an apology. Their continued good will should be sufficient. Similarly, God forgives venial sins the next time the person prays devoutly, even if they have not called each venial sin to mind and asked for forgiveness.

If someone has offended us by some great offense, and they are unrepentant, we should forbear. That means we continue to love them (“love your enemies”), and we pray and hope for their repentance. But we cannot treat them the same as if they were repentant from grave sin. Similarly, God only forgives mortal sin if the person repents with perfect contrition, or imperfection contrition and Confession (or extreme unction).

If someone has offended us by some great offense, and they are truly repentant, we should forgive them. For God forgives all who repent from any sin.
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This I would agree with
 
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