My faith is better than your faith

[mikew262]

If it doesn’t matter…come worship with us Catholics and receive Jesus in the Eucharist as He said in John 6.

See, we can still teach our faith while showing respect!

I have no problem with that, but that’s not going to happen.

 

[kalt]

You’re too modest. I think the Pope would like you as press secretary. Great post.

The Pope does indeed say, and speak, and act, that we are the One True Faith. However, he (and we) also say that non-Catholic Christians are loved, do possess truth (if not fullness), are our brothers and sisters, etc.

If you carefully examine the Pope’s speeches you can see indeed that he is quite firm and insistent on the TRUTH of Catholicism while acknowledging and respecting that non-Catholics can possess some of the truth in their faiths and by that are in a partial ‘union’ with the Catholic faith. “Separated brethren” points out the fundamental relationship we share as Christians all, yet acknowledges that our brethren have separated themselves from ‘all’ the truth while retaining degrees of it in their separation.

Now Benedict, God bless him, is a theologian of note AND the Vicar of Christ. It is quite natural that he both expresses himself far ‘better’ than I could, and also that his authority as Pope makes his speeches not only better canvassed than mine but better ‘interpreted’ by those of good will.

Still, though I imperfectly articulate Benedict’s words and teachings through anything from typos to unclear or less-than-stellar articulation on a ‘personal’ level, to the extent that my words are clearly teachings of the Catholic faith, they are in line with what Benedict teaches.

Your perception of Benedict’s words that he does not outright ‘claim’ Catholic supremacy may help you to feel ‘better’ about your own faith (and I am not deriding it or you in any way by stating that, good though it may be, unless it is Catholic it is just not quite complete in and of itself, though you may be a far ‘better’ Christian in your personal actions than I am). . .but it is not truly ‘accurate’ if by it you understand that Benedict finds your Church to be ‘equal’ to the Catholic Church and your faith (not your personal PRACTICE, let me reiterate, that is something else entirely) but your FAITH–be it Episcopal, Lutheran, Methodist, etc. etc. while it contains many essentials of Christian teaching is simply not as complete as the Catholic faith. Though again I hasten to add that you personally, in following your faith, may be a far better Christian in your PRACTICE than I in mine.

 

[kalt]

Again, you are speaking from a “Catholic’s” perspective. Try to step away from that for a moment and look at the bigger picture. Non-Catholic Christians do not believe/accept the fullness of Truth argument from us, and many believe just the opposite of Catholics; we’re all heretics heading to Hell. We are the ones in error and must be taught. They feel it is their job as Baptists, or whatever denomination to make us aware of the real truth.

I read a lot of postings on a Baptist board, and many of them have the same attitude as many on here. Basically, my faith is right and yours is wrong and you better get turned around.

Why can’t all Christians just accept that while all may worship God a little differently, our ultimate goal is the same; to get to Heaven? A little more mutual respect might go a long way. This actually should go for all the world religions.

I don’t understand this thinking. I’ve never heard anyone say that a fellow Xian isn’t interested in Heaven, or that their goal is something else.

Mutual respect would be nice.

I think the best way to show respect is to know what the other’s faith is before claiming that it’s wrong. At the very least, if you’re going to make claims against someone else’s religion, be willing to accept the truth of the doctrine when it’s presented to you.

There are few Catholics who claim to know all about the Baptist faith, for example, but there are oodles of non-Catholics who claim to know all about the Catholic faith. And we spend an inordinate amount of space on this forum, constantly correcting the same few mistaken claims by non-Catholics who are sure that they know the truth and we don’t know our own religion, or more insultingly, that we lie to them or are deluded by the Evil Whore of Babylon.

Really itching for some good, solid debate, based on facts, not vitriolic rumor.

 

[mikew262]

Really itching for some good, solid debate, based on facts, not vitriolic rumor.

I agree with you. However, many, on both sides of the fence, sometimes can’t even agree on what the facts are or how they should be interpreted. Since Christianity started over 2000 yrs ago, its rather hard to go back and validate anything for sure. A lot of it relies on faith, and unfortunately not everybody’s faith is identical.

Of course, emotions come into play and the overwhelming human weakness/desire to tell somebody else they are wrong.

 

[mark_a]

On another thread which was recently closed down, a lot of the discussion indirectly centered around the “My faith is better than your faith” concept. In other words, some Catholics were saying and/or insinuatiing our faith is the true faith and the whole truth and your Protestant faith is lacking and thus imperfect. Likewise some Protestants were saying the Catholic faith encouraged idol worship and spread a false gospel.

IMO, these types of attitudes do nothing but fuel the divisiveness between the various Christian denominations and Catholicism and accomplish nothing positive. Instead of trying to find fault, why not rejoice in the what they most all have in common.

• Christ is the Son of God
• Trinity
• Christ died for our sins
• The Resurrection

Most Christian groups all believe the above things. While we may worship God differently to some respect, most all agree on the basics. Does God really care that we worship differently, as long as we are sincere in that worship?

This may have been discussed enough already on the other thread, but I invite anyone’s comments. However, lets try to keep a charitable tone.

I’ve decided to try to sin less instead of trying to be God’s favorite by beating up his other children.

But when others decide they are going to “whup up” on me because I’m a Catholic, well. . . . . . .

 

[Julianna]

Again, you are speaking from a “Catholic’s” perspective. Try to step away from that for a moment and look at the bigger picture. Non-Catholic Christians do not believe/accept the fullness of Truth argument from us, and many believe just the opposite of Catholics; we’re all heretics heading to Hell. We are the ones in error and must be taught. They feel it is their job as Baptists, or whatever denomination to make us aware of the real truth.

I read a lot of postings on a Baptist board, and many of them have the same attitude as many on here. Basically, my faith is right and yours is wrong and you better get turned around.

Why can’t all Christians just accept that while all may worship God a little differently, our ultimate goal is the same; to get to Heaven? A little more mutual respect might go a long way. This actually should go for all the world religions.

Thanks mike. I read this alot. I find us all on the same journey with different paths. We are headed the same way…but take a path different (not perfect, not right) than other faiths. In all my 50 yrs., I have never had a group of Catholics come to my door and evangelize. Now I have had many LDS, JW, Baptist, Pentacostal come to my door. I have sat on the my porch with them, read the Bible with them…shared a pitcher of ice water (mostly for the LDS guys) and let them know from the git-go that I am Catholic and my family is Catholic. The JW were the toughest nut to crack, yet I did my best to be charitable. I wanted them to leave them with the thought that as a Catholic, I don’t know it all. But listening to their point of view, and while not following it, I respect it, and I am happy they have chosen the path that is right for them. I have had many friends from different faiths all my life. My mother is a Baptist…she never pushed her faith on us…my southern Baptist grandmother is a diffrerent story…she was as “holier than thou” as some the folks here on CAF. I’d dare say a mirror-image.

Thank you for this post…oh and the Incoming poster…loved it!!! You know CAF well.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Juliana, I agree with you IF your concept of ‘different paths’ means that every individual obviously follows his or her way to God ‘differently.’ We are not all in lock-step such that all of us are at the same pitch of fervor, practice the same ‘devotion’, or even are all at the same degree of sinfulness, no?

Thus, like you, I would not dream of ‘judging’ anybody in their PERSONAL following of Christ or even other/no religion and finding them ‘lacking’.

That being said, I do NOT believe in the indifferentist notion that it DOES NOT MATTER ‘how’ we look for God, that ‘any’ and ‘all’ ways are equally ‘good’, there is no ‘absolute’, there is no one ‘best’ way, etc. That IS indifferentism and it is sinful for all, no matter what their faith/no faith is. It simply is UNTRUE. Being untrue, it follows that those who BELIEVE it are believing something UNTRUE and thus, they are impeding themselves from finding truth. It is hard to wallow around in a morass of comforting, “It doesn’t matter how I seek God or even if I seek Him, I’ll just do what I THINK best and that’s good enough” and on one’s OWN to realize the RIGHT way and do it. That’s why God made sure that He gave us just ONE way (Jesus Christ) and ONE Church (with the authority to guide us)–just so that we wouldn’t make the mistake of thinking that we could somehow just ‘get there on our own’, doing all matter of things, many of which are SINS even if the people doing them are sincerely convinced the sins are either ‘trivial’, neutral, or even perfectly OK.

There is a phrase in law: Ignorantia legis non excusat: Ignorance of the law is no excuse.

God is a just (and merciful) Judge. He will extend mercy, but we live right now in a time when we have unparalleled access to His TRUTH and His Church; there is little to no excuse for most of us in not seeing and believing it. Once we have any knowledge of the Truth, rejection of the Truth becomes most truly sinful.

I would be aiding in the sins of countless people were I to sit idly by and let them go on thinking that they could ‘do as they please’, ignoring Christ and His Church, because, “well, they don’t really NEED the Church, they’ll find God in their OWN way.”

Their own way, if they DO achieve salvation, will turn out to have been the Catholic Church. . .but oh how much more difficult it will be for them to find it if they just sit back in this swamp of “INDIFFERENCE.”

 

[mark_a]

The JW were the toughest nut to crack, yet I did my best to be charitable. I wanted them to leave them with the thought that as a Catholic, I don’t know it all. But listening to their point of view, and while not following it, I respect it, and I am happy they have chosen the path that is right for them.

As I read this, it reminded me of a story I read about Pope Benedict XVI’s cousin who is a Jehovah’s Witness. He also congratulated her for choosing the path that is right for her!

Check it out!!

noticias.amigostestigos.com/pope-remembers-steffie/

 

[mikew262]

I’ve decided to try to sin less instead of trying to be God’s favorite by beating up his other children.

But when others decide they are going to “whup up” on me because I’m a Catholic, well. . . . . . .

Nothing wrong with that!

 

[mikew262]

As I read this, it reminded me of a story I read about Pope Benedict XVI’s cousin who is a Jehovah’s Witness. He also congratulated her for choosing the path that is right for her!

Check it out!!

noticias.amigostestigos.com/pope-remembers-steffie/

Wow!

This should put a bee in the bonnet of some of the more “aggressive” posters. :yup:

 

[a_priori]

Oh, dear.

INCOMING!!!

 

[a_priori]

On another thread which was recently closed down, a lot of the discussion indirectly centered around the “My faith is better than your faith” concept. In other words, some Catholics were saying and/or insinuatiing our faith is the true faith and the whole truth and your Protestant faith is lacking and thus imperfect. Likewise some Protestants were saying the Catholic faith encouraged idol worship and spread a false gospel.

IMO, these types of attitudes do nothing but fuel the divisiveness between the various Christian denominations and Catholicism and accomplish nothing positive. Instead of trying to find fault, why not rejoice in the what they most all have in common.

• Christ is the Son of God
• Trinity
• Christ died for our sins
• The Resurrection

Most Christian groups all believe the above things. While we may worship God differently to some respect, most all agree on the basics. Does God really care that we worship differently, as long as we are sincere in that worship?

This may have been discussed enough already on the other thread, but I invite anyone’s comments. However, lets try to keep a charitable tone.

In my journey of over 50 years I have been liberal protestant, evangelical, charismatic, Calvinist, Baptist, Plymouth Brethren, Arminian, Antiochian then Greek Orthodox and now finally Catholic.

I can tell you one thing. Interactions between Christians are like this 4-way stop in my town. If you approach it knowing that people will be self-centered, pushy, discourteous and will speed through without consideration for the safety and rights of others, it won’t bother you at all. But if you go into that intersection expecting everyone to play by the same rules and be polite, you will be sorely disappointed and upset.

These arguments are generally centered around things that we cannot possibly know with absolute certainty this side if Heaven.

There are few things more destructive than a person who takes out his doctrinal flamethrower and lights up the pilot light secure in the knowledge that he speaks and acts with the full backing of God and the Angels. Do well-meaning people who have a different hermeneutic deserve to be summarily incinerated? Or should one speak the truth in love as they believe it to be?

A little kindness might be nice.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

I read the article:

Sorry, but what we’re hearing is what the good woman ‘says’ our Pope told her. . .and I really can’t accept a ‘second-hand’ hearsay source as evidence that “Benedict said. . .”

I’m sure he was absolutely kind. I’m even willing to believe that he spoke of the ‘emptiness’ of many European Catholic churches with sadness.

As for the rest, I think Steffi either heard what she WANTED to hear, and presented it that way, or that the writers of this story put in just as much as they wanted to, and no more.

As far as implying that Pope Benedict ‘commended’ his cousin for 'following the path best for you". . .

POPPYCOCK.

Pope Benedict is no more an indifferentist or relativist than he is the flying spaghetti monster.

The writer of the article, at least, may have taken the remarks Steffi gave him/her as ‘proof’ of him arguing for ‘following the path best for you’. . .

I sincerely doubt though that the Pope either said or meant what he said to be taken as expressing such.

 

[LilyM]

It is the Pope that invites members of the Church of England, as well as the Orthodox Church into the Vatican to pray and discuss topics and I can promise you he does not say…WE ARE THE ONE TRUE CHURCH and your faith is incorrect.

I am not Catholic…mainly I was not raised in a Catholic home, but learned of it in my teen years and study with Priests now to determine if I will convert, but only after I have been taught all of the beliefs.

The Catholics that have affected me most positively have been ones that are knowledgable of the FAITH…not the church…and the details of beliefs that are sometimes confusing…ie praying to Saints, Eucharist, etc.

No one says that you should sing songs…but to assume that because someone believes almost everything taught in the Catholic Church, but maybe is not sure on praying to Saints and is therefore confirmed into an Angelican Church vs. the Catholic church doesn’t have the faith to get them saved is actually quite against the actions of the Roman Catholic Pope.

You should discuss and educated others of us that are not Catholic on the FAITH…but sometimes I find that many that are most aggressive on defending the Catholic faith are ones that don’t know how to share the faith…but rather yell to join the church.

Explaining the beliefs and allowing the HOLY SPIRIT to do his job…which is to actually shine the truth of God and his ways to the person is the correct way to evangelize and thankfully the Pope that we have now is a Wonderful example of how to do it correctly!

Knowledgable, Orthodox in Catholic Beliefs, Firm in his beliefs as well as in his adherance to those beliefs, sharing those ideas in love and in a manner of teaching rather than preaching…and does so quite effectively…to the point…he might have a new bunch of converts soon in some Orthodox Angelicans.

We are NOT supposed to accept people who give up simply because they believe Catholic teachings are ‘too hard’.

Jesus gave His followers many ‘hard sayings’, and many walked away from Him (see John 6) because they didnt understand those sayings.

It was the ones who stayed with Him and took Him at His word, and who kept believing His every word and trying to understand even the hard teachings, who were in the right.

If your faith has none of these sorts of ‘hard sayings’ to struggle with it isn’t Christ’s truth.

 

[po18guy]

On another thread which was recently closed down, a lot of the discussion indirectly centered around the “My faith is better than your faith” concept. In other words, some Catholics were saying and/or insinuatiing our faith is the true faith and the whole truth and your Protestant faith is lacking and thus imperfect. Likewise some Protestants were saying the Catholic faith encouraged idol worship and spread a false gospel.

IMO, these types of attitudes do nothing but fuel the divisiveness between the various Christian denominations and Catholicism and accomplish nothing positive. Instead of trying to find fault, why not rejoice in the what they most all have in common.

• Christ is the Son of God
• Trinity
• Christ died for our sins
• The Resurrection

Most Christian groups all believe the above things. While we may worship God differently to some respect, most all agree on the basics. Does God really care that we worship differently, as long as we are sincere in that worship?

This may have been discussed enough already on the other thread, but I invite anyone’s comments. However, lets try to keep a charitable tone.

We must avoid relativism! All faiths are not equal. One is the fulness and the others are either partial or flat wrong. We have a responsibility before God to lead to the fulness of truth. I will not place Catholicism on equal footing with any other “faith”. It is the One revealed by God. All human hearts are free to accept it or reject it.

Take the entire chapter of John 6. Jesus said it for a reason. He stressed it. He reiterated it. He commanded it. John recorded it for a reason. It has been practiced uninterrupted almost 2,000 years, for a reason. It is the truth, which sets us free.

Christ’s peace.

 

[SIA]

On another thread which was recently closed down, a lot of the discussion indirectly centered around the “My faith is better than your faith” concept. In other words, some Catholics were saying and/or insinuatiing our faith is the true faith and the whole truth and your Protestant faith is lacking and thus imperfect. Likewise some Protestants were saying the Catholic faith encouraged idol worship and spread a false gospel.

IMO, these types of attitudes do nothing but fuel the divisiveness between the various Christian denominations and Catholicism and accomplish nothing positive. Instead of trying to find fault, why not rejoice in the what they most all have in common.

• Christ is the Son of God
• Trinity
• Christ died for our sins
• The Resurrection

Most Christian groups all believe the above things. While we may worship God differently to some respect, most all agree on the basics. Does God really care that we worship differently, as long as we are sincere in that worship?

This may have been discussed enough already on the other thread, but I invite anyone’s comments. However, lets try to keep a charitable tone.

We have alot more in common than that. The Real Presence, The Communion of Saints, very similar worship styles, the sign of the cross. The list goes on. Anglicans and Catholics are very similar in worship and beliefs. Not to mention the vestments all look the same too. We even have the same lectionary readings on Sunday morning!

 

[mikew262]

All faiths are not equal.

This may be true, but who says Catholicism necessarily has it right? Catholics have faith that it is, but so do Baptists, Methodists, etc. with their brand of worship. Nobody knows for sure. One just has to follow where they feel the Holy Spirit leading them. Many ex-Catholics have said they felt dead spiritually while a member of the CC, but found God in another… The same has been said in reverse by ex-Protestants who converted to the CC. Who is to say Christ doesn’t reach out to people in different ways?

 

[SIA]

This may be true, but who says Catholicism necessarily has it right? Catholics have faith that it is, but so do Baptists, Methodists, etc. with their brand of worship. Nobody knows for sure. One just has to follow where they feel the Holy Spirit leading them. Many ex-Catholics have said they felt dead spiritually while a member of the CC, but found God in another… The same has been said in reverse by ex-Protestants who converted to the CC. Who is to say Christ doesn’t reach out to people in different ways?

Absolutely

 

[mikew262]

I read the article:

Sorry, but what we’re hearing is what the good woman ‘says’ our Pope told her. . .and I really can’t accept a ‘second-hand’ hearsay source as evidence that “Benedict said. . .”

I’m sure he was absolutely kind. I’m even willing to believe that he spoke of the ‘emptiness’ of many European Catholic churches with sadness.

As for the rest, I think Steffi either heard what she WANTED to hear, and presented it that way, or that the writers of this story put in just as much as they wanted to, and no more.

As far as implying that Pope Benedict ‘commended’ his cousin for 'following the path best for you". . .

POPPYCOCK.

Pope Benedict is no more an indifferentist or relativist than he is the flying spaghetti monster.

The writer of the article, at least, may have taken the remarks Steffi gave him/her as ‘proof’ of him arguing for ‘following the path best for you’. . .

I sincerely doubt though that the Pope either said or meant what he said to be taken as expressing such.

Ha! I knew it wouldn’t take long for the howling to begin on that one.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

who says Catholicism necessarily has it right

The Holy Spirit.

Good enough for me.