My 13 yr old daughter informed me she is not Catholic anymore

  • Thread starter Thread starter pammie
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
snhs said:
Out of interest what qualifies you to evaluate the work of one of the greatest philosophers in the past few centuries?
Click to expand...
We obviously have both evaluated it and come to different conclusions. My qualifications are ‘having read and comprehended it’, which is, I understand, essentially the only prerequisite for having a valid opinion on matters of philosophy. What are yours?
Neither of us know the OP’s daughter, without knowing her and the way her mind works it is impossible to know what will or will not work, which of the various intellectual arguments will most appeal. That being the case it makes sense to try all of the possibilities, after all if someone has stopped eating it doesn’t matter if it’s cordon bleu cooking or a burger and chips that persuades them to eat again but that they start eating.
Click to expand...
Indeed not, and a steak would be just as recognizable as a burger once it’s pureed and shoved up one’s nostril through a feeding tube. Please, let’s be clear: I object not to attempts to logically prove what is beyond logic (it can be a fun way to kill twenty minutes), but to the idea that force-feeding these proofs is the Way To Go to convince someone.
And from the sound of it she does want to be convinced anyway, she hasn’t said she denies the existence of God but that she is not sure.
Click to expand...
The two are not equivalent. I don’t necessarily deny the existence of God, I deny the provability of the divine!
As another poster has pointed out we don’t leave them to fend for their own food and clothing at this age, how much more should we seek to ensure they have the guidance which can lead them to the right path.
Click to expand...
There’s nothing wrong with that. Where the distinction must be drawn (to reuse a metaphor) is between providing food and force-feeding. Many people who have given advice in this thread seem not to have noticed that line all too well, and some have advocated merrily traipsing across it. ‘Do you love your child enough to make her hate you and your faith?’ – what kind of question is that?!
 
Some great advice has been given here, and the best, of course, is to pray unobtrusively for her.

I have to agree with everything Mirdath said.

The actions of Pammie’s daughter are her thoughts, feelings, and beliefs - which cannot be forcefully changed - and who she associates with - which a parent may try to control, but it inevitably causes more harm than good, and it is not in itself immoral to associate with people who commit immoral acts. There is a reason why we feel drawn to certain people at certain times in our lives. When I was 17, I spent a summer hanging out with a group of homeless and/or delinquent people who drank in the streets and I remained a nerd 🤷 . Peer pressure is overrated, especially when it comes to strong-willed, sincere, inquisitive, intelligent people like Pammie’s daughter.

Intellectual arguments on both sides of the divide appear somewhat naive, and are of necessity inconclusive, thank dear God. God never wanted to force us into believing in Him, which the perfect logical argument for His existence would in effect do. It is not a bad idea to introduce a child to the history of the debate, of course.

Pammie, you sound like a wonderful person and mother and I’m sure your daughter will turn out just fine. 🙂
 
Mirdath said:
We obviously have both evaluated it and come to different conclusions. My qualifications are ‘having read and comprehended it’, which is, I understand, essentially the only prerequisite for having a valid opinion on matters of philosophy. What are yours?

Indeed not, and a steak would be just as recognizable as a burger once it’s pureed and shoved up one’s nostril through a feeding tube. Please, let’s be clear: I object not to attempts to logically prove what is beyond logic (it can be a fun way to kill twenty minutes), but to the idea that force-feeding these proofs is the Way To Go to convince someone.

The two are not equivalent. I don’t necessarily deny the existence of God, I deny the provability of the divine!

There’s nothing wrong with that. Where the distinction must be drawn (to reuse a metaphor) is between providing food and force-feeding. Many people who have given advice in this thread seem not to have noticed that line all too well, and some have advocated merrily traipsing across it. ‘Do you love your child enough to make her hate you and your faith?’ – what kind of question is that?!
Click to expand...
That’s slightly debatable actually. For example given your rather damning opinion of it your comprehension may be somewhat lacking. Perhaps it is best to leave understanding to one side at present, better to simply point out that you have no qualifications beyond having read and, in your view, comprehended it. Apart from anything else the fact it doesn’t work for you does not indicate how it will work for another.

You are trying to create a false dichotomy, it’s not a question of her eating or being force fed as you seem to, mistakenly, believe.

There is an old adage that for those who believe no proof is necessary and for those who do not no prove will suffice. That is all very well if we accept there are only those two types. However currently the OP’s daughter is somewhere in the middle, not sure, and in such cases, especially when she is talking or confiding about it, it is an invitation to hear a view on it. You can argue if you wish that that isn’t necessarily the case. But given that an intelligent girl is involved she would be perfectly aware that picking a fight or speaking out about these things will only create problems which could be avoided by paying lip service. In short it is more likely that she is inviting (name removed by moderator)ut on it than other reasons.

It is not a question of proving it to your satisfaction though, rather it is the question of putting forward a logical and probabilistic argument for why the existence of God is true.

Again this false dichotomy. Simply talking about faith and reason in a calm and rational manner is not going to make any reasonable, intelligent person rail against it. I don’t think I posed that question, what I will suggest is that there is a line between using our own experiences as a basis for a view and foisting our views upon a case, and it’s preferred result, until it is quite unlike it’s origin, and the solution we propose is likely to cause more harm than many others. I think however that that applies to giving up the ghost by distributing humanist literature just as it may to some of the more extreme views on the other wing.
 
Interesting stuff. I was baptized Catholic as an infant, went to a few different Protestant churches until my parents divorced when I was 9 (spurred in large part between an adulterous and later abusive relationship between my mother and another one of the churchgoers, though while I knew his behavior toward us(the churchgoer’s) was abusive by the time I was 11-12(as I gradually learned things like it not being normal for the police to come when couples argued), I didn’t find out about the adultery until I was 13 (a bit after she broke up with him) and she still doesn’t know that I know and I see no reason to bring it up to her. Anyway, the whole experience soured me on religion and to this day I don’t trust people any more than I would otherwise just because they attend church.

Anyhow, as a young child I’d had the childish view of God - you know, God as Santa Claus, which I grew out of about the time that I grew out of believing in Santa Claus(8 or 9). Then, nothing replaced it for a time. I was alone. Alone as a 12 year old having to deal with adult problems. In jr high though I was amazed by the kindness of a few of my teachers and classmates. Some classmates spoke about God, and I started thinking about him. Imagining, someone there for me, for my family, to fix what we screwed up, to forgive what I’d done wrong rather than just leaving me thinking I was a horrible person. That was when I started believing in God in more of an adult sense - as someone who is there for you, rather than as a childish Santa Claus view where you pray asking for stuff you want but don’t really need and usually don’t get it. I still didn’t go to church, or even really want to. Remember I was only 12-13 at the time, and I was still distrusting of organized religion.

Then, in 10th grade, I started going to Youth group with some friends. I started it as more of a social thing than anything else. The youth director was great though - he was never pushy, but he’d always answer my questions. He sponsored me when I was confirmed (also had 1st Reconciliation and Communion) at 16. I was pretty “old” for the Jr high confirmation group and too “young” for RCIA but it didn’t matter. My parents never opposed this, and even went to my confirmation. My grandmother sent me a rosary my great-grandmother had had and wrote me a letter I still have…

Anyway, back to the topic - Your daughter might be growing out of the “Santa Claus” view of God. She might be having issues with organized religion. I would have resented my parents if they had tried to stop me from becoming Catholic. It sounds as though if she were to be confirmed now, it would not be a valid sacrament(for the same reason that insincere marriage vows would be grounds for anullment). I would talk to her, and go more for the intellectual view. Also try to see if there’s any way she can be around kids who believe their faith rather than the ones who are just going along with their parents. She’ll have to develop her religious views at her own pace. I did, and I’m happy to say that at 23 I am a happily practicing Catholic.
 
If it’s any consolation, I think a lot of adolescents go through periods like this. The GOOD thing about it, however, that if she returns to the Faith, her faith will likely be much stronger for having endured the present struggle and trial.
 
hey! I’m in the gay/straight alliance at my school too! what a small world.
she sounds like she has her head on pretty straight.
 
I had my daughter baptized in the Catholic Church. We attended mass every Sunday for several years until I became disenchanted with the hipocrisy (every Sunday sitting next to a man who was there with 8 children in tow and reeking of whiskey). In 2000 I moved across a handful of states with my daughter to live in my brother’s home. He attended mass every Sunday and I went along to avoid arguments. Every Sunday, without fail, he would end up cussing somebody out on the way home, or raging at his girlfriend or his dogs about nothing. As time went on I quit going to mass. Too many screaming kids, too many Cheerios on the pews, too many stodgy old men trying to read the readings and failing to comprehend the workings of the microphone right in front of them. I just had enough.

When my daughter was 15 she very tearfully told me she was not going to pursue a Catholic lifestyle and, instead, she was investigating Judaism. For the next three years I took her to Temple every Friday night. On Sundays I did laundry.

For Catholics there is no other faith - if one tries to escape it is psychologically impossible. It sticks and permeates and envelops a human psyche and soul until it either thrives or dies. Mine died. Because this is a Catholic forum, one will not find many like me. I am but one of countless casualties of Baltimore Catechism. The fact that I believe in God at all is miraculous.

I am grateful that my daughter found a place in Judaism. She is more knowledgeable about her chosen faith than I am about the one that I inherited by default. I wish her peace with her undertaking. That is more than I will ever have.

marietta
 
1st. Arlene I like your style.
2nd. The parents are the primary teachers of their children.

Isn’t it sad that when a child wants to quit the Church you have people saying things to support their decision?

But

If that same child says they want to quit school those very same people wouldn’t support their decision!

What child at 13 knows whats good for them?

How to raise a happy child…

Let them eat cake for breakfast------------Its got milk and eggs in it.
Let them sleep all day--------------------------------Their tired.
Let them quit school-------------------------It doesn’t make them happy.
Let them smoke------------------------------Its good to try new things.
Let them drink---------------------------------They’re going to do it anyway.
Let them have sex outside of marriage-----------------It’s their bodies.
Let their boy/girl friend move in-----------------It will make them happy.
Let them come and go as they please--------It would make life so much easier.
Don’t force them to do chores---------------------Its not worth arguing.
Don’t force them to obey the laws---------------It doesn’t really matter.
Don’t force them to do homework-----------------They aren’t learning anyway.
Don’t force them to eat right-----------------They love pizza everynight.
Let them do drugs-----------------------------It makes them happy.
Let them cuss-------------------------Its good for them to express themselves.

Just because you can do it,doesn’t make it right.You can find an exuse for just about anything.

As the mother only you know whats best for her.Your job is never done especially when they’re only 13! If it were my daughter, mine is 13 also 😉

She would continue to go to Mass.( Just like I make her go to school.)
I would educate her about the history of our Church and all the other ones.
(Just like the school educates her about our nations history.)
It’s good to question our faith, its how we learn.

I highly recommend…Dr. Ray Guarendi’s books
drray.com/order.htm

marietta----

Jesus picked 12 regular men. 1 betrayed Him, they all left Him.He knew they would, yet He still picked them to be His Apostles.
Jesus came for the sinners not the rightous. I am a sinner, I am not perfect, I need His Church.
The Church is made of up of both sinners and saints.
A healthy person doesn’t go to the hospital. The Church is a hospital for those in need.
It doesn’t make His Church anyless His.
The Eucharist is why we come to Mass. That should be our only focus.

Matthew 7

1"Do not judge so that you will not be judged.

2"For in the way you judge, you will be judged; and by your standard of measure, it will be measured to you.

3"Why do you look at the speck that is in your brother’s eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye?

4"Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ and behold, the log is in your own eye?

5"You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother’s eye.

Maybe the reason your daughter gets so much out of her “chosen faith” is because she puts something into it instead of taking it for granted? Just a thought.
 
That’s the problem with some of the academic types, they think they’re so smart that they think they’re too good for religion, which is they think is for the ignorant. Don’t get me wrong, it’s not bad to excel in academics, but I have noticed that many of the valedictorians I personally know are atheists.

Reminds of this story:

**A Student and a Rosary **

Years ago, a student in Paris, on his way to the university, hopped on the train and found an empty seat next to an elderly man. As the train moved off, the student noticed that the old man was praying the rosary. Watching him for a while out of the corner of his eye, he finally blurted out, “Excuse me, sir, but I couldn’t help but notice what you are doing, and I wonder if you are aware how superstitious and old-fashioned it is.” “Oh, really?” replied the old man, “Tell me more.” “I have to get off at the next stop,” replied the student, “but just give me your name and address, and I will send you some books that will explain what I mean.” As the train came to a halt, the man wrote his name and address on a scrap of paper and handed it to the student, who stuffed it in his pocket and hurried off. Later in the day, the student remembered the scrap of paper, took it from his pocket, and opened it. Reading the name scribbled on it, he was dumbfounded: “Louis Pasteur.” To his dismay, he realized that he had been talking to a famous scientist, known the world over for his achievements in the field of bacteriology.
 
Also wanted to add that I was raised in a household where I had to attend Mass. My father said it was his duty as my parent to teach me about God. I suggest you make a similar rule.

I have a cousin in medical school and though his politics may be liberal-leaning, he still goes to confession regularly and attends Mass every Sunday. Who said science and faith can’t go together?

I attended a prestigious university well-known for its academic rigor and let me tell you…the largest group among the student population were the Roman Catholics along with the very religious Protestants and Jews. In fact, over half of the university’s Board of Trustees are practicing Catholics and the President is a practicing Anglican. Not to mention our well-known football coach, athletes and even famous film professors are also practicing Catholics. And this is not even a Catholic school! Faith in God is for everyone.
 
JPUSC, I like your rosary story and have shared it with my daughter.
No matter what she does or proclaimes in terms of beliefs–she will go to Mass every Sunday–it is our rule too.
 
pammie said:
I’m not sure I will make it to the end of her adolescence!!!

DD is an extremely bright kid, skipped a grade, has already taken the SAT’s, ACT’s. Has been in Catholic schools thru grade school–this is her first year in public HS. ( No Catholic HS in town ) We actively practice our faith in church and in the home. She does not want to go to Mass anymore and resent the fact that I insist she go. She is pro-choice and attends a gay/straight alliance group at school to support gay rights. She tells me she might be agnostic and is searching for a higher power. She is not sure she believes in God at all.

My response, amoung many, I try to be respectful of her feelings but tell her I feel a responsibility for her soul at her young age. I tell her I take the responsibility seriously.

I’m slumped in my chair as I type this. Where can I go from here.
I am truly confused and discouraged.
Click to expand...
A parent has four responsiblities toward their child: instruction, correction, guidance, and good example. (St. Thomas)

It looks to me like DD needs a bit of correction, as well as - if you feel it’s appropriate - a visit with a Priest. She’s in that stage like the prodigical son where she wants total freedom, she wants to scoop life out til there is nothing left. She dose not yet know that freedom is not the power to do whatever one wants, it is the power to do all the good one wants; true freedom is in Christ. Hence, if she distances herself from Christ and His Church, she will lose not only the freedom to do good but even the freedom she wants to enjoy, becoming a slave to herself, to her passions. And just like the prodigical, she will come a running back to the Church - though this requires great prayer and penance on her family and parish’s part.

But before she gets the chance to “run away”, correct her. As a parent, it is your duty, your responsibility, to correct her. Tell her you’re correcting her out of love. She may not yet understand, or care, but correction is better than just letting her run free like a mongoose.
 
pammie said:
I’m not sure I will make it to the end of her adolescence!!!

DD is an extremely bright kid, skipped a grade, has already taken the SAT’s, ACT’s. Has been in Catholic schools thru grade school–this is her first year in public HS. ( No Catholic HS in town ) We actively practice our faith in church and in the home. She does not want to go to Mass anymore and resent the fact that I insist she go. She is pro-choice and attends a gay/straight alliance group at school to support gay rights. She tells me she might be agnostic and is searching for a higher power. She is not sure she believes in God at all.

My response, amoung many, I try to be respectful of her feelings but tell her I feel a responsibility for her soul at her young age. I tell her I take the responsibility seriously.

I’m slumped in my chair as I type this. Where can I go from here.
I am truly confused and discouraged.
Click to expand...
Had I displayed these feelings to my father or mother, I would have been knocked right out of my chair. The problem these days is that the state has removed the rights of the parent to instruct and discipline their children. You do have prayer at your disposal, until the “children’s rights” advocates take that away too. I wish I had a better answer for you :cool:
 
marietta said:
I had my daughter baptized in the Catholic Church. We attended mass every Sunday for several years until I became disenchanted with the hipocrisy (every Sunday sitting next to a man who was there with 8 children in tow and reeking of whiskey). In 2000 I moved across a handful of states with my daughter to live in my brother’s home. He attended mass every Sunday and I went along to avoid arguments. Every Sunday, without fail, he would end up cussing somebody out on the way home, or raging at his girlfriend or his dogs about nothing. As time went on I quit going to mass. Too many screaming kids, too many Cheerios on the pews, too many stodgy old men trying to read the readings and failing to comprehend the workings of the microphone right in front of them. I just had enough.

When my daughter was 15 she very tearfully told me she was not going to pursue a Catholic lifestyle and, instead, she was investigating Judaism. For the next three years I took her to Temple every Friday night. On Sundays I did laundry.

For Catholics there is no other faith - if one tries to escape it is psychologically impossible. It sticks and permeates and envelops a human psyche and soul until it either thrives or dies. Mine died. Because this is a Catholic forum, one will not find many like me. I am but one of countless casualties of Baltimore Catechism. The fact that I believe in God at all is miraculous.

I am grateful that my daughter found a place in Judaism. She is more knowledgeable about her chosen faith than I am about the one that I inherited by default. I wish her peace with her undertaking. That is more than I will ever have.

marietta
Click to expand...
Strange how some folks will not allow the Church to have members who are human beings, humans with faults and sins and warts and annoying habits.

When you find a perfect group of ANY kind, please, let us know what it is. I’m sure we can make big $$ selling tickets to witness that!!!
 
pammie,

You have to understand that you cannot force God or the Church or any belief for that matter on your daughter. The vast majority of teenagers I know (or, well, knew…I’m 19 now, soon to be 20, so I’m fresh off that boat) rejected a belief in God for some reason or another.

As you know, the teen years are tough times for the teens (and their parents!). They feel like they want to liberate themselves from the “vice grips” of their parents, etc. Also, as their mind starts to develop more, they begin to question things, wonder, contemplate. This is only natural, and this cannot be stifled, or you risk undermining their natural intellectual development.

One of the people on the first page of the post suggested that you essentially bombard your daughter with religious items and symbols. I respectfully disagree. She was faced with God in every aspect of her life for 8 hours a day, 5 days a week, for however long she went to a Catholic school. It can be overwhelming sometimes, especially for someone beginning to question the world they live in.

Additionally, the fact that your daughter is now in public school has played a factor in this, as you most likely already know. Your daughter went from a closed environment (Catholic school) to an extremely open environment (public school). This change is sometimes overwhelming. This change also plays into the idea of liberation, as they are now free to think and express themselves how they desire.

I have seen it suggested many times in this thread, and I too will suggest the same things: pray for your daughter unceasingly and talk to her about the situation. I, personally, am one to take subtle action regarding this situation. You might or might not want to sit your daughter down to talk about this situation a lot. The bigger the deal you make this (and it is a big deal, trust me), the more you run the risk of having her push you and God away. Instead, you might want to mention it in passing, and in doing so, suggest to her that her reasons for not believing should be intellectually sound, or else she could end up being wrong about her ideas.

To sum it all up, you can’t be too pressing. You have to manipulate the situation to get her to think about what she’s doing. 99% of the time, teenagers don’t think, especially regarding belief in God. They have one questionable idea and then they immediately determine that He doesn’t exist. Play into this, make her seriously analyze her ideas, her questions, and help her in doing so, but with the clear yet unstated intention of bringing her back to the Truth.
 
Wow what a girl. I’m sure her and her buddies are justifying their beliefs by saying they need to keep an open mind. A wise woman once told me, “If your mind is too open, sometimes your brain falls out”. All I can suggest is to pray, pray, pray. It sounds simple. Too simple to be true. But it is true, prayer is more helpful than mostly anything.

What is it with the smart ones that they think they know everything? It saddens me when the devil captures another one of our brothers and sisters.
 
It sounds like she could be losing her faith because the members in her LGBT group, who are probably close friends of hers, are probably anti-religion based on their impression that Judeo-Christian beliefs are hateful, which is absolutely wrong.

The Catechism says:
The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God’s will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord’s Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition (2358).

Tell her to visit:

couragerc.org/

couragerc.org/FAQs.html

It is a Church sanctioned ministry, blessed by the Holy Father, that ministers to persons with same sex attraction.

narth.com/

NARTH is also a good resource with many articles explaining the psychological causes of same sex attraction.

Also, this:
catholiceducation.org/articles/homosexuality/ho0087.html

Let us continue to pray for our brothers and sisters afflicted with same sex attraction so that they may find hope in God who is all loving and merciful.
 
Well, there’s no forcing a teen into their born faith, whatever that faith may be. Take it from a seventeen year old. 😉

It’s best to just accept it; you don’t have to like it or agree with it, but trying to get her into church will just make things worse.

Besides, the agnostic philosophy isn’t all bad. I must say that agnostics are my favorite bunch of people… even if I, myself, am a happy Catholic. This is a true belief in my own spiritual little world that agnostics go far beyond the stars-- beyond Heaven, with God–in the afterlife. :angel1: The right agnostics can be so insightful. sigh

So, yeah, don’t worry too much. It doesn’t do either of you any good. :o

Ironically Yours, Blade and Blood
 
kage_ar:

The perfect group is the dead group.

No profit. Sorry.

marietta
 
DaughterOfLight said:
Has she been Confirmed? If not, I’d recommend enrolling her in classes ASAP. The Graces received in the Sacrament would do her good.
I second the Homeschooling option… It worked wonders for me! 🙂

Praying for you and your daughter…
Click to expand...
Daughter of Light is right. Consider homeschooling her. She may have intelligence beyond her years–but she is still a child. And there are issues in her life right now that are more important than unnaturally high scores on the SAT. Her school sounds a frightening place, even if she were five years older and grounded in her faith.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top