Q
qui_est_ce
Guest
Please do not confuse Believers with the facts. Believers takes great liberties in filling in what’s not actually in history so that he can fit God into the word according to man (himself).
- Status
M
Mannyfit75
Guest
I wouldn’t call them heretics or protesters. I consider them misguided Christians who are not in full communion with Rome, who have distorted Scripture to fit their own set of beliefs. They pick and choose chapter and verses in the Bible and take it out of context. Likewise, they also take writings of the ECF, and Vatican Documents, and Papal Encyclicals and put them out of context.We can always run to Mannyfit75, whenever we are perplexed by certain statements by protesters or heretics. He know’s his stuff.
As the end result, you have an incomplete view of the Word of God from the mind of a Protestant who adhere to Sola Scriptura and Sola Fidelis. Rather than put Sacred Scripture, and Sacred Tradition as One voice of the Word of God, whom the Church, has the only right to interpret them correctly. What you have is a partially completely Christianity with missing parts of doctrines.
Catholicism on the other hand is 100% Truthful in Her teaching office on moral and faith. Eastern Orthodox have it 90% since they lack the Pope as source of their unity. Protestantism is more fragmented kind of Christianity and evolved itself by changing certain sit of beliefs.
For example, some Protestant Churches now ordain bishops, and ordain openly gay priests or lesbians, which the Church leaders doesn’t seem to condemned except by a few Traditionalist.
While there are some rumors that some Catholic priests are homosexual, they cannot openly professed it otherwise they will be suspended such as the case of the Italian priest in the Vatican who fess up his homosexuality and got administrative suspension. Homosexual priests in the Catholic Church I think ought to practice celibacy and not adhere to the temptation of homosexual activity.
The Church officially no longer welcome homosexual in their seminaries and would take proper action if one is caught. It’s almost like an Don’t ask, don’t tell policy. I know Pope Benedict XVI has approved document that **bans gays **entrying into the seminaries. I don’t know how this is enforced, but I will soon find out. My vacation director said that candidates are screen carefully if individuals have SSA and if they are found, they will not be recommended for priesthood.
J
justinthemartyr
Guest
where you are constantly performing works and reciting memorized words like a pharisee in an attempt to earn your grace, earn your love from Jesus, earn your way into heaven. The Bible has no meaning to you, so you can follow your personal whims because you have decided that men know more than the LORD.]
RESPONSE-Actually Emily, I was following my whim with Bible churches that interpreted scripture the way they wanted to, like the burger king church, have it your way. That is contrary to scripture and church teaching. Scripture never claims to be the authority of God solely, but He gave us a church which guides us with scripture equally, just as we see in the book of Acts
The same exact church that gave the world the canon of inspired scripture, but you would not know that since you don’t even know what the Catholic church teaches regarding Mary.[You do not know Jesus, friend. You are living in deception, and I know this because you are not worshipping the LORD in spirit and truth, which is to follow His one and only WORD. I feel sorry for you, you have returned to wallow in the mire from which you were once washed.]
Yes His One and Only Word, in His one and only church, as he stated in His own words, one flock, one shepherd, called to be one as He and the Father are one, one Lord, one faith one baptism, one God and Father of all, with no divisions among you, and to avoid dissenters, such as yourself Emily.
Thanks for the judgement.
**Deceptions of False Teachers
For when they speak great swelling words of emptiness, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through lewdness, the ones who have actually escaped from those who live in error. While they promise them liberty, they themselves are slaves of corruption; for by whom a person is overcome, by him also he is brought into bondage. For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them. But it has happened to them according to the true proverb: “A dog returns to his own vomit,” and, “a sow, having washed, to her wallowing in the mire.”**
Is this a definition of your burger king church Emily?
I’d quote where this is in the bible, but why bother, since its just a meaningless book thats NOT the one and only inerrant Word of God, right?
Why bother cracking open the bible when you can just turn to a page in the misilette once a week for 20 minutes, make the sign of the cross and go through all the little rituals to redeem yourself in an empty, lifeless church that uses the name of Jesus Christ to fleece the flock.RESPONSE-Where was your church in every century, and their preachers and their saints and their teachings in every century according to scripture Emily? I don’t see anything like it until the past 2-300 years. a bit too late to be the Church. Christs one church has been here since he built it upon cephas almost 2000 years ago. where was your church in the first 1700 years?
“But as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.” Jesus’ GRACE is enough for me. I don’t need to “earn” my way into Heaven by saying the rosary, or committing to first Fridays, or trying to become the next Mother Theresa because my works are like filthy rags (or so says the meaningless bible you don’t believe in), and His job was finished when He breathed His last breath on the cross (at least, according to that worthless bible). I’m redeemed by Jesus’ blood, I don’t need to jump through any cheap, man-made Catholic hoops. I am saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ.
james 2:24
so we see that a man is saved by works and not by faith alone.
B
believers
Guest
Why don’t you post the scriptures leading up to that verse to get the meaning IN CONTEXT. It amazes me to no end how Catholics take that one verse ALONE to prove salvation by works. That is not what it says… We show our faith BY our works (of love). We don’t do (religious rituals/good deeds) works to be saved.james 2:24
Jam 2:15-16
If a brother or sister be naked, ** and destitute of daily food**, And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be [ye] warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what [doth it] profit?
Jam 2:17
Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
Jam 2:18
Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and** I will shew thee my faith BY my works**
E
East_and_West
Guest
What you have posted only bolsters our argument. “See how a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.” James 2:24
J
Joey1976
Guest
Then how do you reconcile what this original poster said. That there are all these denominations that say there are coming straight from the Bible and they all teach different things and contradict each other and Churches split over one Bible verse because of the way hey interpret this. Sola Scriptura is not in the Bible and it is proven that it doesn’t work. How do you reconcile all these denominations teaching different things? I bet your Church is the only one that has it correct, right? The Church down the street from yours that teaches something different is wrong though, right? And how do you know this for sure, how do you know that is one is not correct and yours is right? It is just your opinion, that’s it. I don’t know how anyone can reconcile Sola Scriptura with what it has done by spittign Christians apart. Please explain how you reconcile this in your mind?
J
justinthemartyr
Guest
Yes, and it seems he forgot to mention that everything Christ said and did(most) is not recorded in scripture and therefore it cannot be the sole authority of God. Without the Sacred Tradition of the Church Christ established, there would be no Bible for the bible never lists the inspired books which belong in it it took the one church he established to decide by the power of the Holy Spirit working through it.
very good post Joey.
very good post Joey.
N
ncgolf
Guest
I would be amazed too … if the Church actually taught salvation by works. It does not nor has ever taught salvation by works. Works are important … I love the line in James 2:21 …“Do you want proof, you ignoramus, that faith without works is useless?”.
Please show anywhere in the Catechism that shows we believe in salvation by works … a little clue (you wont find it) but go ahead. This is not to say that this is misunderstood by Catholics or even misstated by Catholics but the Church does not teach this doctrine.
Don’t mix up Catholics with what the Catholic Church teaches.
However we are not saved by faith alone either. James is explicit in the fact that we are not saved by faith alone. Neither is sufficient on its own … faith without works nor works without faith.
Show me where you see faith and alone in the Bible? Answer: James 2:24 “See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.”
Do you believe in a faith alone?
M
Mannyfit75
Guest
We do act out our faith out of love. It is the love of neighbor that we even do good deeds.
The beautitudes made this plainly clear, and you sometimes why Jesus taught us these good deeds.
*]Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
*]Blessed are the meek: for they shall posses the land.
*]Blessed are they who mourn: for they shall be comforted.
*]Blessed are they that hunger and thirst after justice: for they shall have their fill.
*]Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.
*]Blessed are the clean of heart: for they shall see God.
*]Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.
*]Blessed are they that suffer persecution for justice’ sake, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
M
Mannyfit75
Guest
Let us take a look at the first Beatitude.
First Beatitude
The word poor seems to represent an Aramaic
Second Beatitude
Inasmuch as poverty is a state of humble subjection, the “poor in spirit”, come near to the “meek”, the subject of the second blessing. The anawim, they who humbly and meekly bend themselves down before God and man, shall “inherit the land” and posses their inheritance in peace. This is a phrase taken from Psalm 36:11, where it refers to the Promised Land of Israel, but here in the words of Christ, it is of course but a symbol of the Kingdom of Heaven, the spiritual realm of the Messiah. Not a few interpreters, however, understand “the earth”. But they overlook the original meaning of Psalm 36:11, and unless, by a far-fetched expedient, they take the earth also to be a symbol of the Messianic kingdom, it will be hard to explain the possession of the earth in a satisfactory way.
Third Beatitude
The “mourning” in the Third Beatitude is in Luke (6:25) opposed to laughter and similar frivolous worldly joy. Motives of mourning are not to be drawn from the miseries of a life of poverty, abjection, and subjection, which are the very blessings of verse 3, but rather from those miseries from which the pious man is suffering in himself and in others, and most of all the tremendous might of evil throughout the world. To such mourners the Lord Jesus carries the comfort of the heavenly kingdom, “the consolation of Israel” (Luke 2:25) foretold by the prophets, and especially by the Book of Consolation of Isaias (11-16). Even the later Jews knew the Messiah by the name of Menahhem, Consoler. These three blessings, poverty, abjection, and subjection are a commendation of what nowadays are called the passive virtues: abstinence and endurace, and the Eighth Beatitude (verse 10) leads us back again to the teaching.
Fourth Beatitude
The others, however, demand a more active behaviour. First of all, “hunger and thirst” after justice: a strong and continuous desire of progress in religious and moral perfection, the reward of which will be the very fulfilment of the desire, the continuous growth in holiness.
First Beatitude
The word poor seems to represent an Aramaic
ányâ (Hebrew anî), bent down, afflicted, miserable, poor; while meek is rather a synonym from the same root, ánwan (Hebrew ánaw), bending oneself down, humble, meek, gentle. Some scholars would attach to the former word also the sense of humility; others think of “beggars before God” humbly acknowledging their need of Divine help. But the opposition of “rich” (Luke 6:24) points especially to the common and obvious meaning, which, however, ought not to be confined to economical need and distress, but may comprehend the whole of the painful condition of the poor: their low estate, their social dependence, their defenceless exposure to injustice from the rich and the mighty. Besides the Lord’s blessing, the promise of the heavenly kingdom is not bestowed on the actual external condition of such poverty. The blessed ones are the poor “in spirit”, who by their free will are ready to bear for God’s sake this painful and humble condition, even though at present they be actually rich and happy; while on the other hand, the really poor man may fall short of this poverty “in spirit”.Second Beatitude
Inasmuch as poverty is a state of humble subjection, the “poor in spirit”, come near to the “meek”, the subject of the second blessing. The anawim, they who humbly and meekly bend themselves down before God and man, shall “inherit the land” and posses their inheritance in peace. This is a phrase taken from Psalm 36:11, where it refers to the Promised Land of Israel, but here in the words of Christ, it is of course but a symbol of the Kingdom of Heaven, the spiritual realm of the Messiah. Not a few interpreters, however, understand “the earth”. But they overlook the original meaning of Psalm 36:11, and unless, by a far-fetched expedient, they take the earth also to be a symbol of the Messianic kingdom, it will be hard to explain the possession of the earth in a satisfactory way.
Third Beatitude
The “mourning” in the Third Beatitude is in Luke (6:25) opposed to laughter and similar frivolous worldly joy. Motives of mourning are not to be drawn from the miseries of a life of poverty, abjection, and subjection, which are the very blessings of verse 3, but rather from those miseries from which the pious man is suffering in himself and in others, and most of all the tremendous might of evil throughout the world. To such mourners the Lord Jesus carries the comfort of the heavenly kingdom, “the consolation of Israel” (Luke 2:25) foretold by the prophets, and especially by the Book of Consolation of Isaias (11-16). Even the later Jews knew the Messiah by the name of Menahhem, Consoler. These three blessings, poverty, abjection, and subjection are a commendation of what nowadays are called the passive virtues: abstinence and endurace, and the Eighth Beatitude (verse 10) leads us back again to the teaching.
Fourth Beatitude
The others, however, demand a more active behaviour. First of all, “hunger and thirst” after justice: a strong and continuous desire of progress in religious and moral perfection, the reward of which will be the very fulfilment of the desire, the continuous growth in holiness.
M
Mannyfit75
Guest
Fifth Beatitude
From this interior desire a further step should be taken to acting to the works of “mercy”, corporal and spiritual. Through these the merciful will obtain the Divine mercy of the Messianic kingdom, in this life and in the final judgment. The wonderful fertility of the Church in works and institutions of corporal and spiritual mercy of every kind shows the prophetical sense, not to say the creative power, of this simple word of the Divine Teacher.
Sixth Beatitude
According to biblical terminology, “cleanness of heart” (verse 8) cannot exclusively be found in interior chastity, nor even, as many scholars propose, in a genral purity of conscience, as opposed to the Levitical, or legal, purity required by the Scribes and Pharisees. At least the proper place of such a blessing does not seem to be between mercy (verse 7) and peacemaking (verse 9), nor after the apparently more far-reaching virtue of hunger and thirst after justice. But frequently in the Old and New Testaments (Genesis 20:5; Job 33:3, Psalms 23:4 (24:4) and 72:1 (73:1); 1 Timothy 1:5; 2 Timothy 2:22) the “pure heart” is the simple and sincere good intention, the “single eye” of Matthew 6:22, and thus opposed to the unavowed by-ends of the Pharisees (Matthew 6:1-6, 16-18; 7:15; 23:5-7, 14) This “single eye” or “pure heart” is most of all required in the works of mercy (verse 7) and zeal (verse 9) in behalf of one’s neighbor. And it stands to reason that the blessing, promised to this continuous looking for God’s glory, should consist of the supernatural “seeing” of God Himself, the last aim and end of the heavenly kingdom in its completion.
Seventh Beatitude
The “peacemakers” (verse 9) are those who not only live in peace with others but moreover do their best to preserve peace and friendship among mankind and between God and man, and to restore it when it has been disturbed. It is on account of this godly work, “an imitating of God’s love of man” as St. Gregory of Nyssa styles it, that they shall be called the sons of God, “children of your Father who is in heaven” (Matthew 5:45).
Eighth Beatitude
When after all this the pious disciples of Christ are repaid with ingratitude and even “persecution” (verse 10) it will be but a new blessing, “for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.”
So, by an inclusion, not uncommon in biblical poetry, the last blessing goes back to the first and the second. The pious, whose sentiments and desires whose works and sufferings are held up before us, shall be blessed and happy by their share in the Messianic kingdom, here and hereafter. And viewed in the intermediate verses seem to express, in partial images of the one endless beatitude, the same possession of the Messianic salvation. The eight conditions required constitute the fundamental law of the kingdom, the very pith and marrow of Christian perfection. For its depth and breadth of thought, and its practical bearing on Christian life, the passage may be put on a level with the Decalogue in the Old, and the Lord’s Prayer in the New Testament, and it surpassed both in its poetical beauty of structure.
Clearly, Jesus demands us to love one another. How do we we act out our love. We do so by the love of neighbor, and helping others.
newadvent.org/cathen/02371a.htm
Key points and question: What is the reason for having Jesus tell us about the beatitudes. There is a reason behind it. The world lacks love. It has neglected God, and some of those who claim to be Bible Believing Christians tend to distort the Word of God and cut it pieces by conforming to new set of beliefs such as faith alone.
Jesus preached the Blessed are the… and in Matthew 25, when the Son of Man comes in glory, we will be judged by our deeds, not by faith alone.
From this interior desire a further step should be taken to acting to the works of “mercy”, corporal and spiritual. Through these the merciful will obtain the Divine mercy of the Messianic kingdom, in this life and in the final judgment. The wonderful fertility of the Church in works and institutions of corporal and spiritual mercy of every kind shows the prophetical sense, not to say the creative power, of this simple word of the Divine Teacher.
Sixth Beatitude
According to biblical terminology, “cleanness of heart” (verse 8) cannot exclusively be found in interior chastity, nor even, as many scholars propose, in a genral purity of conscience, as opposed to the Levitical, or legal, purity required by the Scribes and Pharisees. At least the proper place of such a blessing does not seem to be between mercy (verse 7) and peacemaking (verse 9), nor after the apparently more far-reaching virtue of hunger and thirst after justice. But frequently in the Old and New Testaments (Genesis 20:5; Job 33:3, Psalms 23:4 (24:4) and 72:1 (73:1); 1 Timothy 1:5; 2 Timothy 2:22) the “pure heart” is the simple and sincere good intention, the “single eye” of Matthew 6:22, and thus opposed to the unavowed by-ends of the Pharisees (Matthew 6:1-6, 16-18; 7:15; 23:5-7, 14) This “single eye” or “pure heart” is most of all required in the works of mercy (verse 7) and zeal (verse 9) in behalf of one’s neighbor. And it stands to reason that the blessing, promised to this continuous looking for God’s glory, should consist of the supernatural “seeing” of God Himself, the last aim and end of the heavenly kingdom in its completion.
Seventh Beatitude
The “peacemakers” (verse 9) are those who not only live in peace with others but moreover do their best to preserve peace and friendship among mankind and between God and man, and to restore it when it has been disturbed. It is on account of this godly work, “an imitating of God’s love of man” as St. Gregory of Nyssa styles it, that they shall be called the sons of God, “children of your Father who is in heaven” (Matthew 5:45).
Eighth Beatitude
When after all this the pious disciples of Christ are repaid with ingratitude and even “persecution” (verse 10) it will be but a new blessing, “for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.”
So, by an inclusion, not uncommon in biblical poetry, the last blessing goes back to the first and the second. The pious, whose sentiments and desires whose works and sufferings are held up before us, shall be blessed and happy by their share in the Messianic kingdom, here and hereafter. And viewed in the intermediate verses seem to express, in partial images of the one endless beatitude, the same possession of the Messianic salvation. The eight conditions required constitute the fundamental law of the kingdom, the very pith and marrow of Christian perfection. For its depth and breadth of thought, and its practical bearing on Christian life, the passage may be put on a level with the Decalogue in the Old, and the Lord’s Prayer in the New Testament, and it surpassed both in its poetical beauty of structure.
Clearly, Jesus demands us to love one another. How do we we act out our love. We do so by the love of neighbor, and helping others.
newadvent.org/cathen/02371a.htm
Key points and question: What is the reason for having Jesus tell us about the beatitudes. There is a reason behind it. The world lacks love. It has neglected God, and some of those who claim to be Bible Believing Christians tend to distort the Word of God and cut it pieces by conforming to new set of beliefs such as faith alone.
Jesus preached the Blessed are the… and in Matthew 25, when the Son of Man comes in glory, we will be judged by our deeds, not by faith alone.
M
MarcoPolo
Guest
Reading this thread…some interesting stuff. These are beautiful citations from Scripture. All very Catholic. We use Scripture to teach, it is very profitable, useful, it contains the Word of God, etc… But of course none of these verses say the Bible is the sole rule of faith. To suggest that is to add to these verses. Ironic?
Also, believers, I fear you are using the “Word” = “Bible only” fallacy. While the Bible contains the Word of God, the Word of God is not exclusive to the Bible.
Q
qui_est_ce
Guest
T
thessalonian
Guest
If you only got 18 different replies about Baptism that’s not bad. According to the Catholic Encyclopedia in the 1800’s I think it was there was a book written called “200 Interpretations of This is My Body”. Not kidding.
M
Mannyfit75
Guest
Thanks new Advent from that.
Thanks for that beautiful analyis.
J
justinthemartyr
Guest
no doubt there were, after the explosion satan caused with the revolt of Luther and everyone privately interpreting scripture and making their own church on every street corner. After all, sola scriptura did cause the rise of even the anglican church which was founded on the belief that you can divorce and then murder your wife. amazing what satan does which seems to be seemingly good on the surface yet rips apart entire societies and souls.
the church of bob, the church of anything, the little church that could…
H
homewardbound
Guest
Good. Neither do Catholics. Catholics do good works to glorify God. Glad there’s some agreement.
Faith without works is dead, works without faith is dead. Can’t just have one of the two, must have both.
R
Risorgimento
Guest
In reading all of these posts, I hurt at the banter and anger arised between Protestants and Catholics. I makes me sad that we as Christians are so divided.
That being said, I know we are supposed to spread the Word of Jesus Christ and the Truth to people, but its almost a waste among the hard-line Bible-beating Protestants. They have their minds all made up. Let’s not throw pearls to swine. Try working on the fence sitters, like Anglicans and Episcopalians, at least they give the appearance of caring about Church tradition and the Eucharist and the Saints.
Protestants are just what they sound like…PROTESTants. They are protesting the one-true Church, The most holy and sacred ROMAN Catholic Church. Anyway, I was one of these anti-Catholic/ pro-Reformation types myself. I resisted Catholicism for the longest time. But whoever said its all about logic and reason was right. I first came to my Catholic epiphany when I was sitting in my medieval history class in college at a secular, big state university. I’ll have to share my conversion another time, but it doesn’t take a rocket scientist to put the pieces of the puzzel together that lead “Home to Rome”. Praise God I’m Catholic. (and don’t get to worked up over these sola-scriptura nut-jobs…at least their Christians and we all need to ban together as much as we can in this increasingly evil and secular society and age.
P.S. That is a beautiful conversion story.
That being said, I know we are supposed to spread the Word of Jesus Christ and the Truth to people, but its almost a waste among the hard-line Bible-beating Protestants. They have their minds all made up. Let’s not throw pearls to swine. Try working on the fence sitters, like Anglicans and Episcopalians, at least they give the appearance of caring about Church tradition and the Eucharist and the Saints.
Protestants are just what they sound like…PROTESTants. They are protesting the one-true Church, The most holy and sacred ROMAN Catholic Church. Anyway, I was one of these anti-Catholic/ pro-Reformation types myself. I resisted Catholicism for the longest time. But whoever said its all about logic and reason was right. I first came to my Catholic epiphany when I was sitting in my medieval history class in college at a secular, big state university. I’ll have to share my conversion another time, but it doesn’t take a rocket scientist to put the pieces of the puzzel together that lead “Home to Rome”. Praise God I’m Catholic. (and don’t get to worked up over these sola-scriptura nut-jobs…at least their Christians and we all need to ban together as much as we can in this increasingly evil and secular society and age.
P.S. That is a beautiful conversion story.
Q
qui_est_ce
Guest
Tell us your story. That’s what this thread is for!
B
BayernAnhaenger
Guest
Sweetness.As a protestant(bible church) man I attended over 18 denominations and non denominational denominations
I received a different and contradicting answer from each.
This brought me to the reality of authority and scripture alone.
I then sought the doctrine of sola scriptura in the Bible and found nothing to support it and then went to find the meaning of the word cephas, which is what Jesus named Simon in John 1:42.
I looked it up in the hebrew and aramaic dictonaries at a local college.
It meant rock, large stone…
I then went on a tirade of searches for early christian writings, of which I found the Fathers of the Church in every century in the first 1000 years and was led over the next three years of study into what I believed was the whore of Babylon, the great and abominable church. I was very anti Catholic and I was very angry at God because I swore I would NEVER become Catholic.
I am now at home, no longer in search.
Welcome home!
- Status