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qui_est_ce
Guest
I just got a CD with a similar title from Scott Hahn
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pismopal
Guest
Baptist pastors (God bless them) are under a lot of pressure to be charismatic, entertaining, uplifting and dynamic speakers. If they don’t perform they have to move on until they find a niche or relegate to assistant pastor. I am not with the baptist denom anymore as you can see above BUT I still feel a little empathy for the job they have. My priest, no priest that I have heard, says the “same thing service after service”. The repetative nature of the mass is a source of comfort and reassurance to most Catholics and if the homilly hits a particular chord then this is just an added bonus. My priest is a former English professor and a dynamic speaker but I am at mass for Holy Communion and the liturgy not for an emotional reponse for myself.
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Sunflower15
Guest
I do not mean any disrespect or judgment. I do struggle with the fact that some people may go through life “church hopping” looking for spiritual fulfillment. Huh?
I do understand that I may be completely wrong on this one.
I still have to say that I cannot understand this problem.
One brings to Church. One doesn’t take away from Church.
Church is US, not the priest/pastor, sermon/homily, but US [God’s people] together worshiping.
Honestly, if Sts. Peter & Paul themselves were leading the worship, if my heart is not in it, it would not be “fulfilling”.
I always wondered why Martin Luther did not stay and influence the Church from within, rather than go start another one…the same with all the others…I guess it’s the same principle!
Let’s go down the street & start yet another denomination & see what happens! How many denominations will it take? I have friends that are the same denomination [to me they are all Baptists or Methodists or Anglicans] but among themselves, they say they are entirely different [entirely different types of Baptists, Methodists or Anglicans].
So, is it like a Franciscan saying to a Jesuit, that they aren’t just as Catholic? Or a Dominican to a Carmelite? We do have different spirituality traditions, but all just as Catholic, without questioning their “way”. For example, I like something about each one of our Catholic spiritual traditions [of the ones I know so far]. And, I don’t think they contradict each other at all!
I am not “bashing” other denominations. I like something from each of them as well. However, I am concerned about the divisions & sub-divisions…where does that lead to?
And, the Holy Spirit is inside each of us, from baptism. HE goes where WE go…in us…the Church…
I do understand that I may be completely wrong on this one.
I still have to say that I cannot understand this problem.
One brings to Church. One doesn’t take away from Church.
Church is US, not the priest/pastor, sermon/homily, but US [God’s people] together worshiping.
Honestly, if Sts. Peter & Paul themselves were leading the worship, if my heart is not in it, it would not be “fulfilling”.
I always wondered why Martin Luther did not stay and influence the Church from within, rather than go start another one…the same with all the others…I guess it’s the same principle!
Let’s go down the street & start yet another denomination & see what happens! How many denominations will it take? I have friends that are the same denomination [to me they are all Baptists or Methodists or Anglicans] but among themselves, they say they are entirely different [entirely different types of Baptists, Methodists or Anglicans].
So, is it like a Franciscan saying to a Jesuit, that they aren’t just as Catholic? Or a Dominican to a Carmelite? We do have different spirituality traditions, but all just as Catholic, without questioning their “way”. For example, I like something about each one of our Catholic spiritual traditions [of the ones I know so far]. And, I don’t think they contradict each other at all!
I am not “bashing” other denominations. I like something from each of them as well. However, I am concerned about the divisions & sub-divisions…where does that lead to?
And, the Holy Spirit is inside each of us, from baptism. HE goes where WE go…in us…the Church…
J
josie_L
Guest
That’s such a silly thing to believe, Allis, how old are you? I would gather you do not know much about the CC. Have you ever been to service after service?
For example, Priests are moved about from one Church congregation to another (they may even have to go to another country) in less than the 8 to 10 years you professed for Baptist pastors. Also, each Mass has a different set of Scriptures read during the Liturgy of the Word, in fact, there is no part of the Bible that is not read. It takes fully three years for the Bible to be read in its entirety at Mass. As such, we get the benefits of sermons based on scripture that most or some Christian pastors would probably neglect.
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SD_Catholic
Guest
I’m not sure on this (maybe someone knows for sure)… but I suspect allischalmers is a male… that is a brand of tractor (mostly old tractors)… plus his rudeness is more manlike than womanlike
SD
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Sunflower15
Guest
Well…I was hoping someone would tackle this one…any volunteers?
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elvisman
Guest
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Sunflower15
Guest
I am glad that you posted your thoughts. It’s just that it sounds more like a political platform than your thoughts.
First of all, no, not only Jesus…but rather: the Father, the Son AND the Holy Spirit must be praised and worshiped! I am not aware of any Christians that worship anyone else.
Jesus Himself reaches “the lost” within their hearts, we simply witness to Him, by keeping His centuries-old teachings and traditions…the Holy Spirit does the “real” work. Or Heaven would be quite empty!
There is no way to argue with the other 2, but I doubt that these are nearly as important as the Sacraments! Vibrant or not…
Though, I wish you could know what it feels like to adore in the Presence of the Eucharist in an Adoration Chapel…I guess only Quakers could come close to understanding that “within” type of worship…Though it is quite special when in the Presence of Jesus in Full Glory “as He sits at the right hand of the Father” while right in front of our eyes! I have been literally moved to tears of joy! [and I rarely ever cry…] I can’t imagine anything more “vibrant”!
First of all, no, not only Jesus…but rather: the Father, the Son AND the Holy Spirit must be praised and worshiped! I am not aware of any Christians that worship anyone else.
Jesus Himself reaches “the lost” within their hearts, we simply witness to Him, by keeping His centuries-old teachings and traditions…the Holy Spirit does the “real” work. Or Heaven would be quite empty!
There is no way to argue with the other 2, but I doubt that these are nearly as important as the Sacraments! Vibrant or not…
Though, I wish you could know what it feels like to adore in the Presence of the Eucharist in an Adoration Chapel…I guess only Quakers could come close to understanding that “within” type of worship…Though it is quite special when in the Presence of Jesus in Full Glory “as He sits at the right hand of the Father” while right in front of our eyes! I have been literally moved to tears of joy! [and I rarely ever cry…] I can’t imagine anything more “vibrant”!
D
DLClark
Guest
The homely that your priest uses is not prepared from the Bible but from the teaching magesterium of the church. On the other hand the pastor of a Bible/Baptist church uses onlt the Bible God Word and that alone for his message. He prepares it himself using sound exegesis and hermenuetics.I can’t speak for other priests but my own priest does not use the same homily for each sermon. He is a very good speaker.
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Sunflower15
Guest
You are mistaken. The homily is prepared by each priest. In the same parish, we have 3 priests, each does the homily differently, when we have different Masses the same day. Each is based on Scripture, since we have one reading from the Old Testament, one from the Psalms, and one from the New Testament on each and every day of the year. And the complete rotation takes three years, since priests cannot pick and choose from the Bible…the ENTIRE Bible must be preached by every single parish, worldwide! No choosing by any human!
Of course, no priest will preach contrary to the Bible or the traditions, which is what I guess you mean by “the Magisterium”. I do hope you agree that is a VERY good thing! Imagine if any priest could just come up with some crazy idea out of nowhere [not the Bible or Church tradition] and preach it!
It did sound like you think that the opinions of any particular pastor should be much better than those of the entire Magisterium…hm, m…
T
twopekinguys
Guest
You couldn’t be more wrong.
The homily presented during Mass is in direct relationship to the scriptures read during the Mass.
You could go to 3 different Catholic churches on the same day, and hear the same readings from the Bible, but hear 3 different homilies.
The presiding priest prepares his homily with guidance from the Holy Spirit, based on those readings.
If you attend Sunday Mass every Sunday for three years, you will hear virtually the entire Bible. If you attend all daily Masses in addition to all Sunday Masses, you will here the entire Bible in two years. Which is something that cannot be said for many (if not all) protestant churches.
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Cat
Guest
I was born and raised in the Conference Baptist churches.
First of all, Baptist churches are NOT liturgical. So when Protestants say that the Catholic Church does the same thing week after week, of course they know that you do different Bible passages, different hymns, etc. But the ORDER OF SERVICE is the same, and yes, that is a whole lot easier on the priest to plan things. You will never (hopefully) see the homily moved to the beginning of the Mass so that there will be more time for the choir mini-concert at the end of the Mass, and the next week, the homily will be totally left out so that the puppet team can perform the mission program that they will be taking over to Ethiopia, and the week after that the Communion will be held at the beginning of Mass so that everyone will be able to watch the slide show of the Ethiopan mission trip after Communion.
But that’s the way Baptist churches work.
In Baptist churches, every single worship service is different. One week you might see a drama with no sermon at all. The next week, you might see a concert followed by an evangelical “tent-meeting style” sermon and altar call. Another week you might have a Question and Answer format.
It’s basically like planning a theatrical season, only many Baptist churches have two or more worship services on Sundays (and some are doing Saturday evening services now), so you will have anywhere from 52 to 156 “services” to plan. And they ALL have to be different.
That’s not counting all the missions conferences (usually a service every night of the week), the prayer conferences (usually at least three nights during the week), the Christmas/Easter cantata and other special Christmas/Easter services, and all of the weddings and funerals (which also are never liturgical).
And remember, in a Baptist church, if your sermon is not at least a half hour to 45 minutes long, you are NOT a good preacher.
And ALL of these services should be “different!” Nowadays, it is considered very bad when a church service is exactly the same week after week. “Variety” is the keyword in planning worship services. Keep the congregation on the edge of their seats. Don’t ever let them become “complacent,” (like those Catholics down the block!).
So please, Catholics, cut Protestants some slack here. I’ve been Catholic now for five years, and I play piano, and frankly, it’s soooooo easy to do Masses compared with the huge production process that is necessary to put on a good worship service week after week, month after month.
You can see why Baptist ministers “burn out.” Eventually, you just run out of ideas for making things “different.”
First of all, Baptist churches are NOT liturgical. So when Protestants say that the Catholic Church does the same thing week after week, of course they know that you do different Bible passages, different hymns, etc. But the ORDER OF SERVICE is the same, and yes, that is a whole lot easier on the priest to plan things. You will never (hopefully) see the homily moved to the beginning of the Mass so that there will be more time for the choir mini-concert at the end of the Mass, and the next week, the homily will be totally left out so that the puppet team can perform the mission program that they will be taking over to Ethiopia, and the week after that the Communion will be held at the beginning of Mass so that everyone will be able to watch the slide show of the Ethiopan mission trip after Communion.
But that’s the way Baptist churches work.
In Baptist churches, every single worship service is different. One week you might see a drama with no sermon at all. The next week, you might see a concert followed by an evangelical “tent-meeting style” sermon and altar call. Another week you might have a Question and Answer format.
It’s basically like planning a theatrical season, only many Baptist churches have two or more worship services on Sundays (and some are doing Saturday evening services now), so you will have anywhere from 52 to 156 “services” to plan. And they ALL have to be different.
That’s not counting all the missions conferences (usually a service every night of the week), the prayer conferences (usually at least three nights during the week), the Christmas/Easter cantata and other special Christmas/Easter services, and all of the weddings and funerals (which also are never liturgical).
And remember, in a Baptist church, if your sermon is not at least a half hour to 45 minutes long, you are NOT a good preacher.
And ALL of these services should be “different!” Nowadays, it is considered very bad when a church service is exactly the same week after week. “Variety” is the keyword in planning worship services. Keep the congregation on the edge of their seats. Don’t ever let them become “complacent,” (like those Catholics down the block!).
So please, Catholics, cut Protestants some slack here. I’ve been Catholic now for five years, and I play piano, and frankly, it’s soooooo easy to do Masses compared with the huge production process that is necessary to put on a good worship service week after week, month after month.
You can see why Baptist ministers “burn out.” Eventually, you just run out of ideas for making things “different.”
S
Sunflower15
Guest
I am glad that you posted your thoughts. It’s just that it sounds more like a political platform than your thoughts.
First of all, no, not only Jesus…but rather: the Father, the Son AND the Holy Spirit must be praised and worshiped! I am not aware of any Christians that worship anyone else.
Jesus Himself reaches “the lost” within their hearts, we simply witness to Him, by keeping His centuries-old teachings and traditions…the Holy Spirit does the “real” work. Or Heaven would be quite empty!
There is no way to argue with the other 2, but I doubt that these are nearly as important as the Sacraments! Vibrant or not…
Though, I wish you could know what it feels like to adore in the Presence of the Eucharist in an Adoration Chapel…I guess only Quakers could come close to understanding that “within” type of worship…Though it is quite special when in the Presence of Jesus in Full Glory “as He sits at the right hand of the Father” while right in front of our eyes! I have been literally moved to tears of joy! [and I rarely ever cry…] I can’t imagine anything more “vibrant”!
I agree about the “denominational names were made up by humans” part…I just didn’t want to go there…
Jesus did create a Church…it has split, unfortunately…and there are a few churches and traditions worldwide. But, denominations…well, I’m lost on that one…I don’t know why we have them, frankly.
F
Filioque
Guest
Jesus alone? Not the Father or the Holy Ghost?
I’ll have to agree with you on the other point. The NAMES of the denominations all have human origins. I do however believe (from searching the Scriptures) That one of them was FOUNDED by Jesus, and that is the Catholic Church.
T
twopekinguys
Guest
I have to agree with what you’ve said. I attended a Southern Baptist church for a while, and what you describe is very accurate.
While the pastor was a very nice guy, I noticed he liked preaching a “theme”. He would stick on one topic for 4 or 5 weeks, then go to a different topic, so on and so on. The different guest preachers or revivals would center around whatever his theme was at the the time.
Not to be mean, but they covered more of the hymal than they did the Bible.
I play the organ, but I never let them know it…lol
C
Cat
Guest
I would encourage the OP to think deeply about why the co-worker is talking to him/her about their “church” problems. Why did the co-worker come to a “Catholic,” of all people, and share their spiritual dryness? That’s very interesting.
Perhaps the co-worker is feeling around trying to figure out if they should look into the Catholic Church.
A lot of evangelical Protestants (Baptists are evangelical) are very weary of the week-after-week theatrics, the never-ending membership drives, the emotional roller-coaster, the endless variety of professional music (whatever happened to someone’s maiden aunt leading a simple choir anthem?), the loooooong sermons that really don’t say much, the lack of Bible readings, and above all else, the LACK OF COMMUNION!
Many Baptist churches have reduced Communion down to 4X a year. Even though it’s just a symbolic ceremony iin Baptist churches, their Communion is still a shadow of the real thing, a “crumb” so to speak, from the real meal that Catholics feast on at every Mass.
My husband and I were literally “starved” for Holy Communion. Our EFree church was only doing a communion service a few times a year, and we had missed it (due to work and skating practices) for almost two years. We were so hungry.
Lots of Protestants are searching for peace and stability and JESUS in their church.
When my husband and I first attended Mass at the very contemporary-looking Catholic Church down the road from our house, we felt that we had stepped back in time 1000 years. It was so refreshing and peaceful to participate in a “liturgy.” And when we saw all the people going up for Communion, we KNEW that Jesus was on the altar.
So perhaps…your co-worker is fishing.
Give them something to nibble on. Tell them how fulfilled you are when you attend Mass and receive Jesus in Holy Communion. You don’t have to be obnoxious. Just throw your Protestant friend a bone. Or perhaps a better phrase would be to throw them a lifeline. It’s not up to you to convert them, it’s up to the Holy Spirit. But at least give the Holy Spirit something to work with here!
And by all means, invite your co-worker to come to Mass with you! So many Catholics never dream of inviting Protestant friends to Mass, and so many Protestant friends are dying to know what actually goes on in a Catholic Mass. Invite your co-worker, and make sure that before the Mass, you give them a copy of a good pamphlet or tract that explains the Mass in simple terms. (I believe that there are such tracts on this website.)
Don’t worry about abuses and irreverences and all the rest. Believe me, your Baptist friend will find the most contemporary Mass a staid, traditional ritual compared to what they are used to.
Perhaps the co-worker is feeling around trying to figure out if they should look into the Catholic Church.
A lot of evangelical Protestants (Baptists are evangelical) are very weary of the week-after-week theatrics, the never-ending membership drives, the emotional roller-coaster, the endless variety of professional music (whatever happened to someone’s maiden aunt leading a simple choir anthem?), the loooooong sermons that really don’t say much, the lack of Bible readings, and above all else, the LACK OF COMMUNION!
Many Baptist churches have reduced Communion down to 4X a year. Even though it’s just a symbolic ceremony iin Baptist churches, their Communion is still a shadow of the real thing, a “crumb” so to speak, from the real meal that Catholics feast on at every Mass.
My husband and I were literally “starved” for Holy Communion. Our EFree church was only doing a communion service a few times a year, and we had missed it (due to work and skating practices) for almost two years. We were so hungry.
Lots of Protestants are searching for peace and stability and JESUS in their church.
When my husband and I first attended Mass at the very contemporary-looking Catholic Church down the road from our house, we felt that we had stepped back in time 1000 years. It was so refreshing and peaceful to participate in a “liturgy.” And when we saw all the people going up for Communion, we KNEW that Jesus was on the altar.
So perhaps…your co-worker is fishing.
Give them something to nibble on. Tell them how fulfilled you are when you attend Mass and receive Jesus in Holy Communion. You don’t have to be obnoxious. Just throw your Protestant friend a bone. Or perhaps a better phrase would be to throw them a lifeline. It’s not up to you to convert them, it’s up to the Holy Spirit. But at least give the Holy Spirit something to work with here!And by all means, invite your co-worker to come to Mass with you! So many Catholics never dream of inviting Protestant friends to Mass, and so many Protestant friends are dying to know what actually goes on in a Catholic Mass. Invite your co-worker, and make sure that before the Mass, you give them a copy of a good pamphlet or tract that explains the Mass in simple terms. (I believe that there are such tracts on this website.)
Don’t worry about abuses and irreverences and all the rest. Believe me, your Baptist friend will find the most contemporary Mass a staid, traditional ritual compared to what they are used to.
E
emarc
Guest
i didn’t quite get it when you said “Unlike catholic priest that say the same thing service after service.” are you referring to the missal readings, to the Priest’s homily, or to prayers? have you attended a Catholic mass? i could appreciate the preparation efforts done by Pastors, but i don’t see any difference with Catholic Priests, if you are referring to their homilies. we have 3 readings prior to his homily; the 1st reading from the OT, 2nd reading from one of the Epistles and finally the Gospel read by either the Deacon or the Priest, after which the Priest delivers his homilies; interweaving applicable lessons from the 3 readings. between the 1st and 2nd readings, we recite the Psalms just as the Apostles did with the early Christians. The word Christian was first used by St. Ignatius at Antioch (Acts) and Catholics (meaning Universal) follows thereafter. to me it’s more preparation and difficulty in preparation what Catholic Priests do compared to a regular Pastor who, i believe, does only a Bible study lesson. i did attend a couple of times non-Catholic service and what i witnessed was exactly what i said - choir singing and bible lessons, and sometimes altar call.
God bless.
S
Sunflower15
Guest
First of all, THANKS for explaining this!
I had no idea of the work involved in these services. I guess we should borrow and learn some of those incredible skills for our Christmas Creches, or Lent’s Via Crucis, etc.
But, I can’t help to think how much we have to add in order to fill the void left by lack of the Eucharist, though…
I guess Baptists [and other Protestants] must wonder how on Earth are we SO happy with our Liturgy year after year! ~LOL
The “interactive” and “dramatic” parts are filled by the Sacraments… not the same experience twice EVER!
And, I don’t know about you, but I am very glad that most priests don’t ever reach that “minimum sermon length” that you’re talking about…they would have to repeat themselves over and over again!
S
SassysMum
Guest
YES!
My in laws are Baptist, I have 3 uncles that are Baptist preachers and I’m surrounded by all Baptist neighbors. None agree 100% on what they believe. A couple brief examples…Some view Baptism as symbolic only, others see it as washing away their sins. Some believe OSAS, others believe that they can fall from grace. The only thing they do agree on is…Wine was actually grape juice and to drink actual wine is a big no-no.
This is only my personal experience. I can’t speak for the other groups of Baptists because there’s many more that are not in my area.
S
Sunflower15
Guest
Thanks again for explaining what it looks like from the “outside”. I have been Catholic all my life. Not only that, I have been in Catholic schools all my life, 1st grade through college.…
Perhaps the co-worker is feeling around trying to figure out if they should look into the Catholic Church.
…
I don’t think God will grant me enough time to read all the Doctors of the Church, or the lives of all the saints…so that I can learn what is it like “humbly walking with God”…
I do notice that many people, [of all faiths], ask me to pray for them. Strangely, even when I say I pray the Rosary & the Divine Mercy Chaplet and I see them “wince”…their next statement is “please, pray for me”… When I explain something “Catholic” [just for clarity’s sake, I never try to convert anyone out of respect], they always, ALWAYS, answer…“but Everything [the music, the service, the prayer] in the Catholic church is SO DEAD”… I almost feel like replying: “so, why are You asking ME to pray for You, then?” Where do you think I “recharge” my batteries? At the Sacraments & the Liturgy & the Adoration Chapel & the Rosary/Divine Mercy Chaplet…none of those things feel “dead” to me! They give me LIFE! No exorbitant, dramatic “performance” needed…
What is it that looks “SO DEAD”? I am always left speechless… because I can’t possibly answer to something that alien to me. Or, they something to the effect that I should go to their church to meet Jesus and have a “personal” relationship with Him…what other type of relationship can persons have? If I don’t even know Jesus, How come they ask ME to pray for them? [much less have a relationship that allows me to intercede for others?]
I am always SO concerned that I might sound offensive, because I’m SO “lost” when they say something regarding Catholicism…the misunderstandings run so deep!
Thanks for explaining what it looks like from the “other” side
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