Which is my point – the cited paragraphs discuss adultry, not pornography or masturbation, and the allowed separation is not the same thing as living together and withholding sex.
Question: With your repeated advice to the OP to apply “love and prayer” as the means to positive outcome, does there ever come a time in your play book when enough is enough? And if so, how long should she endure abuse before accepting that he will not change his ways? And then what type of “love and prayer” would you prescribe to her then? If you cannot answer these contingency questions, your advice comes across as nothing more than insensistive and naive to the offended marriage partner.
felra:
Even if it is true I would NOT use these words or tone. Part of the problem is the feeling of conflict and belittlement. No one wants to be told they are some sort of deviant, especially from a spouse. The husband is already on the defensive here, and adding any more fuel to the fire will only make things worse.
There was a loving relationship that was lost months ago in all the turmoil. Yes, it was brought on by actions of the spouse, but it is further aggravated by the attitude of the wife. She may be 1000% right but how she presents her case makes all the difference in the world.
IF she comes on strong like I’m right and you’re wrong, she will only make matters worse. So far it has been you are a serious sinner and I won’t have sex with you until you straighten up. We already know how that has turned out.
It’s time to be the loving spouse who supports her husband in trying to get over this weakness. The message needs to say, I love you no matter what, and I will help you get over this problem. Later on, you want to let him know that you fell cheated when he engages in these things and please try to stop because it affects your marriage negatively.
The condemnation has to stop, It simply is not helping. Separation at this point may not be help either and it may even be the straw that breaks the camels back. He just may decide that the marriage is not worth all the hassle and grief that he is getting. It takes two to make a marriage work but it only takes one to totally destroy it.
Part of the problem may be that the husband does not feel that committed to the marriage yet. He has only been married a few months and he is gettiing all this grief from his wife about his habits and now she wants part of his finances. PLUS she is withholding sex !!! He is probably wondering, why in the world did he even get married in the first place.
IF you separate now, he may think, well that was a big waste of time, being single is whole lot less stressful.
Marriage is tough especially the first year, BUT it should not be so chaotic from the very first month. IF you want the marriage to work there has to be a change in attitude on BOTH sides. And unfortunately it probably has to start with YOU, because it very likely will not begin with him.
The good news is he WILL change his attitude if you really start being a lot nicer to him. He won’t change completely overnight, but the more he becomes committed to you the easier it will be for him to change and chances are he won’t even notice changing.
So far you have each been shouting at each other, it is long past time to speak with kindness and love and patience. It will be hard to give up all the hurt and pain that has gone before, but you must, to start things over on a better footing. Talk calmly, and you can’t talk calmly don’t say anything at all.
Good luck and I’ll pray for you.
Let me check my marriage vows and see where it says “enough is enough.” Hmmmm . . . can’t find it. All I can find is something that says “until death do you part.”
Can. 1153 ß1 clearly references things other than adultery as reasons to separate. It is baffling as to why you keep skipping over that section when claiming the citation only speaks about adultery. If you believe that maintaining an addiction to porn and self-abuse combined with withholding financial support, emotional abuse, etc is not sufficient to make " the common life unduly difficult", what would? I’m looking for reasons other than physical violence, as 1153 speaks to dangers to the “soul or body”, and what he is doing is abusive.
Thanks for answering–“until death do you part.” I just wanted to clarify/qualify your advice to this OP.
She herself says he doesn’t hit her. He doesn’t ask her to participate in acts that would endanger her soul.
Nowhere do the sited paragraphs condone withholding sex.
So far it appears that very little love has been applied. At least once would be a fair start. IF real efforts at love and reconcilliation don’t work, I would say 6 months to a year would be plenty of time. And that is only if no real progress has been made. It is easy to say no progress has been made if one or the other spouse gets frustrated and gives up.
Since there is no danger in delay in this case, a decree of the local Ordinary is required to invoke the provisions of canon 1153 §1.
I think the question is, what did you take vows to do? I don’t see anything in the marriage vows that say “Unless you decide it isn’t worth it.”
So you are saying that she should keep using the same tactics ??? :banghead: :banghead:
I tend to agree that until death do you part is about the right amount of time to make things work .
To repeat my prior question: If you believe that maintaining an addiction to porn and self-abuse combined with withholding financial support, emotional abuse, etc is not sufficient to make “the common life unduly difficult”, what would? Note the sentence structure of that paragraph, it is connected with "or"s, not "and"s.
Again, the entire passage form canon law is worded in a way where the conjugal relationship is presumed to be legitimately suspended during the separation (specifically 1152ß3, 1153ß2 and 1155).
I think that imposong a deadline for substantial, verifiable change would send the message of the seriousness and sacramental dignity of the marital vows exchanged, and build incentive for change. Goals are only as good as the timetables attached to them for assessing progress and eventual achievement. Otherwise, “until death do you part” may become just the meal ticket that this OP’s hubby is banking on to perpetuate in his pathological, disrespectful and lewd ways, and all the time blaming the offended partner.
Where is the danger to body or soul?
Just as withholding sex is not a legitimate action on her part. Nor is there any danger – other than through the application of “lawyer logic.”
I suggest the emotional abuse in this marriage is mutual. And it is a mistake to equate the mind to the soul.
I don’t see a shred of evidence that there is real danger to body or soul from her posts.
Which is neither here nor there – the canon law does not say one partner can withhold sex as a weapon or tool.
Bingo.
As moderate as throwing gasoline on a fire or waving a red flag at a bull.
Until one tries to correct one’s actions, there is no danger of “over-correcting.”
Can you give me a quote where I “advocated total surrender?”
NO! Bickering and fighting are not the way to do this at all. I’m saying 2 very important things: that she has to pray and ask God to let her know how she should handle this(and then do it!) and that her attitude can’t be “he’ll change if I do this” She can’t make him change. She can only change herself. Her attitude needs to be that she will do whatever God tells her to do with a loving spirit and attitude, but that ultimately, if he does not respond to that, it is his problem!