My disillusioned marriage (UPDATE)

[Liberanosamalo]

I’m not chastising you. You’re making good progress. This isn’t about “not being good enough.” Just keep up the good work. Now you’re talking about YOUR FEELINGS to the person to whom it matters to most. Find the joy in sharing yourself with him. That’s kind of at the heart of all this problem. Until you find joy in sharing your mind and heart and feelings with him, you won’t have any joy in sharing your body with him.

 

[Augusta_Sans]

I’m not chastising you. You’re making good progress. This isn’t about “not being good enough.” Just keep up the good work. Now you’re talking about YOUR FEELINGS to the person to whom it matters to most. Find the joy in sharing yourself with him. That’s kind of at the heart of all this problem. Until you find joy in sharing your mind and heart and feelings with him, you won’t have any joy in sharing your body with him.

Thanks. How can I “find joy in sharing my mind and heart and feelings with him”?

 

[FrenchGwen]

Thanks. How can I “find joy in sharing my mind and heart and feelings with him”?

I think Liber answered that one already, and I can answer it too, in slightly different words : imagine what HE’s feeling, put yourself in his shoes : imagine how happy HE is, when he hears you pouring your heart into his. Can you imagine that ?

I found that when I accepted to change my point of view, and to put myself in DH’s shoes, I managed to see things in a wholly different manner : for him, it was the fact that he simply LOVES going to the museum / theater / … with me. I was no great fan of it (ie: I did everything I could to avoid our going:shrug. Then I tried and really made an effort to see these things with his eyes, and instead of doing anything to avoid them, I began planning them for him, telling him “maybe tomorrow we could go and spend a few hours at the Louvre museum”… What happened ? I focused on and began enjoying the joy I was thus giving to him.
KWIM ?

edit : antoher example: just before the Advent started, I bought and hid a Chocolate Advent Calender for DH (because he had whined he got one when he was a kid), until the Advent started and I took it out and gave him to him as a surprise. I was so happy to have got this idea, I knew he would be so happy about it, and laugh, and rejoyce each and everyday about this tiny chocolate thing he could eat. So within my own heart I was already smiling and rejoycing about his reaction.
Focus on his reaction, not yours. You’ll see it does taste great ;-), as if YOURSELF were eating the chocolate.

 

[Liberanosamalo]

I"m having trouble understanding why you find so little joy in doing things for and with this man. From everything you say, he is one incredible, patient, forgiving and faithful person. There are a whole lotta loathesome bastards out there, and you have found a very good man. One you can trust. By everything you’ve said, you’ve had no trouble sharing yourself with other people. And had fun doing it.

Something is preventing you from giving any good part of yourself to this guy. He’s smart, good-looking, religious, loves you madly… yet you hold back and find no pleasure in giving yourself to him.

He deserves more than that. Until you can answer why you only seem to want to use him as a platonic friend, then you won’t have an answer to how to make the joy come.

If you can’t, put him back on the market. I promise you someone else will come along and appreciate him. And THEN I fear he will become the most incredible man in your mind and THEN you will want him like you never imagined, when you see him out and about and praying with some other woman in church and holding her hand and laughing with her, as SHE joyfully loves him and shares herself with him. For your sake, you need to find a way to keep this from happening.

This is the same thing you need to know to be a mother. It does NOT give you joy to get up at 2 am for a feeding. Or to diaper and bathe a baby several times in a day to keep it clean, other than the joy it gives to make the baby comfortable and happy. It requires a climbing out of your own head and your own comfort zone to look at life from someone else’s point of view and put your own feelings last.

The same for sex. When you’re thinking about your own satisfaction, you’re doomed never to get it. When you work to make the other have pleasure, that’s when you find your own.

You can’t force feelings. But sitting around and thinking about them all the time doesn’t work either. Sometimes, you just have to live life without constantly thinking “How does this make me feel?”

Are you saying that doing something for him and watching him smile in appreciation doesn’t give you any pleasure at all?

 

[tafan]

Augusta Sans,

I know I am jumping in late and I have not read the entire thread, but from the first few of your posts, something struck me. I think that you are expecting the strong feeling of love to come naturally and automatically. You need to remember that love is an act of will. If love was only an uncontrollable emotion, how could Jesus have given us the commandment to love our neighbor. Strong feelings of love for someone come over time primarily as a result of acts of love you do for that person. Believe it or not, the acts of love and kindness another does for us is a secondary cause. You they love someone after you have been kind to them (and yes, in the context of a marriage, this includes the marriage act).
Many in today’s “chick-flick” culture think will fall head over heels for someone, get married and be pationately in love for ever. We are fed this through TV and movies all the time and it sets us up for failure. Falling head-over-heels for someone is infatuation and it can be a very good thing, it often is what gets us married in the first place. But that doesn’t last, never. But true love, springing forth from acts of kindness one does on a daily basis, is much more strong feeling and comes over time.
A marriage counselor once said, “Every morning you have to get up and decide how you are going to love your spouse today.”

Just a thought.

 

[GoBison]

He deserves more than that.

Right now he doesn’t even believe that. But he will someday and it will probably be too late for the marriage to be saved.

I like to read what you write Augusta because it gives me insight into my wife.

I really hope that you don’t tell your husband that you enjoy him sharing his feelings but you see no point in sharing yours. He is still doing all the work to save your marriage while you are going through the motions. Why? Probably because he feels he has to and places a lot higher value on you and your marriage than you place on him and your marriage. And the value he places on himself may not be all that high.

He has a wife that had an affair. And yeah beleive me no matter what he may say he thinks about it. And feels he is the one having to do the work to make it better. You may be there with him which is a start but he knows how much you really don’t want to do it.

 

[Augusta_Sans]

He has a wife that had an affair.

It is really not fair to say I had an affair. Affair implies I was lying, cheating, and sneaking around while we were married. We had been separated for a very long time and divorced for several months before I dated someone else. During the time I dated the other person, I was open and honest with my ex about the situation.

 

[Augusta_Sans]

You can’t force feelings. But sitting around and thinking about them all the time doesn’t work either. Sometimes, you just have to live life without constantly thinking “How does this make me feel?”

Are you familiar with Retrouvaille dialoguing? The whole process is to sit down and concentrate and write about “How does this make me feel?” Your response really proved my point–I do not enjoy the part of the process where we focus on my redundant over-hashed feelings. I do enjoy the part where we talk about his feelings. Are you not seeing the connection here?

Are you saying that doing something for him and watching him smile in appreciation doesn’t give you any pleasure at all?

No, you are saying that, and trying to put those words in my mouth when I have said THE EXACT OPPOSITE. PLEASE try reading what I have written and compare it to what you have written. It’s like you’re not even bothering to read anything I’ve written, but are instead using this thread as an opportunity for you to spew general truisms at me, as though I haven’t JUST expressed the exact same thought.

 

[GoBison]

It is really not fair to say I had an affair. Affair implies I was lying, cheating, and sneaking around while we were married. We had been separated for a very long time and divorced for several months before I dated someone else. During the time I dated the other person, I was open and honest with my ex about the situation.

Fair to who? You or him. Did he still look at you as married? ie not annulled. Because he knew about it is ok? Does he feel the same way about it?

 

[Augusta_Sans]

Fair to who? You or him. Did he still look at you as married? ie not annulled. Because he knew about it is ok? Does he feel the same way about it?

It’s not fair to anyone, because it’s not true. He still wanted to be with me, but acknowledged that divorce marked the end of our relationship. He went on a few dates after our divorce (though it did not lead to a relationship).

 

[dulcissima]

It is really not fair to say I had an affair. Affair implies I was lying, cheating, and sneaking around while we were married. We had been separated for a very long time and divorced for several months before I dated someone else. During the time I dated the other person, I was open and honest with my ex about the situation.

It was a hard cold calculated affair, a total rejection of him. Just because you told him point blank that you didn’t enjoy sex with him, were divorcing him, and were going to have sex with someone else does not mean you did not cheat on him. This was not something you did by losing your head in a moment of passion or weakness. You deliberately and totally rejected him and gave what you promised to share with only him to another man.

 

[tafan]

Augusta Sans:

Are you familiar with Retrouvaille dialoguing? The whole process is to sit down and concentrate and write about “How does this make me feel?” Your response really proved my point–I do not enjoy the part of the process where we focus on my redundant over-hashed feelings. I do enjoy the part where we talk about his feelings. Are you not seeing the connection here?

I will not comment on the Retrouvaille Dialoguing, but I think GoBison and I are on the same page. While communicating about your feelings may/may not help, IMO doing things (hard concrete) actions for him, will help. It seems you are very focused on the sharing feelings and talking your way through this concept, but not too much on the action part of it (I did see the comment about going to the hockey games, this is probably good).
Does he like something particularly for breakfast? get up and cook it for him
Does he hate doing laundry? Do it for him
Does he love a good back rub? give him a back rub in the evening
Does he have a car he likes a lot? wash it for him
Does he enjoy going to the coffee shop? go with him

Just examples, the list could go on and on. It is by these small actions, day-in/day-out, that we do for someone else, that we grow to love someone more and more.
Overtime, you won’t even think twice about doing things for each other, and it won’t seem like a burden at all. Of course, this all gets easier once you have kids, since both of you will recognize that caring for the kids becomes a proxy for these same acts.

 

[whatevergirl]

*Augusta…I did not go through the same details as you and your husband, but when we ‘‘merged’’ back together after being separated (we were not legally divorced) …it took a long time to get back on track. It took a long time for my husband to trust that I wanted to be back, working on the marriage. You can’t fight that. I tried to fight it too…but, it will just take time. Your husband loves you, and wants you to move back in, etc…but I am here to tell you–this takes time. Those are gestures by your husband, to begin anew, but your husband will take time to come around in the trust department again. Trusting that you are coming back for the right reasons, and that you really love him and want a forever marriage.

You and he can talk about feelings for a long time, but the fact remains…it will take a long time for him to trust again. No matter what you say to him right now. I think that you just need to be patient…One day, it will seem like this never happened…and you never had a split. It’s strange like that. My husband and I wiped the slate clean and started a new…but it took a long time. It took me a long time, too…to develop into a more loving, sacrificing Catholic wife. So…just be patient with yourself and your husband. That is my best advice for you both. Barring that, you will only frustrate yourself and the process.

I hope things get better. *

 

[GoBison]

As long as the both of you know that and have honestly discussed it, it doesn’t matter to me or anyone else on here.

What I am trying to point out is what seems like a lack of empathy that you have for your husband. He waited around for 2 years while you treated him like a friend and had a boyfriend. Now that you want to try and things aren’t going as fast as you want you get frustrated with the process. The guy waited around for 2 years for you and 3 weeks after Retro you complain about all the dialouging and how much you dislike it. And yeah I know you are doing it.

 

[ComputerGeek25]

As long as the both of you know that and have honestly discussed it, it doesn’t matter to me or anyone else on here.

What I am trying to point out is what seems like a lack of empathy that you have for your husband. He waited around for 2 years while you treated him like a friend and had a boyfriend. Now that you want to try and things aren’t going as fast as you want you get frustrated with the process. The guy waited around for 2 years for you and 3 weeks after Retro you complain about all the dialouging and how much you dislike it. And yeah I know you are doing it.

(Just jumping in, been following this thread, and this is a good assessment I think)

 

[joandarc2008]

Augusta - I love you and I am not judging you - any one of us that has ever looked at another has already committed adultery in our hearts and I doubt anyone on the site wants to start throwing rocks - but the wonderful thing about the Sacraments is that we can be forgiven by God. However, before there is penance is acceptance and repentance. I think you first look at the fact that yes you BOTH committed adultery, deal with the infidelity and then the marriage you will both be a lot happier.

 

[The_Bucket]

As long as the both of you know that and have honestly discussed it, it doesn’t matter to me or anyone else on here.

What I am trying to point out is what seems like a lack of empathy that you have for your husband. He waited around for 2 years while you treated him like a friend and had a boyfriend. Now that you want to try and things aren’t going as fast as you want you get frustrated with the process. The guy waited around for 2 years for you and 3 weeks after Retro you complain about all the dialouging and how much you dislike it. And yeah I know you are doing it.

Honestly, it kinda speaks volumes about him as well. Waiting around for years for a wife that rejected him and slept with another man, instead of recognizing that his wife had no concept of Catholic marriage and moving ahead with an annulment is, well, sad. It’s part and parcel of society today where men are denigrated in the media and now many act like beta lapdogs. Meanwhile, many of those who portray “alpha” qualities don’t have the moral foundation to keep themselves on the straight and narrow before marriage… especially since women are literally throwing themselves at any man who exudes masculinity since so few do so today. Just as there is a difference between being confident and arrogant, there’s a difference between being humble and being a doormat.

Look, I hope that whatever is God’s will in this situation ends up happening. But I think the husband’s behavior here of letting himself get run over like a freight train and constantly begging his wife to talk and share her feelings despite her sleeping with another guy probably doomed him… especially since it’s plainly obvious she doesn’t have a firm concept of Catholic marriage. I love my wife to death and I think spousal communication is extremely important. I’m not a 1950s totally silent father/husband type guy; I’m actually pretty emotive and sensitive.

But if my wife said she didn’t have feelings for me after just a couple years of marriage and was planning on separating and was sleeping with another dude, I’d file for a quickie divorce, move as expeditiously as possible to annulment, kick her out of the house and tell her exactly where she can go. It’s total nonsense that this guy has let himself get completely steamrolled, just like it would be nonsense for a cheating husband to make his wife come crawling back to HIM.

 

[GoBison]

Honestly, it kinda speaks volumes about him as well. Waiting around for years for a wife that rejected him and slept with another man, instead of recognizing that his wife had no concept of Catholic marriage and moving ahead with an annulment is, well, sad. It’s part and parcel of society today where men are denigrated in the media and now many act like beta lapdogs. Meanwhile, many of those who portray “alpha” qualities don’t have the moral foundation to keep themselves on the straight and narrow before marriage… especially since women are literally throwing themselves at any man who exudes masculinity since so few do so today. Just as there is a difference between being confident and arrogant, there’s a difference between being humble and being a doormat.

Look, I hope that whatever is God’s will in this situation ends up happening. But I think the husband’s behavior here of letting himself get run over like a freight train and constantly begging his wife to talk and share her feelings despite her sleeping with another guy probably doomed him… especially since it’s plainly obvious she doesn’t have a firm concept of Catholic marriage. I love my wife to death and I think spousal communication is extremely important. I’m not a 1950s totally silent father/husband type guy; I’m actually pretty emotive and sensitive.

But if my wife said she didn’t have feelings for me after just a couple years of marriage and was planning on separating and was sleeping with another dude, I’d file for a quickie divorce, move as expeditiously as possible to annulment, kick her out of the house and tell her exactly where she can go. It’s total nonsense that this guy has let himself get completely steamrolled, just like it would be nonsense for a cheating husband to make his wife come crawling back to HIM.

 

[Liberanosamalo]

Augusta, maybe you haven’t read MY posts… in this long thread and the very long one that preceded it. I am VERY familiar with Retrouvaille. I was the spouse who was trying to let one who walked out back in. I was the one trying to make a Catholic marriage work with someone who couldn’t be bothered to dialogue because he didn’t see any point to it. It was all about his feelings. If he loved me, he married me. When his feelings changed, out the door he went. And in between he used his feelings as an excuse to treat me like garbage.

So I kind of see this through the point of view of your husband. While I agree with Bucket that sometimes women treat the bully better (Like your wonderful passion with the abusive guy), I disagree that your husband has been steamrolled. Deep down he must really believe that he was married in God’s eyes and was trying to make it work.

And I have to say very very few men would be patient enough to take a woman back who had slept with another man. You may not have this chance ever again in your life. If I had to do it over again, I would have paid more attention to my xh’s lack of commitment to the Retrouvaille process and not let him move back in. Because the second time my marriage fell apart (it was never really fixed) it was harder than the first.

I did pay attention to what you wrote. Maybe you were unclear. You say you see no purpose in sharing your overly rehashed feelings (but is it new to HIM? Doesn’t matter how many therapists you talked about it with… if this is the first time HE is hearing it, it’s VITAL!) but you like to hear his feelings. Is that because you like hearing about HIM? It’s all new to you what he is saying. You’re learning about him. But you weren’t clear that it gave you any pleasure that even though you didn’t feel like dialoguing, if HE liked it, then it was worthwhile to you. That was my point.

We keep saying you need to go out and DO stuff. Quit living in your head. Live in your bodies. Talking problems to death, discussing feelings rather than feeling feelings is a recipe for a half-lived life.

Go out to dinner. Take ballroom dancing lessons. Go to movies. DO stuff!

And an affair doesn’t have to be sneaky and in dark corners of restaurants. It can be brazen and out in the open. And if you were still married in the Church, you were not free to date. Neither was he. Without an annulment, you both still have a bond that is presumed to be valid until you have a civilly divorced marriage examined by a tribunal.

I went through Retrouvaille. I tried counseling. I tried everything to fix my marriage. And when I went through the annulment process, I was able to say I had tried everything. And I had not taken my vows lightly. I didn’t date after he moved out. He did. He had a fiancee before I had even filed for the annulment. That was two fiancees ago. Because he lives his life based on his feelings of the moment. It’s been a disaster for everyone. He only wanted what he couldn’t have. Once he had it, he didn’t want it any more.

PLEASE don’t make that mistake in your life. See the goodness you have in front of you and focus on making HIM happy. It comes back to you in ways you can’t imagine when your attention is on their happiness instead of your own, or their pleasure instead of your own.

 

[kage_ar]

Thanks. How can I “find joy in sharing my mind and heart and feelings with him”?

You decide to find joy in it. You are a mature adult, not ruled by fleeting emotional highs and lows. Joy is not an emotion. Pleasure is an emotion.

We are called as Christians to rejoice - to have joy in even the worst suffering or persecution.