My #1 reason for not converting...

[peary]

scottm posted: Yesterday was the Sunday before Thanksgiving. The homily was 4 1/2 minutes long. (I timed it.)

Catholic approach: “If you can’t say what needs to be said in 10 minutes or less, you’ve lost the congregation.”

Protestant approach: “When my pastor prays he closes his eyes, and when he preaches he closes mine.”

 

[Teflon93]

scottm posted: Yesterday was the Sunday before Thanksgiving. The homily was 4 1/2 minutes long. (I timed it.)

Catholic approach: “If you can’t say what needs to be said in 10 minutes or less, you’ve lost the congregation.”

Protestant approach: “When my pastor prays he closes his eyes, and when he preaches he closes mine.”

In reading A.N. Wilson’s biography of Hilaire Belloc, he said something to the effect that he suspected any priest taking over 20 minutes of heresy.

 

[FAB]

scottm posted: Yesterday was the Sunday before Thanksgiving. The homily was 4 1/2 minutes long. (I timed it.)

scottm seems to have a basic miss understanding of the purpose of the homily and this section of the mass. Remember, before the homily are four readings from the bible. The inspired word of God and the teachings of Christ. The homily is to bring those words to life for us today. Sometime it may only take a reflection of 4 1/2 min. The length has nothing to do with how close the priest or deacon, or even the people are to God.
The protestant preacher has to preach for 45 min. because he has nothing else to offer in his service.
Don’t mistake the acctual length of the service with how close Catholics are to God. The mass does not end as the presider walks out the door, it continues in each of those present, throughout the week, untill we are renewed again. We are told to “go forth, to love and serve the Lord”. The love and serve, we must also know Him, to know His will in the way we live our daily lives.
Peace
FAB

 

[Teflon93]

Good point—Protestant sermons have to fill the length of time not used for the Liturgy of the Eucharist, since most of them do not have anything resembling this. Another alternative is the altar call, which eats up 20 minutes on a particularly Holy Spirit-feeling day.

Other times, the praise band drones on and on (one more time!), but that is a horror for another thread.

 

[rr1213]

I’ve heard plenty of Protestant sermons in my life time in plenty of Protestant Churches, including the Methodist, Episcopal, Presybterian, Baptist and Lutheran Churches among others. The sermons have ranged from absolutely amazing and convicting teaching to worthless babble. Most were ok. I have also heard a decent number of homilies from Catholic priests. Some were ok, most were pretty meaningless and none were great. I suppose that the focus in the Catholic Church has been on the Eucharist rather than the homily and, as a consequence, the homily has often suffered. The quality of homilies is an area where, in my opinion, the Catholic Church needs improvement. If I recall correctly, it is also an area where the US Bishops and/or the Vatican have recognized that there needs to be improvement.

 

[FAB]

The quality of homilies is an area where, in my opinion, the Catholic Church needs improvement. If I recall correctly, it is also an area where the US Bishops and/or the Vatican have recognized that there needs to be improvement.

I would not argue the point that some homilies need to be improved, and yes there is a movement to see that they are improved. But even a bad homily should not deminish the previously proclaimed word of God.

 

[O.S.Luke]

I think it depends on what you’re looking for. The source and summit of the Catholic faith is the Eucharist. The homily in the Mass is just icing on the cake.

That is not very good liturgical theology, whether one is Catholic or Protestant. The Table is Christ made flesh. The Word is also Christ - in the beginning was the Word (logos). They are not in tension with each other, one does not overshadow the other - they compliment each other. The simple act of reading or hearing scripture is a sacramental act - an outward and visible sign of God’s grace. That would necessarily include homiletical actions.

Comparing the Eucharist to a pastor’s 45-minute sermon to me is a no-brainer! The Eucharist is the body, blood, soul and divinity of Christ - can’t get closer to God than that!

Any United Methodist pastor who preached a 45 minute sermon would have preached his last sermon. No argument about the Eucharist. But without the Word you wouldn’t have John 6 and all of the theology that informs us of the Eucharist (eucharistia). You can’t divorce them or compare them - that does disservice to both, and neither need disservice.

My :twocents:

O+

 

[Hellisreal]

You have to follow your conscience. If you feel that strongly, I wonder why you are here, since you seem to have it all together.
God bless you. Go in peace.

peace

Yep.
Maybe to let us know about this new movement?
Hey, by the way- I thought Malachi was the last prophet. The OP seems to know prophets at this place. I just checked my bible again, and don’t see how this can be. Maybe this is some new teaching going on.
I’m interested to know more if the OP can tell us about that.

 

[peary]

That is not very good liturgical theology, whether one is Catholic or Protestant. The Table is Christ made flesh. The Word is also Christ - in the beginning was the Word (logos). They are not in tension with each other, one does not overshadow the other - they compliment each other. The simple act of reading or hearing scripture is a sacramental act - an outward and visible sign of God’s grace. That would necessarily include homiletical actions.

The WORD OF GOD IS CHRIST. Jesus didn’t say, “I am a book.”
To equate the Bible with the very essence of God Himself is idolatry. That is why the Church has always taught that its Scriptures are the inspired word of God, not God Himself.

**Even if there were no Sacred Scripture, you would still have THE CHURCH. And THE CHURCH would be guided in revealing the Truth to humanity with or without its scriptures. **

 

[jmcrae]

Yep.
Maybe to let us know about this new movement?
Hey, by the way- I thought Malachi was the last prophet. The OP seems to know prophets at this place. I just checked my bible again, and don’t see how this can be. Maybe this is some new teaching going on.
I’m interested to know more if the OP can tell us about that.

Actually, John the Baptist was the last prophet.

But yeah, I know what you mean.

 

[Teflon93]

I’ve heard plenty of Protestant sermons in my life time in plenty of Protestant Churches, including the Methodist, Episcopal, Presybterian, Baptist and Lutheran Churches among others. The sermons have ranged from absolutely amazing and convicting teaching to worthless babble. Most were ok. I have also heard a decent number of homilies from Catholic priests. Some were ok, most were pretty meaningless and none were great. I suppose that the focus in the Catholic Church has been on the Eucharist rather than the homily and, as a consequence, the homily has often suffered. The quality of homilies is an area where, in my opinion, the Catholic Church needs improvement. If I recall correctly, it is also an area where the US Bishops and/or the Vatican have recognized that there needs to be improvement.

The homilies of Pope John Paul II and Pope Benedict XVI are being collected online—they show up in updates to the “Welcome to the Catholic Church” software package for anyone interested.

And I would say these homilies are AMAZING.

 

[Hellisreal]

Actually, John the Baptist was the last prophet.

But yeah, I know what you mean.

You got me!

Trying to google up something on this now. Just adding in the words used and seeing if I can find a faith statement or something.

Dear OP, if you could give us a faith statement we’d be much obliged.

 

[tris183]

just a thought, but look in to the lives of the saints, and look at how they lived their lives for the lord completly!

 

[O.S.Luke]

The WORD OF GOD IS CHRIST.

Didn’t I just say that?

Jesus didn’t say, “I am a book.”

No, He didn’t. Your point?

To equate the Bible with the very essence of God Himself is idolatry. That is why the Church has always taught that its Scriptures are the inspired word of God, not God Himself.

I agree, tho we may be using Word/Logos in differing ways. Again, your point?

Even if there were no Sacred Scripture, you would still have THE CHURCH. And THE CHURCH would be guided in revealing the Truth to humanity with or without its scriptures.

I am still not getting your point - but this is a moot point, since we DO have Scripture. And since we do, we should read all parts of it in our worship of God - because it, just as the Eucharist, is a visible reminder and sacramental action that is, and points to, Christ.

Pax,

O+

 

[rr1213]

The homilies of Pope John Paul II and Pope Benedict XVI are being collected online—they show up in updates to the “Welcome to the Catholic Church” software package for anyone interested.

And I would say these homilies are AMAZING.

That could very well be…I have great respect for both men, but they aren’t your average parish priest either.

 

[jmcrae]

That could very well be…I have great respect for both men, but they aren’t your average parish priest either.

My experience of “average parish priests” is that although not all of them are charismatic pound-the-pulpit entertainers, all of the ones I have encountered give excellent messages in their homilies most of the time. Everyone has a bad day sometimes - maybe you are just unlucky and catching people on their off days.

 

[rr1213]

My experience of “average parish priests” is that although not all of them are charismatic pound-the-pulpit entertainers, all of the ones I have encountered give excellent messages in their homilies most of the time. Everyone has a bad day sometimes - maybe you are just unlucky and catching people on their off days.

I don’t think that the most meaningful sermons are given by pulpit pounding entertainers, but rather by thoughtful, learned and articulate teachers. I’ve found many of those type of folk in the PCA (they must have great seminaries) and, also, some in the Episcopal and Lutheran Churches. That’s my personal experience, others may have different experiences.

 

[jmcrae]

I don’t think that the most meaningful sermons are given by pulpit pounding entertainers, but rather by thoughtful, learned and articulate teachers.

This describes the majority of the priests I know, actually.

 

[Teflon93]

That could very well be…I have great respect for both men, but they aren’t your average parish priest either.

Check out their homilies and decide for yourself.

Both of our priests are excellent homilists. Father Robert (the more junior of the two) is given to more oratory; Father Gary provides a more down-to-earth homily. Both are excellent; both are well-steeped in Scripture, Magisterium, and Tradition.

We have several guess homilists throughout the year; delivery varies, but thus far (2 years) all have been excellent. There is something about the brevity and the focus on the Scripture itself, read at length in the 15-20 min prior to the homily, which brings out the best, I think.

The Catholic Church being as big as she is, there is apt to be some variation. I must say I much prefer the homily to the pulpit thumping sermon myself; I’ve never much cared for shouting at God.

 

[qui_est_ce]

Yesterday was the Sunday before Thanksgiving. The homily was 4 1/2 minutes long. (I timed it.) The Sunday before Thanksgiving! This is the season of thinking about all the things we have to be thankful for. We’ve had ten full months of experience with God (Jan – Oct) in this year alone. Multiply that by the 6500 families at my parish, and that’s a whole lot of things to talk about! Then there’s all the years before.

After the 8 am Catholic mass I went to the 11 am Baptist church. The preacher there spoke for 45 minutes about the things that God has been doing in his immediate sphere.
And you’re going to tell me that the Eucharist bonds you closer to God than whatever it is that the Baptist is doing? Get real. Over here that is so not true. The Catholics are stuck in the past, imagining themselve to be close to God because their spiritual forefathers were close to God.
And then you’ll say, “The homilies are supposed to be short.”
I really, really hope someday this changes. It’s a sufficient reason for not converting.

Dear Scott,
That’s not the case in St. Louis. We are on FIRE for Jesus. Our homilies are at least 20-30 minutes long, (can’t go too much longer because it cuts into the next mass - how many Sunday services does the Baptist congregation have)? We have a theologian from the local Jesuit university as associate at our Parish> He gives us a homily EVERY single morning at 6:30 AM mass. Does the Baptist have service twice a day?

You can’t be serious that Eucharist does not bring us closer to God, how much closer can you get than to eat His flesh and drink His blood? Our parish and many in St. Louis have weeking Eucharistic Adoration with Benediction. Some have 24-hour perpetual devotions.

We have Cursillo week-ends and Christ Renews His Parish. Some have ACTS. Once a year we have a Mission. A missionary talks to us five nights in a week, mass, and social.

Maybe the Baptist minister is talking for 45 minutes, but is he talking Truth or picking verses he wants to shout at the congregation about?

Without the Graces of the Sacraments, we cannot know, love, and serve God.