Must we forgive the unrepentant?

[clem456]

Are you saying that all you have to do to be forgiven and brought right with God is just to ask? That there is no change, no repenting, no amendment needed?

God’s forgiveness is a gift. We don’t cause him to be forgiving. He is the cause of it and the constant giver of it. The quote from the catechism several posts ago points this out.

1990 Justification detaches man from sin which contradicts the love of God, and purifies his heart of sin. Justification **follows upon **God’s merciful initiative of offering forgiveness. It reconciles man with God. It frees from the enslavement to sin, and it heals.

He offers it. It is a gift, it is not earned. The cross is the price of his mercy. The cross is his total and complete gift of Himself in the face of our rejection of him.
To be sure, his gratuitous gift should awaken a response to this initiative. His offer of the gift asks for the response of faith.

 

[porthos11]

God’s forgiveness is a gift. We don’t cause him to be forgiving. He is the cause of it and the constant giver of it. The quote from the catechism several posts ago points this out.

He offers it. It is a gift, it is not earned. The cross is the price of his mercy. The cross is his total and complete gift of Himself in the face of our rejection of him.
To be sure, his gratuitous gift should awaken a response to this initiative. His offer of the gift asks for the response of faith.

Yes. Which is why we must believe that even the act of repentance itself is something that’s initiated by God’s unmerited grace.

But that is not the same as saying God automatically forgives. God requires our free response to his grace to repent (metanoia) and seek reconciliation with him, i.e. be justified before him. If we reject that grace, and we can, because we are free, then we remain unforgiven.

 

[clem456]

Yes. Which is why we must believe that even the act of repentance itself is something that’s initiated by God’s unmerited grace.

But that is not the same as saying God automatically forgives. God requires our free response to his grace to repent (metanoia) and seek reconciliation with him, i.e. be justified before him. If we reject that grace, and we can, because we are free, then we remain unforgiven.

There is a difference between forgiveness, and justification/attaining salvation/union with God etc… That all requires our response.

But God forgives continually and completely without counting the cost, before we respond, in spite of our lack of response, and in spite of our continuing inadequacy.
Faith is our decision to respond to him, not the arrival at perfection. It is the acceptance of God’s offer. We do not earn God’s loving forgiveness through repentance. If we had to earn it, none of us would see his face.
God is love.

 

[DonCampbell]

Again, thanks so much to all of you for your thoughtful and well-considered opinions. What I am looking for is a definitive answer to this question from the Catechism or from a Magisterial document. I have not been able to find one, and it seems no one here is able to provide one. I am getting to the point of concluding that there is simply no definitive statement from the Church on this point. Thank you all again.

 

[Horton]

Are you saying that all you have to do to be forgiven and brought right with God is just to ask? That there is no change, no repenting, no amendment needed?

Yes

God’s forgiveness is a gift. We don’t cause him to be forgiving. He is the cause of it and the constant giver of it. The quote from the catechism several posts ago points this out.

1990 Justification detaches man from sin which contradicts the love of God, and purifies his heart of sin. Justification follows upon God’s merciful initiative of offering forgiveness. It reconciles man with God. It frees from the enslavement to sin, and it heals

He offers it. It is a gift, it is not earned. The cross is the price of his mercy. The cross is his total and complete gift of Himself in the face of our rejection of him.
To be sure, his gratuitous gift should awaken a response to this initiative. His offer of the gift asks for the response of faith.

There is a difference between forgiveness, and justification/attaining salvation/union with God etc… That all requires our response.

But God forgives continually and completely without counting the cost, before we respond, in spite of our lack of response, and in spite of our continuing inadequacy.
Faith is our decision to respond to him, not the arrival at perfection. It is the acceptance of God’s offer. We do not earn God’s loving forgiveness through repentance. If we had to earn it, none of us would see his face.
God is love.

Clem said it far more elegantly than I, but yes, God forgives even when we don’t ask for forgiveness. God does want our repentance and as Catholics we have to wonderful sacrament of reconciliation to facilitate our repentance.

I’ve had people hurt me in the past, one tried to ruin my career. None of them asked for forgiveness nor said they were sorry for what they had done. I had to forgive them anyway. Because I love God more than I loved any resentment I held for them, I forgave. Because God wants more for me than bitterness and hate, I forgave. I do not want to have any type of relationship with most of them, but I do love them as brothers & sisters in Christ.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

God’s forgiveness is a gift. We don’t cause him to be forgiving. He is the cause of it and the constant giver of it. The quote from the catechism several posts ago points this out.

He offers it. It is a gift, it is not earned. The cross is the price of his mercy. The cross is his total and complete gift of Himself in the face of our rejection of him.
To be sure, his gratuitous gift should awaken a response to this initiative. His offer of the gift asks for the response of faith.

While you start with the Truth about God;s gift you then move on to what is not there.
This part.

He offers it. It is a gift, it is not earned. The cross is the price of his mercy. The cross is his total and complete gift of Himself in the face of our rejection of him.
To be sure, his gratuitous gift should awaken a response to this initiative. His offer of the gift asks for the response of faith

Is incredibly Calvinist sounding to me. I’m wondering if you are influenced by that in some way.
As Catholics we believe in both Faith AND Works, so repentance and forgiveness are indeed tied to some sort of action on our part. In baptism (the larger way of removing sin and finding forgiveness.) the action is plain to see. Likewise to be forgiven the penitent in confession MUST amend and turn away from sin. Remember that whole binding and loosing thing? Well here is the thing, if God’s gift has no action from the recipient required other than holding a hand out then that whole “binding” aspect would not need to be included. Amendment is not a sign of forgiveness it is a key ingredient.

982 There is no offense, however serious, that the Church cannot forgive. "There is no one, however wicked and guilty, who may not confidently hope for forgiveness, provided his repentance is honest.529 Christ who died for all men desires that in his Church the gates of forgiveness should always be open to anyone **who turns away from sin.**530

Bolding mine.
So you can see that the Church is quite clear that this gift requires something and that God requires a turning away. An amendment. A sorrow.

1448 Beneath the changes in discipline and celebration that this sacrament has undergone over the centuries, the same fundamental structure is to be discerned. It comprises two equally essential elements: on the one hand, the acts of the man who undergoes conversion through the action of the Holy Spirit: namely, contrition, confession, and satisfaction; on the other, God’s action through the intervention of the Church. The Church, who through the bishop and his priests forgives sins in the name of Jesus Christ and determines the manner of satisfaction, also prays for the sinner and does penance with him. Thus the sinner is healed and re-established in ecclesial communion.

1450 "Penance requires . . . the sinner to endure all things willingly, be contrite of heart, confess with the lips, and practice complete humility and fruitful satisfaction."49

Contrition

1451 Among the penitent’s acts contrition occupies first place. Contrition is "sorrow of the soul and detestation for the sin committed, together with the resolution not to sin again."50

1452 When it arises from a love by which God is loved above all else, contrition is called “perfect” (contrition of charity). Such contrition remits venial sins; it also obtains forgiveness of mortal sins if it includes the firm resolution to have recourse to sacramental confession as soon as possible.51

1453 The contrition called “imperfect” (or “attrition”) is also a gift of God, a prompting of the Holy Spirit. It is born of the consideration of sin’s ugliness or the fear of eternal damnation and the other penalties threatening the sinner (contrition of fear). Such a stirring of conscience can initiate an interior process which, under the prompting of grace, will be brought to completion by sacramental absolution. By itself however, imperfect contrition cannot obtain the forgiveness of grave sins, but it disposes one to obtain forgiveness in the sacrament of Penance.52

As you can see. While yes, God offers this free gift to us, there is a method and a requirement to achieve it.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Yes

Clem said it far more elegantly than I, but yes, God forgives even when we don’t ask for forgiveness. God does want our repentance and as Catholics we have to wonderful sacrament of reconciliation to facilitate our repentance.

I’ve had people hurt me in the past, one tried to ruin my career. None of them asked for forgiveness nor said they were sorry for what they had done. I had to forgive them anyway. Because I love God more than I loved any resentment I held for them, I forgave. Because God wants more for me than bitterness and hate, I forgave. I do not want to have any type of relationship with most of them, but I do love them as brothers & sisters in Christ.

This is simply not a Catholic theological view. And it probably explains short confession lines. But no. If God forgave without our asking there would have been no need for a savior to take the place of the Jewish animal sacrifices and offerings. It is an incomplete understanding of sin and RELATIONSHIP with God. Relationship requires a two part reciprocal thing.

Note, I am not saying that forgiving the unrepentant is not a good idea. In fact in many cases it can be the healthiest best thing to do. But God himself offers his forgiveness to us in a relationship form and that is not a one way street.
We are not bound to morally forgive those who sin against us and do not seek forgiveness. This type of thinking has been used by many fundamentalist sects to actually blame the abused or wronged victims. That they MUST forgive or else they are in danger of being accused by God. This is not theological.
Are you familiar with Goddard? The fundamental religious leader whom people like the Duggars have used to cover up wrongdoings. Putting a requirement like forgiveness on the innocent and tying it to morality is a sick way of blaming the victim and moving responsibility from the offender. This is not only a problem with abuse that is physical but in all sin which by it’s very nature abuses us.

 

[clem456]

While you start with the Truth about God;s gift you then move on to what is not there.
This part.

Is incredibly Calvinist sounding to me. I’m wondering if you are influenced by that in some way.
As Catholics we believe in both Faith AND Works, so repentance and forgiveness are indeed tied to some sort of action on our part. In baptism (the larger way of removing sin and finding forgiveness.) the action is plain to see. Likewise to be forgiven the penitent in confession MUST amend and turn away from sin. Remember that whole binding and loosing thing? Well here is the thing, if God’s gift has no action from the recipient required other than holding a hand out then that whole “binding” aspect would not need to be included. Amendment is not a sign of forgiveness it is a key ingredient.

Bolding mine.
So you can see that the Church is quite clear that this gift requires something and that God requires a turning away. An amendment. A sorrow.

As you can see. While yes, God offers this free gift to us, there is a method and a requirement to achieve it.

You’re conflating the reality of God’s forgiveness with other things.
The gift is the gift. It is just that. He does not ask us whether we are worthy of forgiveness, or have worked hard enough for it. He offers it.
Look at the incarnation. Look at the cross. What more evidence do we need that God is love, gives everything in merciful forgiveness. His is the initiative. He risks being abused when he offers, and he is abused. But still he offers forgiveness.

Romano Guardini in his book on the “Our Father” talks about forgiveness being like an electrical current. It is given by God, it is accepted, responded to, and passed on to others. If we don’t accept, or if we don’t give it to others, we have broken with it. But:
God is never the “dead terminal” in this current. He is always alive with forgiveness.

Not all respond. Simple as that. Nothing Calvinist about the Church’s position whatsoever.

 

[porthos11]

There is a difference between forgiveness, and justification/attaining salvation/union with God etc… That all requires our response.

But God forgives continually and completely without counting the cost, before we respond, in spite of our lack of response, and in spite of our continuing inadequacy.
Faith is our decision to respond to him, not the arrival at perfection. It is the acceptance of God’s offer. We do not earn God’s loving forgiveness through repentance. If we had to earn it, none of us would see his face.
God is love.

No, that doesn’t make sense.

If what you say is true, there wouldn’t be those on the goat-side at the judgment. But there are, so we must conclude that they are unforgiven.

There is nothing in Catholic teaching that tells us God automatically forgives. Rather, what is clear is that forgiveness is contingent upon our response to his grace.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

You’re conflating the reality of God’s forgiveness with other things.
The gift is the gift. It is just that. He does not ask us whether we are worthy of forgiveness, or have worked hard enough for it. He offers it.
Look at the incarnation. Look at the cross. What more evidence do we need that God is love, gives everything in merciful forgiveness.
Romano Guardini in his book on the “Our Father” talks about forgiveness being like an electrical current. It is given by God, it is accepted, responded to, and passed on to others. If we don’t accept, or if we don’t give it to others, we have broken with it. But:
God is never the “dead terminal” in this current. He is always alive with forgiveness.

Not all respond. Simple as that. Nothing Calvinist about the Church’s position whatsoever.

So your issue is with the CCC and not me then. I have posted the relevant parts. Actually, if you wish to insist that your view is Catholic then it should jive with the Catholic Catechism. And it should jive with salvation history and the Bible. It does not.

And after this weekends readings, and the upcoming Lenten ones including ash Wednesday perhaps we all should reflect more on what “forgiveness” is.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

In acts chapter 3 we have

…18"But the things which God announced beforehand by the mouth of all the prophets, that His Christ would suffer, He has thus fulfilled. 19"Therefore repent and return, so that your sins may be wiped away, in order that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord; 20and that He may send Jesus, the Christ appointed for you,…

Repent is not the same as “accept this free gift if you wish to or not.”

 

[Eric_Hyom]

Again, thanks so much to all of you for your thoughtful and well-considered opinions. What I am looking for is a definitive answer to this question from the Catechism or from a Magisterial document. I have not been able to find one, and it seems no one here is able to provide one. I am getting to the point of concluding that there is simply no definitive statement from the Church on this point. Thank you all again.

Just a thought, we are given the greatest commandments, which means we can do nothing greater than love God and love our neighbours as ourselves.

If we don’t forgive, then how do we continue to love the unrepentant as we love ourselves?
Anything less than loving our neighbour as ourselves is not the greatest thing we can do.

When Jesus spent his time on Earth, he would have lived by the greatest commandments; this would have been the greatest way he could respond to each and every situation in his life. But how did Jesus love all his neighbours as he loved himself, Judas who betrayed him, the soldiers who nailed him to the cross? We know that he prayed on the cross, ‘forgive them Father’

Could forgiveness hang and depend on the greatest commandments?

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Just a thought, we are given the greatest commandments, which means we can do nothing greater than love God and love our neighbours as ourselves.

If we don’t forgive, then how do we continue to love the unrepentant as we love ourselves?
Anything less than loving our neighbour as ourselves is not the greatest thing we can do.

When Jesus spent his time on Earth, he would have lived by the greatest commandments; this would have been the greatest way he could respond to each and every situation in his life. But how did Jesus love all his neighbours as he loved himself, Judas who betrayed him, the soldiers who nailed him to the cross? We know that he prayed on the cross, ‘forgive them Father’

Could forgiveness hang and depend on the greatest commandments?

Interesting…
That is not something I have considered but off the top of my head a couple things come to mind. One is the idea of tying forgiveness to an all inclusive “neighbor”. And two is the condemnation of the innocent victim. An innocent victim MUST do something in return to become righteous again? Also this seems to play into the theology of universal salvation and negates the idea that judgement does indeed take into account your actions and inactions not just your willingness to be pardoned.

I think the mistake is in the idea that somehow judgement = bad and mercy always = good. And the two oppose each other.
The phrase loving someone to hell comes to mind s well.

 

[clem456]

No, that doesn’t make sense.

If what you say is true, there wouldn’t be those on the goat-side at the judgment. But there are, so we must conclude that they are unforgiven.

There is nothing in Catholic teaching that tells us God automatically forgives. Rather, what is clear is that forgiveness is contingent upon our response to his grace.

Conflation of forgiveness with other things, like attainment of salvation.
You and Hoosier both.

God’s forgiveness is not automatic.
It is not a free pass to heaven.
It is not an inoculation against sin,

 

[clem456]

So your issue is with the CCC and not me then. I have posted the relevant parts. Actually, if you wish to insist that your view is Catholic then it should jive with the Catholic Catechism. And it should jive with salvation history and the Bible. It does not.

And after this weekends readings, and the upcoming Lenten ones including ash Wednesday perhaps we all should reflect more on what “forgiveness” is.

It’s already been referenced in the catechism that God’s forgiveness is his initiative.

CCC:
Justification follows upon God’s merciful initiative of offering forgiveness

What do you find confusing here?
You are going out of your way to bend the catechism to prove other points that are tangential. I think what you are doing is providing an argument against presumption, which is fine.

No one is debating that the unrepentant do not experience God’s forgiveness, or that the unrepentant do not attain salvation, or are not justified, or live outside God’s forgiveness. The gift lies unopened on their doorstep. But nonetheless, the gift is there.

Still, God offers forgiveness as the initiative of grace to all people. To say anything else runs afoul of basic Christian doctrine.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

It’s already been referenced in the catechism that God’s forgiveness is his initiative.

What do you find confusing here?
You are going out of your way to bend the catechism to prove other points that are tangential. I think what you are doing is providing an argument against presumption, which is fine.

No one is debating that the unrepentant do not experience God’s forgiveness, or that the unrepentant do not attain salvation, or are not justified, or live outside God’s forgiveness. The gift lies unopened on their doorstep. But nonetheless, the gift is there.

Still, God offers forgiveness as the initiative of grace to all people. To say anything else runs afoul of basic Christian doctrine.

Perhaps we are talking past eachother here.
How about this statement. God offers his forgiveness to all. To accept it and be forgiven we must repent.

 

[Art321]

It’s already been referenced in the catechism that God’s forgiveness is his initiative.

What do you find confusing here?
You are going out of your way to bend the catechism to prove other points that are tangential. I think what you are doing is providing an argument against presumption, which is fine.

No one is debating that the unrepentant do not experience God’s forgiveness, or that the unrepentant do not attain salvation, or are not justified, or live outside God’s forgiveness. The gift lies unopened on their doorstep. But nonetheless, the gift is there.

Still, God offers forgiveness as the initiative of grace to all people. To say anything else runs afoul of basic Christian doctrine.

I’ve been following this thread and while I do believe I’ve read most of the responses, I do happen to agree with Hoosier Daddy and I don’t completely disagree with you though.

As you say, the mercy of God is there for everyone to attain though for everyone to truly take advantage of it, we must approach God with repentance. It is only through repentance that our sins are truly washed away and His mercy is realized, thus coming back into His fold and His Truth!

I feel we are simply repeating our words here.

God bless.

 

[Art321]

Perhaps we are talking past eachother here.
How about this statement. God offers his forgiveness to all. To accept it and be forgiven we must repent.

LOL!

You beat me to it!

 

[porthos11]

Conflation of forgiveness with other things, like attainment of salvation.
You and Hoosier both.

God’s forgiveness is not automatic.
It is not a free pass to heaven.
It is not an inoculation against sin,

No, I think you are the one conflating. You are conflating the offer of forgiveness with the actual act of forgiveness itself.

The offer of forgiveness is grace; that is always God’s initiative and is unmerited.

The accomplishment, if you could call it that, of forgiveness, that is, the forgiveness being applied to the sinner is contingent upon the sinner’s free response to that grace. Forgiveness is imparted upon perfect contrition or sacramental absolution, but the contrition itself is one’s free response to God’s offer of forgiveness. God always offers forgiveness, but not all are forgiven.

 

[clem456]

No, I think you are the one conflating. You are conflating the offer of forgiveness with the actual act of forgiveness itself.

The offer of forgiveness is grace; that is always God’s initiative and is unmerited.

The accomplishment, if you could call it that, of forgiveness, that is, the forgiveness being applied to the sinner is contingent upon the sinner’s free response to that grace. Forgiveness is imparted upon perfect contrition or sacramental absolution, but the contrition itself is one’s free response to God’s offer of forgiveness. God always offers forgiveness, but not all are forgiven.

Then let’s use the correct terms. There are three of us basically saying the same thing in theory, but the Church expresses it one way. In the context of whether or not forgiveness is offered gratuitously to the unrepentant, and whether we are required to model this act, the answer is definitively “yes” in Catholic theology.

You use the term:
“Forgiveness applied”
What should we call that?
Justification.
From the chapter on justification:

Moved by grace, man turns toward God and away from sin, thus accepting forgiveness and righteousness from on high.
…
Justification follows upon God’s merciful initiative of offering forgiveness.

Forgiveness is always offered, even to the most hardened siinner. God is forgiving.
God being merciful and forgiving is not the same thing as obtaining absolution, and is not the same thing as attaining salvation…etc…

Really the end point of all this is, in regards to properly evangelizing people and answering the question of this thread:
no one should ever doubt the reality of God’s forgiveness. No one should wonder if they are worthy of it. No one should wonder if they have done enough to earn it. It is not earned. It is freely given, and we must freely give it to others, as God offers it to us…pre-repentance. If a person repents, great, glory to God.