My #1 reason for not converting...

[BrewMax]

Charismatic movement is the fruits of the Holy Spirit. I would not surprise if some of these fruits have come within Non-Catholic Christian circles.

However, the Catholic Church itself has been charismatic as well. I heard Fr. Corapi talk about a woman gifted with speaking of tongue. She was also gifted in healing. She healed a person who was physical condition who couldn’t walk.

The Catholic Church I believe is superior. Her teaching authority of faith and morals is very clear. Protestant Church authorities have varies views on the issue on contraception, abortion, homosexuality, euthansia, death penalty, and others.

The Magisterium of the Church has these are immorally evil. Yet, in Protestantism, there is a lack of definitive role. The testimony of the Anglican/Episcopalian Church is divided on the role of homosexuals in the church, or their actions. This cause a division within the conservative and liberal Anglican and Episcopalian.

If this situation had occur in the Catholic Church, the Pope would no doubt revoke the bishops of ordaining openly gay priests or bishop, or execommunicate them.

The other thing that is lacking in Protestantism is the lack of valid Apostolic Succession.

In that sense, Protestantism is inferior form of Christianity.

You are wrong on many counts here sir and certainly lacking in charitable remarks as well.

 

[BrewMax]

That’s great that they have that!! No one doubts that God can and does work outside the confines of the Church - but He is working within it, too! We Catholics have miracles, and tongues, and healings, and all that, and the Truth about Jesus. You would not be leaving anything behind if you were to become a Catholic - there are many Catholics who have these gifts, and even greater gifts, besides. :dancing:

I appreciate the kind way you resonded to this and I do agree with what you said.

 

[Contrabass101]

Hi everybody and thanks for taking time answering my question. There are many and great answers here, and I am not gonna comment on every single one of them, I just want to say, that I have now one less reason for not converting (and a really biggie that is)

Ironically I think one of the things that also has held/holds? me back is that I (sub-consciously) find it arrogant to claim that I know better than many of the very learned and God-fearing Lutheran ministers, theologians etc. around me. I know that is very inconsistent, as it is basically a Catholic argument (“Don’t mess with tradition”) and there are just as many or more wise and God-fearing Catholics… but it’s one of those subconscious things.

• CB

PS: Question from a Pentecostal I met today: “Do Catholics believe in the Holy Spirit?”

 

[Teflon93]

You are wrong on many counts here sir and certainly lacking in charitable remarks as well.

It might help if you point out which points Manny was wrong upon, perhaps in follow on threads.

Might also help if you highlight what is uncharitable in stating a preference for his own faith.

 

[jmcrae]

Hi everybody and thanks for taking time answering my question. There are many and great answers here, and I am not gonna comment on every single one of them, I just want to say, that I have now one less reason for not converting (and a really biggie that is)

Great - so, we’ll be seeing you at RCIA pretty soon?

PS: Question from a Pentecostal I met today: “Do Catholics believe in the Holy Spirit?”

There are some non-Trinitarians who claim that we invented Him!!

 

[bengal_fan]

Try following your own logic—you have no credibility that I can see when throwing out the howlers you do; particularly when these “devastating” anti-Catholic arguments are far more injurious to the Protestant view.

You need to read more history. There is a very good reason why Peter would go to Rome and not Babylon which is apparent to anyone with a passing familiarity with history.

Your misreading of grace, faith, and works displays a continued unfamiliarity with Catholic teaching and Scriptural interpretation. There have been many, many threads on this subject which should set you straight; my point remains that sola fide and sola scriptura are invented doctrines, as should be obvious in that they did not appear till 1,500 years after Christ gave Peter the keys to the Kingdom.

i would love to know what these “howlers” are. i have never said that what the catholic church says is not true. i have simply stated that you cannot get the entirety of what the church teaches from scripture. i am not a sola scripturist and have never said such. i am also not a sola fide but a sola gratia sola fide. i have a very good understanding of what the church teaches as i’ve been studying it from catholic sources for nearly 4 years intensly. i also have a pretty good understanding of history (as i have an MA in the subject) and it is not out of the realm of possibility that Peter went to Babylon AND to Rome. i have never said Peter did not go to Rome. i have said that scripture does not say he went to Rome. again, read the post, understand the post, then respond.

 

[Teflon93]

i would love to know what these “howlers” are.

Wish granted:

the bible is pretty clear that we are saved by grace alone (which every protestant i know, including luther and calvin hold to).

You know Luther and Calvin? You might therefore be acquainted with something called “sola fide”, which is not synonymous with “sola gratia”. EVERY Protestant you know says they are saved via “sola gratia”?

the question comes in how do we receive this grace. the bible again is fairly clear that we receive grace through faith (and it actually takes grace to have faith) (Eph 2:8-9). works MUST spring forth from this faith or the faith is a dead faith according to James. works do not impart grace. works justify our faith and make it more perfect, but it is through faith we receive grace.

Grace either is or is not a gift of God. It is either necessary for faith or it is not. It must either preclude faith or not. This is a complete mishmash of muddled theology.

also, it is extremely possible (and probable) that Christians went to the area known as Babylon. most journeys of that time were rough, but they took them anyway. Thomas travelled all the way to India, why couldn’t Peter have travelled to Babylon? it’s not ridiculous, you are doing the same thing you accuse protestants of doing, interpreting scripture with a bias.

Why couldn’t Christ go to America, as Mormons have said? historians ought to know that evidence is required. They ought also know why Babylon wasn’t a tourist destination in A.D. 33. They ought also know why it was Peter went to Rome in the first place, and ought know why heading to Rome through Antioch makes some sense while heading to Rome through Antioch and Babylon does not. It is ridiculous.

i have a very good understanding of what the church teaches as i’ve been studying it from catholic sources for nearly 4 years intensly.

Perhaps you would have more credibility if you showed you understood what Catholic teaching on grace, faith, and works IS.

i also have a pretty good understanding of history (as i have an MA in the subject) and it is not out of the realm of possibility that Peter went to Babylon AND to Rome. i have never said Peter did not go to Rome. i have said that scripture does not say he went to Rome. again, read the post, understand the post, then respond.

Again, no evidence you understand the history of the period, nor the geography of the region. There are very good reasons why Peter did not want to indicate he was writing from Rome, why he used “Babylon” as the euphemism for it, and why he went to Rome in the first place. It is a willful misreading to claim he in fact was in Babylon at this time. Moreover, what historical evidence is there he ever set foot in Babylon or the surrounding region?

Look at a map.

 

[cargau]

Hi CB,

First, God can and does work through anyone. Hindu, Jew, Buddhist or Protestant, we are all God’s children.

God works through our imperfections. All people are prone to error, misjudgements and sin. God has not abandoned anyone who does not profess Catholicism. Nor does he walk away because we are sinful.

All graces needed for salvation flow through the Catholic Church. They may flow to others not presently members of the Church. This is not an arrogant statement, it is the truth. Jesus Christ started one Church to carry his plan for mankind’s salvation.

We’re not comparing country clubs here. This is about God’s plan for redemption. Not yours, mine or any other denomination.

That is why, as frightful as the priest scandal was, I could not ever consider leaving the faith. Though people within the Church may fall, the Church Herself is perfect as she is guided by the Holy Spirit.

Remember, the Church is not a hotel for saints, it is a hospital for sinners.

 

[po18guy]

Hi everybody and thanks for taking time answering my question. There are many and great answers here, and I am not gonna comment on every single one of them, I just want to say, that I have now one less reason for not converting (and a really biggie that is)

Ironically I think one of the things that also has held/holds? me back is that I (sub-consciously) find it arrogant to claim that I know better than many of the very learned and God-fearing Lutheran ministers, theologians etc. around me. I know that is very inconsistent, as it is basically a Catholic argument (“Don’t mess with tradition”) and there are just as many or more wise and God-fearing Catholics… but it’s one of those subconscious things.

• CB

PS: Question from a Pentecostal I met today: “Do Catholics believe in the Holy Spirit?”

Do not be ashamed of what the Lord reveals to you. You are blessed to have received the revelation. The Catholic Church is the earthly destination of the Christian. Its goal is that Heaven is your eternal destination.

Christ’s peace.

 

[Contarini]

Hi,

I know title is provoking. But seriously, I’m not looking for a fight.

There are many things in Catholicism that I like, and it seems to be the church that makes the most sense compared to others. Dogmas are well-defended and generally plausible.

However, I know so many Christians that are not Catholics (mainly Lutheran Charismatics) yet are on fire for God. I don’t talk about worship-song-i-love-you-jesus on fire, but REALLY on fire, giving their lives to the Lord, trusting in him. And I see God bless them, do miracles through them. I know several prophets and a few that speak in tongues, and some time ago, a miracle somewhat like the one with loaves and fish happened at a church I know.

If I looked solely at teachings and apologetics, I might as well be a Catholic, but when I look at these people, I can’t really believe that the Catholic Church is superior to other churches, as it claims. I can’t believe that these people are not the church.

If these miracles are not due to God, who then? I can’t believe it’s the devil.

• CB

Yes, this is my issue too. Of course, Catholics will say (and no doubt have in this thread–I’ve only read the OP so far) that Protestants have graces but that Catholics have the fullness of the faith, so your dichotomy doesn’t quite match what Catholics claim (these days–at one time they took a much harder line). Still, I think your point remains valid. Experience doesn’t seem to match the Catholic claims, however appealing they are in theory.

Edwin

 

[Contarini]

Hi everybody and thanks for taking time answering my question. There are many and great answers here, and I am not gonna comment on every single one of them, I just want to say, that I have now one less reason for not converting (and a really biggie that is)

Ironically I think one of the things that also has held/holds? me back is that I (sub-consciously) find it arrogant to claim that I know better than many of the very learned and God-fearing Lutheran ministers, theologians etc. around me. I know that is very inconsistent, as it is basically a Catholic argument (“Don’t mess with tradition”) and there are just as many or more wise and God-fearing Catholics… but it’s one of those subconscious things.

I don’t think it’s inconsistent at all. Tradition is whatever you have actually received. You are right to be reluctant to break with the particular tradition of Christianity that has nourished you. You need to be very, very certain before doing any such thing. Five years down the road you may decide that you should really be Orthodox. I’ve seen it happen.

Edwin

 

[po18guy]

Hi CB,

First, God can and does work through anyone. Hindu, Jew, Buddhist or Protestant, we are all God’s children.

God works through our imperfections. All people are prone to error, misjudgements and sin. God has not abandoned anyone who does not profess Catholicism. Nor does he walk away because we are sinful.

All graces needed for salvation flow through the Catholic Church. They may flow to others not presently members of the Church. This is not an arrogant statement, it is the truth. Jesus Christ started one Church to carry his plan for mankind’s salvation.

We’re not comparing country clubs here. This is about God’s plan for redemption. Not yours, mine or any other denomination.

That is why, as frightful as the priest scandal was, I could not ever consider leaving the faith. Though people within the Church may fall, the Church Herself is perfect as she is guided by the Holy Spirit.

Remember, the Church is not a hotel for saints, it is a hospital for sinners.

Well said, and welcome!

 

[rr1213]

Hi,

I know title is provoking. But seriously, I’m not looking for a fight.

There are many things in Catholicism that I like, and it seems to be the church that makes the most sense compared to others. Dogmas are well-defended and generally plausible.

However, I know so many Christians that are not Catholics (mainly Lutheran Charismatics) yet are on fire for God. I don’t talk about worship-song-i-love-you-jesus on fire, but REALLY on fire, giving their lives to the Lord, trusting in him. And I see God bless them, do miracles through them. I know several prophets and a few that speak in tongues, and some time ago, a miracle somewhat like the one with loaves and fish happened at a church I know.

If I looked solely at teachings and apologetics, I might as well be a Catholic, but when I look at these people, I can’t really believe that the Catholic Church is superior to other churches, as it claims. I can’t believe that these people are not the church.

If these miracles are not due to God, who then? I can’t believe it’s the devil.

• CB

Lutheran charismatics? I didn’t know that there was such a thing. Quite interesting.

 

[bengal_fan]

Wish granted:

You know Luther and Calvin? You might therefore be acquainted with something called “sola fide”, which is not synonymous with “sola gratia”. EVERY Protestant you know says they are saved via “sola gratia”? .

get a grip. luther said “sola gratia, sola fide”. yes, every protestant i know agrees with that.

Grace either is or is not a gift of God. It is either necessary for faith or it is not. It must either preclude faith or not. This is a complete mishmash of muddled theology. .

obviously you don’t understand catholic theology that well. the church teaches that we can only have faith because of grace but that we also receive grace through faith and works. you are trying to be logical with God. it doesn’t always work. His ways are higher than ours.

Why couldn’t Christ go to America, as Mormons have said? historians ought to know that evidence is required. They ought also know why Babylon wasn’t a tourist destination in A.D. 33. They ought also know why it was Peter went to Rome in the first place, and ought know why heading to Rome through Antioch makes some sense while heading to Rome through Antioch and Babylon does not. It is ridiculous. .

the mormon analogy isn’t a good one since the Bible never says that Jesus went to America. it does say that Peter was in “Babylon”. i have never said that that doesn’t mean Rome, i simply said that it might actually mean Babylon. so are you saying that Christian missionaries only go to tourist attractions and easy places to get to? again, you need to read why i said what i did. it was in response to a comment that all we need to do is read the Bible to see that the catholic church is the true church and that simply isn’t true. to show that, i said that by purely reading the Bible, we get Peter in Babylon. it is by looking at outside sources that we understand that probably meant Rome (although him travelling to Babylone IS NOT out of the realm of possibility).

Perhaps you would have more credibility if you showed you understood what Catholic teaching on grace, faith, and works IS. .

i know exactly what the church teaches and i happen to disagree slightly with it. again, read post, understand post, then respond. you seem to fail to do this a lot.

Again, no evidence you understand the history of the period, nor the geography of the region. There are very good reasons why Peter did not want to indicate he was writing from Rome, why he used “Babylon” as the euphemism for it, and why he went to Rome in the first place. It is a willful misreading to claim he in fact was in Babylon at this time. Moreover, what historical evidence is there he ever set foot in Babylon or the surrounding region?

Look at a map.

again, evidence you don’t give God credit. why would Peter and his mission be bound by geography. heck, Philip up and disappeared after converting the ethiopian eunoch. and again, you completely misunderstanding a post. i think, after have seeing you have no ability at comprehension… i will have to wash my hands of you. go back, read ALL the posts to see what people are saying as opposed to jumping into a conversation in the middle and assuming you know what some one is saying. catch you on the flip side.

 

[qui_est_ce]

Hi,

I know title is provoking. But seriously, I’m not looking for a fight.

There are many things in Catholicism that I like, and it seems to be the church that makes the most sense compared to others. Dogmas are well-defended and generally plausible.

However, I know so many Christians that are not Catholics (mainly Lutheran Charismatics) yet are on fire for God. I don’t talk about worship-song-i-love-you-jesus on fire, but REALLY on fire, giving their lives to the Lord, trusting in him. And I see God bless them, do miracles through them. I know several prophets and a few that speak in tongues, and some time ago, a miracle somewhat like the one with loaves and fish happened at a church I know.

If I looked solely at teachings and apologetics, I might as well be a Catholic, but when I look at these people, I can’t really believe that the Catholic Church is superior to other churches, as it claims. I can’t believe that these people are not the church.

If these miracles are not due to God, who then? I can’t believe it’s the devil.

• CB

This is not at all provoking. This is the kind of thread I have been looking for. There are so many that I have seen on this Forum that are 99.9% in agreement with Catholic doctrines, but can’t make that final leap. There is either a dogma or a social stigma that seems to keep them (you). I would like to see more posts by those Protestants who are on the brink. I think they all have a pretty good knowledge of what CC teaches. We don’t need to be preaching at them here.

I would just like to see what is keeping them.

 

[DebChris]

The real question is not what God may be doing in the lives of others, but what are we allowing Him to do in our life. If we seek Him out and His will and not what others do or appear to do then we will find HIs power and the path that He has for us. God works in all the faithful in and out of full communion with Rome. But if we know where the fullness of the faith is then that is the path we must follow. Any and all of the Gifts of the Holy Spirit which may be found in non-Catholic Chrsitian Churches are all found within the Catholic Church. I left a very active Non-demonational Church that I have no doubt that God was working though the majority of its members. I didn’t leave that church for the fact I didn’t find God working there nor that my Brothers and Sisters didn’t truly love God, I converted to the Catholic Church because God revealed to me this is where He could bring me into the fullness of the faith and do the work He has made me to do which just might be to help to fire up some of my new brothers and sisters. I don’t know for sure for I’m still a work in progress and I’m still learning as God teachings me with the help of my new brothers and sisters and my older brothers and sisters.

One evening I was listening to an individual on television talk about how denominations were formed by individuals following from one type of spirituality or form of prayer to another. He was trying to use this as a reason to remain non-denominational, unaware that the different forms of spirituality he mentioned can all be found within the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church has roots that many new congregations do not have. These new Christian communities have yet to be tested by the persecutions that the mainline churches, specifically the Roman Catholic Church have survived.
It is more than possible to be “on fire” for the Lord as a Catholic. The Charismatic Renewal is only one of the different spiritual movements that find a home within the Catholic Church. These gifts that the Holy Spirit makes available to each of us are meant for the upbuilding of the Church as a whole.
Regardless of denomination, as mentioned in the quote above, what is importance is our willingness to “follow the will of the father.”
I originally planned to post this in response to HomewardBound (#36) and for the OP. RCIA is a program that allows the individual first of all learn about the Catholic faith. The decision to join is meant to be a free will decision of the heart. We are on God’s time and he will help you make the decision that is right for you.

 

[bengal_fan]

This is not at all provoking. This is the kind of thread I have been looking for. There are so many that I have seen on this Forum that are 99.9% in agreement with Catholic doctrines, but can’t make that final leap. There is either a dogma or a social stigma that seems to keep them (you). I would like to see more posts by those Protestants who are on the brink. I think they all have a pretty good knowledge of what CC teaches. We don’t need to be preaching at them here.

I would just like to see what is keeping them.

i love the catholic church, i just have a few things that still aren’t clicking with me. i am still searching, learning, praying, but there are those things that i cannot reconcile as of yet. it’s not social stigmas (although as a protestant minister, it would be a bit “scandalous” he he he), it is just a few things that i am still having trouble with, that’s all.

 

[DebChris]

i love the catholic church, i just have a few things that still aren’t clicking with me. i am still searching, learning, praying, but there are those things that i cannot reconcile as of yet. it’s not social stigmas (although as a protestant minister, it would be a bit “scandalous” he he he), it is just a few things that i am still having trouble with, that’s all.

It’s “scandalous” because as a minister, you do not want to abandon the flock. I can understand that. As I mentioned in my last post, the decision that you make must be a free will decision made from your heart. You would probably need to explain that decision, at least briefly, as you hand off your congregation to its next shepard. Who knows, maybe they might follow you.

 

[qui_est_ce]

i love the catholic church, i just have a few things that still aren’t clicking with me. i am still searching, learning, praying, but there are those things that i cannot reconcile as of yet. it’s not social stigmas (although as a protestant minister, it would be a bit “scandalous” he he he), it is just a few things that i am still having trouble with, that’s all.

Yes, exactly, you have made a lot of leaps. I have seen them in other threads. Most pertain to the marian doctrines. You have accepted many on faith, but not certain ones. Being a Protestant minister, you have a lot you could share with your Catholic friends. I have seen you be an apologist for Catholic teachings to Catholics! Somehow, I think you relish that scandal, though!

I do know converts who crossed the Tiber did not regret their Protestant upbringing and were grateful for it, they considered it part of their journey.

For you, it’s a matter of time. It may be letting go of all the logic and rationality you do find in the CC.

Have you read anything by Scott Hahn, Patrick Madrid, or Tim Staples?

 

[JohnnyReb]

I do know converts who crossed the Tiber did not regret their Protestant upbringing and were grateful for it, they considered it part of their journey.

For you, it’s a matter of time. It may be letting go of all the logic and rationality you do find in the CC.

Have you read anything by Scott Hahn, Patrick Madrid, or Tim Staples?

I am one of those who is in the process of converting. I thank God for my Christian/Protestant uprbring. Without it I would not have found the Catholic Church.

Anyone who would like to talk to someone who is converting to Catholicism from Protestantism can send me a PM.