My atheist friend has stumped me

[Whadyamean]

If that’s the case, then why identify yourself with bits and pieces of Catholic mysticism? Nomenclature seems to be a big deal to you (which is understandable). For the practical purposes of this conversation, I suppose we’ll call it theosis; but again, identifying with such an institution in which you find to only have limited truth is confounding.

I do not at all identify as a “functional” Catholic, only to the extent that I was so versed in it for such a long time. Then I was given a revelation that changed everything. Ultimately, the inability of any Church protocol to deal with what I saw forced me to go outside the Faith. There, after about ten years (having, mind you, done due diligence within the Church,) I found a simple, credible, practical, and increasingly utilitarian model that is the best mental structure that can, as far as I see, point to the Reality of who and what we are as being “made in the image and likeness of God.” The closest thing I have found to it in the Bible is Mark 4: 31-34. Well, there are two other passages which are smack on, but to cite them at this point would be horribly misleading.

As for language and terminology, we think what we can up to the capacity of the language model we wire ourselves with. but whatever you might think, as thinking cannot account for it, one can go beyond the mind. Every exponent of what I advocate insists on it a a core experience in order to have the basic bit of information necessary to build your house on solid rock. All else is sand, no matter how solid it might seem at the moment. I know this.

 

[Charlemagne_II]

Anthony

If that’s the case, then why identify yourself with bits and pieces of Catholic mysticism? Nomenclature seems to be a big deal to you(which is understandable). For the practical purposes of this conversation, I suppose we’ll call it theosis; but again, identifying with such an institution in which you find to only have limited truth is confounding.

There has been a great deal of this going on lately at CAF. But there doesn’t seem to be any rule against it.

 

[paul_c]

My atheist posed this question to me the other day: “If God is so loving, fair, and powerful, why does He allow innocent children and babies to suffer from disease?”

I would have been able to answer the question if he asked why evil exists (free will, sin, etc.) but I myself began to have doubts with this one. Babies and children are innocent, and did not do anything to deserve painful and terminal diseases.

How would I give him an answer that he, an atheist, could understand?

Thanks,

Jake

The reason is that God doesn’t see things as we see them. Life is fundamentally a test to see whether we choose to do God’s will or not. God’s will is for us to know him and to love him and to love each other as we love ourselves. During our lives, we will have good things and bad things happen to us and to those around us. In each case, we are called to respond with love, which is to do things for others without expecting anything in return. Often what the world considers the tough tests, including the illnesses of children, often result in great outpourings of love from those around them. On the other hand, the situations that the world considers beneficial, like riches and success, almost never engender love from those around them.

I’ll give you an example. I coached a 13 year old girl in softball who got cancer. She went through very painful chemotherapy, lost her hair, and had several operations over the course of a few years. Yet she and her family also got tremendous support from the community. People contacted her on email daily, they contributed food and clothing and gas cards and money and she even took a trip to Disney World and to a ranch in Texas. She told me that despite the pain, she never felt anywhere near that kind of love at any other time. And Many, many people learned how to give of themselves because of her.

You see, the goal of life is not comfort, it is love and ultimately heaven. The atheist can’t see this adequately so all he can hope for is comfort. And that distorts his view of things.

 

[Whadyamean]

Anthony

If that’s the case, then why identify yourself with bits and pieces of Catholic mysticism? Nomenclature seems to be a big deal to you(which is understandable). For the practical purposes of this conversation, I suppose we’ll call it theosis; but again, identifying with such an institution in which you find to only have limited truth is confounding.

There has been a great deal of this going on lately at CAF. But there doesn’t seem to be any rule against it.

Well, that is a kinder comment than you implying that someone is a “bastard.”

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

My atheist posed this question to me the other day: “If God is so loving, fair, and powerful, why does He allow innocent children and babies to suffer from disease?”

I would have been able to answer the question if he asked why evil exists (free will, sin, etc.) but I myself began to have doubts with this one. Babies and children are innocent, and did not do anything to deserve painful and terminal diseases.

How would I give him an answer that he, an atheist, could understand?

Thanks,

Jake

You seem to operating under a false premise that adults who have painful and terminal diseases deserve it.

 

[paul_c]

I do not at all identify as a “functional” Catholic, only to the extent that I was so versed in it for such a long time. Then I was given a revelation that changed everything. Ultimately, the inability of any Church protocol to deal with what I saw forced me to go outside the Faith. There, after about ten years (having, mind you, done due diligence within the Church,) I found a simple, credible, practical, and increasingly utilitarian model that is the best mental structure that can, as far as I see, point to the Reality of who and what we are as being “made in the image and likeness of God.” The closest thing I have found to it in the Bible is Mark 4: 31-34. Well, there are two other passages which are smack on, but to cite them at this point would be horribly misleading.

As for language and terminology, we think what we can up to the capacity of the language model we wire ourselves with. but whatever you might think, as thinking cannot account for it, one can go beyond the mind. Every exponent of what I advocate insists on it a a core experience in order to have the basic bit of information necessary to build your house on solid rock. All else is sand, no matter how solid it might seem at the moment. I know this.

There are any number of devotional and spiritual exercises that the Catholic Church has at its disposal to help people come to a fuller communion with God, whether they be the teachings of John of the Cross, Teresa of Avila, Ignatius Loyola, Francis of Assissi, Francis deSales, or any other of the spiritual masters. But keep in mind that all of them began with the sacraments that provide God’s grace. If you distance yourself from the church, you distance yourself from Christ, who is the head of the Church, which is both his bride and his body. Also, you should be asking yourself why you have been given this special revelation that brings you outside the Church and who might have been the source of that revelation.

 

[Charlemagne_II]

Whad

What does “roaming Catholic” mean?

 

[Whadyamean]

Whad

What does “roaming Catholic” mean?

Fortunately for you, I’m not always here; I seem to be elsewhere as well

 

[Charlemagne_II]

Whad

Yeah. You are mercurial.

 

[kbf1970060]

You have no authority to will yourself to the union of yourself, to God. You have no means to go beyond your own mind, because you are inexplicably attached to it, that neither an eternity in Heaven, nor an eternity in Hell, will ever separate. You have no capacity to forgive yourself of your own sins; you have no ability to work, pray, plea-bargain, your way out of all the filthy wrot, that you have incurred through your own wasteful rebellion against both God, and man. Quit imagining your way to Heaven. A plethora of cults, societies, orders, parishes, span two millenia among Catholics, and six, or more, among the Judaic roots of The Catholic Church, Roman Rite, that have reinvigorated the full, and complete, revelation, that is Jesus, God and therefore, your privacy to what God alone may grant as passage to any soul – will always be out of reach for us – your will is to submit to God, rather than to bandy about forums, waxing intellectually about experiences, you are to proud to accept. I am judgemental. I think, that it is for your own good. In the meantime, enjoy Christmas. Our Savior was born. We are welcome to imitate our Savior. The Godhead, traditionally, means three persons. You, and I, and all the angels, saints, powers, and principalities, neither are, nor have been, persons of The Godhead. Their experiences, alone, authoritatively established The Catholic Church, Roman Rite, that we may receive their welcome into their company, with our own heart, body, mind, and soul. Let’s take good care of it.

 

[Whadyamean]

You have no authority to will yourself to the union of yourself, to God.

In case you are talking to me, (it is a good idea to address your comments,) then of course not. What made you think someone would claim that???

You have no means to go beyond your own mind, because you are inexplicably attached to it,

Have you tried? Actually, you can defeat the discursive mind and experience awareness as such. What do you think mystics have been doing for thousands of years?

that neither an eternity in Heaven, nor an eternity in Hell, will ever separate.

Clearly you have been there and are speaking from experience.

You have no capacity to forgive yourself of your own sins;

Maybe not. But though “you can’t cure stupid,” you can remedy ignorance.

you have no ability to work, pray, plea-bargain, your way out of all the filthy wrot,

Not sure what “filthy wrot” is. Never heard of it. And somebody seems to have really brainwashed you into an exceptionally low estimation of your abilities. I KNOW it wasn’t Jesus.

that you have incurred through your own wasteful rebellion against both God, and man.

I adore the God and rebel only against evil and ignorance as remediable behaviors on part of ignorant folk.

Quit imagining your way to Heaven.

“You have seen what your imagination has done to you, now see what it can do for you” Perhaps it can, if you let it, lead you to where you might have a more complete encounter with Universe, God, and your own inestimable potential,eh?

A plethora of cults, societies, orders, parishes, span two millenia among Catholics, and six, or more, among the Judaic roots of The Catholic Church, Roman Rite, that have reinvigorated the full, and complete, revelation, that is Jesus,

That must be comforting to believe. If it works for you, that is wonderful! Rejoice!

God and therefore, your privacy to what God alone may grant as passage to any soul – will always be out of reach for us

If it is “out of reach,” how do we receive it? Assuming that happens, of course, in the way that you believe?

– your will is to submit to God, rather than to bandy about forums, waxing intellectually about experiences, you are to proud to accept.

Right. We cannot argue with Reality.

I am judgemental.

You noticed!

I think, that it is for your own good.

Well, in your mind with your particular accepted paradigm, yes. I truly thank you for that and the energy you spent through concern for a fellow human. I appreciate that.

In the meantime, enjoy Christmas. Our Savior was born. We are welcome to imitate our Savior. The Godhead, traditionally, means three persons. You, and I, and all the angels, saints, powers, and principalities, neither are, nor have been, persons of The Godhead. Their experiences, alone, authoritatively established The Catholic Church, Roman Rite, that we may receive their welcome into their company, with our own heart, body, mind, and soul. Let’s take good care of it.

Yes, I am efforting utmostly. Glad to see your energy and fervor! Merry Christmas,and may its True Meaning unfold for you. Your enthusiasm (it means "God filled) is wonderful and will take you far.

 

[Trebor135]

A very large part of the dark night of the soul, as I found out, is ignorance. It is, in fact, why I am no longer a practicing Catholic, though I am still associated with the Church in a roundabout way. My discovery was, after a period of agonizing and research through clerics and books, that there are explanations, guidance, paradigms and short cuts the Church neither uses nor acknowledges. Something has been lost, I would say, between Jesus and the present day. It caused me great grief and sadness that I found this to be the case. Had the Church some of these protocols in place, I would have not only stayed, but would have been saved years of disturbance and searching. As it is, I feel like I have won the lottery. And I feel great pain because the Church appears to be intransigent in this matter.

What in particular is/are these “explanations, guidance, paradigms and short cuts the Church neither uses nor acknowledges” but all sincere seekers should desire to become aware and take advantage of?

What do you believe may “[have] been lost… between Jesus and the present day”?

Puzzled,
T.

 

[Charlemagne_II]

Whad

A very large part of the dark night of the soul, as I found out, is ignorance. It is, in fact, why I am no longer a practicing Catholic, though I am still associated with the Church in a roundabout way. My discovery was, after a period of agonizing and research through clerics and books, that there are explanations, guidance, paradigms and short cuts the Church neither uses nor acknowledges. Something has been lost, I would say, between Jesus and the present day. It caused me great grief and sadness that I found this to be the case. Had the Church some of these protocols in place, I would have not only stayed, but would have been saved years of disturbance and searching. As it is, I feel like I have won the lottery. And I feel great pain because the Church appears to be intransigent in this matter.

You have put your own wisdom above the wisdom of the Church founded by Christ.

Is this really the smart move?

 

[Whadyamean]

What in particular is/are these “explanations, guidance, paradigms and short cuts the Church neither uses nor acknowledges” but all sincere seekers should desire to become aware and take advantage of?

What do you believe may “[have] been lost… between Jesus and the present day”?

Puzzled,
T.

Thanks for asking. The Church, for all its good intentions and works, has a vast array of clerics who are versed far more in book learning than in actual “spirituality,” whatever that might mean. What they have is a very well developed and inherited extremely sincere piety. And heaps of good intentions. Nothing wrong there. But the model of the God/body/mind/soul has somehow gone askew in practice and has become theoretical and displaced.

Do you actually believe that we are “Made in the image and likeness of God?” I am positive that we are. But how that works has been clouded by 2000 years of interpretation and politics. Sorry, the Guidance from Above may actually be there, but ask any medium, the spirit message is always colored by the mind of the receiver. Always. Jesus was not one for dualism. Yet it is outside the Church that non dualism is actually understood and practiced. This is a great sadness. You, if you do the work, will see that the words of Jesus have an entirely different meaning when seen from another perspective, like a “magic picture” that pops into 3-D because you finally get the trick of how to see.

 

[kbf1970060]

… the model of the God/body/mind/soul has somehow gone askew in practice and has become theoretical and displaced.

… Jesus was not one for dualism. Yet it is outside the Church that non dualism is actually understood and practiced. … if you do the work, will see that the words of Jesus have an entirely different meaning when seen from another perspective, like a “magic picture” that pops into 3-D because you finally get the trick of how to see.

What I am understanding from what you have written, does not sound like an answer, but criticism. You recognize a lack of practice, and experience, and regard the interpretation of The Church, to be askew from what is meant by Jesus’ words. Nonetheless, you give nothing to say, what would correct such matters.

What is the secret: what is the key; what work do you prescribe?

Experiences tend to be personal. Jesus taught, that The Ten Commandments ought to be lived. Living The Ten Commandments would provide considerable insight into what Jesus taught. Avoid wanting what others own, or have as a contract, in short – avoid desire(s) for what belongs to others – this would appear to prevent much in the way, of theft, bearing false witness against others; murder, and adulterating either the chastity of one, or the marital contract of another, etc., and keeping The Sabbath: going to mass; spending time with family, receiving The Eucharist, the body, blood, soul and divinity of Jesus after the host is consecrated. These are very deep, challenging, experiences. The experiences provided through the power of such a sacrament, as The Eucharist, and confession, exist – to a very limited extent – outside The Roman Rite of The Catholic Church. It is through these, and other, experiences that Jesus’ words are lived through what he as a member of The Godhead, gave to us through scripture. The whole of the mass, it is an experience. It is a living out of what Jesus taught. The scriptures make this evident. Jesus provided The Apostles after his Ressurrection, with the authority to begin his church: when he breathed upon them, as his Father breathed life into Adam. After Jesus’ Ascension, The Holy Ghost descended upon The Blessed Virgin Mary, and The Apostles, Pentecost, and therefore, what is recognized as the origin of The Church. You speak about seeing a “medium”, and listening. This sounded contrary to loving God, The First Commandment. Your view of the mass, and what is taught from God’s word, to me is sounding incredibly shallow, arrogant, and judgemental and still, you provide nothing in the way of an answer. There is no secret to be kept concerning Jesus. The work involved to understand: what Jesus teaches, it is more than provided through a book. It is provided through the mass. It is provided by The Holy Ghost, whom cuts effectively through “the mind”, and our own colored glasses, our own psychology if you will. It is provided, experientially, through communion with the angels, and the saints, and through The Eucharist, Jesus as The Bread of Life. Your apparent rejection of this, it is recognized as a severe penalty to be cut away from Jesus’ life, and the life he gives us through the sacrament of The Eucharist. You sound like you have been deeply deceived, and given your pearls to swine. It is a very great sadness, and a deep wound to the body of Christ.

 

[paul_c]

Thanks for asking. The Church, for all its good intentions and works, has a vast array of clerics who are versed far more in book learning than in actual “spirituality,” whatever that might mean. What they have is a very well developed and inherited extremely sincere piety. And heaps of good intentions. Nothing wrong there. But the model of the God/body/mind/soul has somehow gone askew in practice and has become theoretical and displaced.

Do you actually believe that we are “Made in the image and likeness of God?” I am positive that we are. But how that works has been clouded by 2000 years of interpretation and politics. Sorry, the Guidance from Above may actually be there, but ask any medium, the spirit message is always colored by the mind of the receiver. Always. Jesus was not one for dualism. Yet it is outside the Church that non dualism is actually understood and practiced. This is a great sadness. You, if you do the work, will see that the words of Jesus have an entirely different meaning when seen from another perspective, like a “magic picture” that pops into 3-D because you finally get the trick of how to see.

The Gnostics too, thought they had magic insight…Be careful where you go with this.

 

[kbf1970060]

The Gnostics too, thought they had magic insight…Be careful where you go with this.

There can be more to this, than Gnosticism, it can be rooted in Sikhism, and Hinduism, and Buddhism, as well: somewhat isolated apart from Gnosticism, except, perhaps through the Islamic influence in Sikhism.

 

[Whadyamean]

What I am understanding from what you have written, does not sound like an answer, but criticism. You recognize a lack of practice, and experience, and regard the interpretation of The Church, to be askew from what is meant by Jesus’ words. Nonetheless, you give nothing to say, what would correct such matters.

What is the secret: what is the key; what work do you prescribe?

As I have repeatedly said, elsewhere if not here, is that each and every one is made in the image and likeness of God. So, what does that mean? Ask as often as you remember: “Who am I” or better,“What am I.” You will find that your identification with things and eventually your false ideas of yourself will fade out until only what is True about you is left.

Experiences tend to be personal.

Yes. But what is it about you that is impersonally true?

Jesus taught, that … It is through these, and other, experiences that Jesus’ words are lived through what he as a member of The Godhead, gave to us through scripture.

And your evidence that I do not do these things is?

The whole of the mass, it is an experience. It is a living out of what Jesus taught. The scriptures make this evident. Jesus provided The Apostles after his Ressurrection, with the authority to begin his church: when he breathed upon them, as his Father breathed life into Adam. After Jesus’ Ascension, The Holy Ghost descended upon The Blessed Virgin Mary, and The Apostles, Pentecost, and therefore, what is recognized as the origin of The Church.

This is a very wonderful beleif and practice untill you see further, and you may even then continue it. Why not? It is serving youperfectly well. So don’t take what I am saying as applying to you right now. Maybe later, ll!

You speak about seeing a “medium”, and listening.

The only medium I ever witnessed was my sister. Scared the bejeebees out of me! She quite though, thank goodness. No good lies in that realm, as far as I’m concerned!

This sounded contrary to loving God,

You have, because of your particular predeliction due to your training, a very limited range of hearing and interpreting. That is why I continually advocate the art of critical thinking. Where and how did you learn what you know, about anything? Was the source reliable, or did you simply deem it so through peer approval or habit or ignorance of other ways? There is much to be considered in this area, but you nor anyone will do it till you are ready to see something else. and more. I was perfectly happy in my Catholicism until it started to not match my experience in terms of “spiritual” insight.

The First Commandment. Your view of the mass, and what is taught from God’s word, to me is sounding incredibly shallow, arrogant, and judgemental and still, you provide nothing in the way of an answer.

I was very well versed in Catholic theology. There is nothing shallow or judgmental I have to say about those things. In fact, my Mentor composed perhaps one of the most beautiful Latin/English masses I have ever heard. I loved listening to it. I am only saying that due to the heavily symbolic nature of all that, the ordinary parishioner may not be prepared, as I was not, for a deeply transformative experience and will have to go elsewhere for information and guidance, as I did. That was a great disappointment and sadness for me.

There is no secret to be kept concerning Jesus.

Not if you look beyond the veils of symbolism. As Maurice Nicoll pointed out, the parables, as do many teaching modalities, have three levels at least. So does all the teaching of the Church, but it has become obscured for some reason, as far as I can tell.

The work involved to understand: what Jesus teaches, it is more than provided through a book. It is provided through the mass. It is provided by The Holy Ghost, whom cuts effectively through “the mind”, and our own colored glasses, our own psychology if you will. It is provided, experientially, through communion with the angels, and the saints, and through The Eucharist, Jesus as The Bread of Life. Your apparent rejection of this, it is recognized as a severe penalty to be cut away from Jesus’ life, and the life he gives us through the sacrament of The Eucharist.

As I maintain, that stance is absolutely wonderful and necessary for you and merits your practice and devotion. That is just fine. I just see it differently now, in a more wonderful and encompassing way. But that is from my standpoint.

You sound like you have been deeply deceived, and given your pearls to swine. It is a very great sadness, and a deep wound to the body of Christ.

It is very strange that yousay that, because a common outcry from many who have seen what I have is "I have not been decieved! We have to remember that timing is different for everyone. I am only telling my story for those who might resonate with it. I have no agenda for convincing you or changing your mind. And I do not wish for you to question your Faith. This is only about how I found a way away from belief into something much more solid. It is inevitable, and yet it is not something that can be “switched on,” though work may be done to become receptive. Think of all the work the Saints did! They are remarkably wonderful examples.

 

[paul_c]

As I have repeatedly said, elsewhere if not here, is that each and every one is made in the image and likeness of God. So, what does that mean? Ask as often as you remember: “Who am I” or better,“What am I.” You will find that your identification with things and eventually your false ideas of yourself will fade out until only what is True about you is left.

If we are made in the image and likeness of God, is it better to try to see ourselves or to see God? You know, God showed himself as Jesus Christ for exactly this purpose. It seems you are abandonning that view…

And your evidence that I do not do these things is? This is a very wonderful beleif and practice untill you see further, and you may even then continue it. Why not? It is serving youperfectly well. So don’t take what I am saying as applying to you right now. Maybe later, ll!

You are being as presumptuous as those you are addressing. How do you know that they haven’t got more spiritual insight than you do? How do you know your path is the right one? Particularly when the path you are abandonning is so much better attested than the one you plotting out on your own.

The only medium I ever witnessed was my sister. Scared the bejeebees out of me! She quite though, thank goodness. No good lies in that realm, as far as I’m concerned!

Well, on that we can agree.

You have, because of your particular predeliction due to your training, a very limited range of hearing and interpreting. That is why I continually advocate the art of critical thinking. Where and how did you learn what you know, about anything? Was the source reliable, or did you simply deem it so through peer approval or habit or ignorance of other ways? There is much to be considered in this area, but you nor anyone will do it till you are ready to see something else. and more. I was perfectly happy in my Catholicism until it started to not match my experience in terms of “spiritual” insight.I was very well versed in Catholic theology. There is nothing shallow or judgmental I have to say about those things. In fact, my Mentor composed perhaps one of the most beautiful Latin/English masses I have ever heard. I loved listening to it. I am only saying that due to the heavily symbolic nature of all that, the ordinary parishioner may not be prepared, as I was not, for a deeply transformative experience and will have to go elsewhere for information and guidance, as I did. That was a great disappointment and sadness for me. Not if you look beyond the veils of symbolism. As Maurice Nicoll pointed out, the parables, as do many teaching modalities, have three levels at least. So does all the teaching of the Church, but it has become obscured for some reason, as far as I can tell. As I maintain, that stance is absolutely wonderful and necessary for you and merits your practice and devotion. That is just fine. I just see it differently now, in a more wonderful and encompassing way. But that is from my standpoint. It is very strange that yousay that, because a common outcry from many who have seen what I have is "*I have not *been decieved! We have to remember that timing is different for everyone. I am only telling my story for those who might resonate with it. I have no agenda for convincing you or changing your mind. And I do not wish for you to question your Faith. This is only about how I found a way away from belief into something much more solid. It is inevitable, and yet it is not something that can be “switched on,” though work may be done to become receptive. Think of all the work the Saints did! They are remarkably wonderful examples.

Yes, think of what the saints did. They stayed true to the Catholic Church. Why do you think you know better than they do?

 

[Whadyamean]

If we are made in the image and likeness of God, is it better to try to see ourselves or to see God? You know, God showed himself as Jesus Christ for exactly this purpose. It seems you are abandonning that view.If?

As far as I am concerned, we are. You appear to have a limited view as to how and what we can see. Very limited. You are far more capable than perhaps you will ever give yourself a chance to discover. And of course who would want to delve into personality? That’s a psychological approach, though man inclusions in personality prevent clear seeing as do the cracks in an imperfect diamond distort the light. Personality, in fact, is the imperfections. The point of looking to what finally must be the image within ourselves is to systematically eliminate the false identifications we have of who and what we are other than the children of God and see what that ultimately means. It takes work. Lots of persistent work. Call it prayer, if you like, or practicing the Divine Presence. Labels don’t work very well past a certain point, if you have considered what language is even in the least bit.

You are being as presumptuous as those you are addressing. How do you know that they haven’t got more spiritual insight than you do?

Having used the language and referents that “those” use, whomever they might be, I’m assuming you mean you, I have been there. It is beautiful, wonderful essentially true, and incomplete in practical depth as far as I can see.

How do you know your path is the right one?

It works. It is the most functionally accurate model so far, as far as models can point to something absolutely ineffable.

Particularly when the path you are abandonning is so much better attested than the one you plotting out on your own.

No, not really. And I haven’t abandoned it; I discovered it’s essence. In fact, anythinig you can marshal form the Church is simply a stepped down version of what I’m pointing to. So thanks for the support.

Yes, think of what the saints did. They stayed true to the Catholic Church. Why do you think you know better than they do?

I am not sure exactly what they knew. I’d love to meet many of them, as I am fond of their stories and admire their diligence and devotion. Who wouldn’t. But why do you think that there are only Catholic :saints???"