My first battering in the apologetics arena

[Ag_not]

One question - you were nice to him right?

Also, remember humility

I was VERY nice too him I’m am a very soft spoken person in real life so I come across as a very quiet and shy person. I discovered he was a bit of a touchy guy - he kept touching my hands and covering my hands with his - I was soooo nice to him I didn’t stab his hand with my hair pin once Though I was tempted.

There was no sense that I had got one up on the guy.

I said a prayer to the Holy Spirit at the beginning, and at the end. I KNOW I know nothing, and wouldnt even been here if it wasnt for you guys.

I just wanted him to know and understand why catholics DONT worship statues nor partake in idolatry. Thanks to all you guys here, with your pointers advice and help, I put up a fight

I am nothing without the Spirit, Jesus and you guys

 

[Church_Militant]

I was VERY nice too him I’m am a very soft spoken person in real life so I come across as a very quiet and shy person. I discovered he was a bit of a touchy guy - he kept touching my hands and covering my hands with his - I was soooo nice to him I didn’t stab his hand with my hair pin once Though I was tempted.

Y’know, this kinda sends up a red flag to me. Most honest “witnesses” won’t do this as it actually comes across as him hitting on you and that sure ain’t right.

Just an observation Ag_. Maybe keep that in mind for future interactions.

You might also point out that he’s obviously never attended Mass because he talks like it’s all prayer before statues and such and we all know that ain’t so either, now don’t we?

I think you did well and you were wise to seek the help of the Holy Spirit like you do since Our Lord gave us the promise, " for I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which none of your adversaries will be able to withstand or contradict" (Luke 21:15)

I also think you exemplified 1st Peter 3:15.

 

[mariyka]

Y’know, this kinda sends up a red flag to me. Most honest “witnesses” won’t do this as it actually comes across as him hitting on you and that sure ain’t right.

Just an observation Ag_. Maybe keep that in mind for future interactions.

Ag_not,
My take on him is that he is attracted to you, but this "being Catholic " has to be nipped in the bud before he can move ahead with really showing it. The fact that you are in the act of converting must be very frustrating to him.

PS You were magnificent, in your discussion and in the way you wrote it. Are you a writer? I think you have talent.

 

[mercygate]

I was VERY nice too him I’m am a very soft spoken person in real life so I come across as a very quiet and shy person. I discovered he was a bit of a touchy guy - he kept touching my hands and covering my hands with his - I was soooo nice to him I didn’t stab his hand with my hair pin once Though I was tempted.

There was no sense that I had got one up on the guy.

I said a prayer to the Holy Spirit at the beginning, and at the end. I KNOW I know nothing, and wouldnt even been here if it wasnt for you guys.

I just wanted him to know and understand why catholics DONT worship statues nor partake in idolatry. Thanks to all you guys here, with your pointers advice and help, I put up a fight

I am nothing without the Spirit, Jesus and you guys

You have encountered a common phenomenon:

“I know the Bible and Catholics don’t (no matter what you say). So no matter what you say, YOU WORSHIP STATUES.”

No matter what you say or what documentation you provide to the contrary, YOU WORSHIP STATUES.

Sigh. All you can do is what you did: counter the madness with reason and peace. You likely will have no effect AT THIS TIME but you never know what the Holy Spirit will do with your effort down the line.

 

[MaryJohnZ]

Well today, I’m working with a guy. He invites me to his Church. Seems like one of those little independent reformed baptist uniterian free episscopalian affairs - or something like that. I tell him Im grateful for the invite but I attend a catholic church and Im going to be received hopefully at easter.

He rolls his eyes. I say, dont tell me, WOB and all that - I dont want to hear it. He’s nice and says no, I have no problem with catholics. I know some nice ones. My only issue is Mary and Idol worship and Rosaries.

So I explain my experiences, and he doesnt dismiss them. Like I said. He’s nice.

I then try to explain I dont worship statues. I dont honor Mary above God. I dont repeat pagan babbling phrases in the Rosary.

And I felt terrible. Empty. Everything he countered with made far more sense than anything I said. He was simple and polite. Asked nice easy questions. Example - Whats the point of the statues at all. I accept you dont worship them. I accept they direct your mind to God. But whats the point of them at all. You believe in transsubstanciation - so isnt just worshipping God alone enough. Why the candles in front of a statue of a saint. ???

And he had more. Tons more. And every answer I gave just seemed laughable even to my own ears. He knew his Bible. Every single phrase and statement he came out with, he backed it up with Old and new testament scripture. And it all made perfect sense. And everything I recountrered with, just sounded laughable.

But he was kind, and didnt laugh. And respected the fact I was going to join the catholic church.

But I was left feeling empty, and stupid, and dumb, and disillusioned.

Im no apologist that’s for sure - but the most uncomfortable thing was I was left feeling so inadequate.

Oh well. Every day cant be a good day I guess.

---

In term of not worshipping stautes and not honoring Mary I wince!!!

As far as sacred art and devotionals go…human beings are sensory beings. We were created that way by God. he gave us eyes for visual images, ears for Sacred music, smell for incense,
touch to feel things. A woman was healed by Christ when she touched the hem of His garment. She didn’t touch HIM directly, she touched something belonging to Him. mary and staues , blessed devotionals BELONG to God and when we are near them, touch them, practice them we can be healed too…just like that woman, because our faith is in the owner of those people (saints like mary) and objects which are His property. the Old testament runs over with incidents showing the power of a person or things which is God’s property. mary certainly belonged to Him more than any other person and to reject her is in all truth a rejection of Christ to one degree or another according to a person’s awareness of who Mary is in Christ.

That is not a formally trained apologetic answer but I stand by it with great conviction.

In Christ, maryJohnZ

 

[cpete]

I suggest you read “Reasons to Believe” by Scott Hahn. The subtitle of the book is: “How to Understand, Explain and Defend the Catholic Faith”. I think that says it all.
You were unable to answer all the questions simply because you were unprepared. Sounds like your friend was prepared and knew exactly how to tackle you. The fact that he didn’t put you down is perhaps attributable to his niceness or to the fact that he knows that to laugh at your beliefs would jeopardize his chances of “saving” you. Don’t be dismayed. You are on the right road spiritually, you just need to arm yourself for the battle. This book will definitely help you do that.
Good luck!
cpete

 

[mo3]

But he was kind, and didnt laugh. And respected the fact I was going to join the catholic church.

But I was left feeling empty, and stupid, and dumb, and disillusioned.

Im no apologist that’s for sure - but the most uncomfortable thing was I was left feeling so inadequate.

Oh well. Every day cant be a good day I guess.

This is a wonderful opportunity for you to dialogue with someone who is kind and respectful. I pray you will keep it on a respectful level. If he feels you are attacking him and his beliefs, you will lose a friend and this opportunity.

Don’t feel bad. I was in your same situation several years ago. I am a cradle Catholic and I would not have responded with Biblical answers back then either. I would love to have a person like your friend now so I could defend the faith and present the Biblical Catholic faith.

There is nothing wrong in saying “I don’t have the Bible memorized” but I can get back with you.

A good way to dialogue is to say “I will try to answer your question if you will answer one of my questions?” This way you establish a ground rule that he cannot just rattle of questions without answering a question.

Here is a question you could consider asking him: Since the Bible says in 1 Cor 14:34 that women are not permitted to speak in church, what is your Biblical answer that allows women to speak in church?

Your supporting answer: There is no place in the Bible that overturns 1 Cor 14:34 and 1 Tim 2:11. If a person believes that all theological answers are Biblical, then they must not allow women to speak in church. If his church allows women to speak in church, then it is not a church that follows the Bible.

However, the practice of not allowing women to speak in church is a “discipline” established by the church and not by the Bible. The church has the authority to change disciplines that are listed in the Bible. Our Church, the Catholic Church has the authority, given to it by Jesus Christ (via Mat 16:17-18) to establish disciplines.

Supporting verses:
1 Cor 14: 34 women should keep silent in the churches, for they are not allowed to speak, but should be subordinate, as even the law says. 35 But if they want to learn anything, they should ask their husbands at home. For it is improper for a woman to speak in the church.

1 Tim 2:11 - A woman must receive instruction silently and under complete control. 12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man. 4 She must be quiet.

God bless the Biblical Catholic Church!

 

[mercygate]

This is a wonderful opportunity for you to dialogue with someone who is kind and respectful. I pray you will keep it on a respectful level. If he feels you are attacking him and his beliefs, you will lose a friend and this opportunity.

Don’t feel bad. I was in your same situation several years ago. I am a cradle Catholic and I would not have responded with Biblical answers back then either. I would love to have a person like your friend now so I could defend the faith and present the Biblical Catholic faith.

There is nothing wrong in saying “I don’t have the Bible memorized” but I can get back with you.

A good way to dialogue is to say “I will try to answer your question if you will answer one of my questions?” This way you establish a ground rule that he cannot just rattle of questions without answering a question.

Here is a question you could consider asking him: Since the Bible says in 1 Cor 14:34 that women are not permitted to speak in church, what is your Biblical answer that allows women to speak in church?

Your supporting answer: There is no place in the Bible that overturns 1 Cor 14:34 and 1 Tim 2:11. If a person believes that all theological answers are Biblical, then they must not allow women to speak in church. If his church allows women to speak in church, then it is not a church that follows the Bible.

However, the practice of not allowing women to speak in church is a “discipline” established by the church and not by the Bible. The church has the authority to change disciplines that are listed in the Bible. Our Church, the Catholic Church has the authority, given to it by Jesus Christ (via Mat 16:17-18) to establish disciplines.

Supporting verses:
1 Cor 14: 34 women should keep silent in the churches, for they are not allowed to speak, but should be subordinate, as even the law says. 35 But if they want to learn anything, they should ask their husbands at home. For it is improper for a woman to speak in the church.

1 Tim 2:11 - A woman must receive instruction silently and under complete control. 12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man. 4 She must be quiet.

God bless the Biblical Catholic Church!

While “Bible” Christians “must” receive biblical answers, I believe it is a great mistake to play the game entirely by their rules. We need to set them up from the beginning to understand that tradition and reason are legitimate contributors to both teaching and practice. We need to let them know that Catholic practice does not contradict Scripture but is not limited to Scripture for authentication. We can even cite a scripture to show this: The church . . . is the pillar and ground of truth.

 

[mo3]

While “Bible” Christians “must” receive biblical answers, I believe it is a great mistake to play the game entirely by their rules. We need to set them up from the beginning to understand that tradition and reason are legitimate contributors to both teaching and practice. We need to let them know that Catholic practice does not contradict Scripture but is not limited to Scripture for authentication. We can even cite a scripture to show this: The church . . . is the pillar and ground of truth.

I agree. My suggestions to Ag_Not pretty much followed your advice. That is why I suggested to ask him a question that could not be answered by the Bible.
God Bless.

 

[Dirk_Skene]

Hi ole’ friend. I see where you started this thread last Tuesday. I’m just not getting around to looking at posts carefully. This co-worker probably means well, he’s just innocently ignorant. His pastor has probably lied to him about the True Christian Faith & he is not going to accept that someone like that would lie.

Sounds like you handled it well. Better than I would have. Hang in there. You are going to meet a lot like him.

 

[warpspeedpetey]

Well today, I’m working with a guy. He invites me to his Church. Seems like one of those little independent reformed baptist uniterian free episscopalian affairs - or something like that. I tell him Im grateful for the invite but I attend a catholic church and Im going to be received hopefully at easter.

He rolls his eyes. I say, dont tell me, WOB and all that - I dont want to hear it. He’s nice and says no, I have no problem with catholics. I know some nice ones. My only issue is Mary and Idol worship and Rosaries.

So I explain my experiences, and he doesnt dismiss them. Like I said. He’s nice.

I then try to explain I dont worship statues. I dont honor Mary above God. I dont repeat pagan babbling phrases in the Rosary.

And I felt terrible. Empty. Everything he countered with made far more sense than anything I said. He was simple and polite. Asked nice easy questions. Example - Whats the point of the statues at all. I accept you dont worship them. I accept they direct your mind to God. But whats the point of them at all. You believe in transsubstanciation - so isnt just worshipping God alone enough. Why the candles in front of a statue of a saint. ???

And he had more. Tons more. And every answer I gave just seemed laughable even to my own ears. He knew his Bible. Every single phrase and statement he came out with, he backed it up with Old and new testament scripture. And it all made perfect sense. And everything I recountrered with, just sounded laughable.

But he was kind, and didnt laugh. And respected the fact I was going to join the catholic church.

But I was left feeling empty, and stupid, and dumb, and disillusioned.

Im no apologist that’s for sure - but the most uncomfortable thing was I was left feeling so inadequate.

Oh well. Every day cant be a good day I guess.

dont feel bad, i see these all the time, they run when confronted with Scripture themselves, but it does mean that you have work to do. i suggest that you google scott hahn, and Catholic apologetics in general, any points he made that you can remember, look them up.

i would be happy to help with specific issues, you may send me a private message and i will help you with the legwork, but i need to know specifics, and if possible his denomination.

i will show you how to make a preacher cry, so to speak, its almost my favorite hboby!

 

[Sea_Bass]

Howdy ag_NOT,

I am brand new to this site, and recently became interested in my faith once again after dating an a-C Baptist girl. I began learning the best ways to defend the Church by engaging in on another religion forum. I also joined this forum, which is awesome. I’ve started reading books and websites to start trying to teach people about the Church.

Anyway, to make this relevant to the topic at hand, he is taking the typical a-C angle of “nitpicking.” My ex was the exact same way – “Why do y’all worship statues and Mary? Why do y’all do Baptism on infants? Etc.” I was able to explain it fully through the doctrine of the Church, but I couldn’t back it up with Scripture. The sad thing was is that she could not defend her faith, and she knew it. But instead of partaking on a journey of faith (not necessarily conversion), she chose to end it with me. Sometimes people just don’t have the faith that’s deep enough to understand the Church and to go against what they’ve been raised with. Next time you talk to him about this, and he brings up the little details, quickly defend them, but start asking questions to him to see if he truly knows the “core” beliefs of the Church. My guess is that he doesn’t, but has been taught to hate the Church, as a lot of non-Catholics are raised. It sounds like to me that he is not interested in learning about it because he already thinks he knows it. It also sounds like he is hitting on you, so if you are not interested in him, watch yourself. And just remember, that even if you can’t defend it against a slick talking Protestant, does not impact your faith at all. You know what you believe in (from what you’ve posted), and that’s the important thing. Also, pray for the Holy Spirit to guide you because I know that He’s guided me in times where I’ve been called to defend or teach about the Church.

Hope this helps!

Gig ‘em and God Bless,

Sea Bass

 

[Cleo_K]

• teachccd wrote: "Why do you call priests “Father”? "*

Why do we?

 

[mo3]

• teachccd wrote: "Why do you call priests “Father”? "*

Why do we?

Priests are our spiritual fathers here on earth. There is nothing wrong with calling them our father. St. Paul used the term many times:

Acts 7:2 And he replied, My brothers and fathers, listen.

Acts 22:1 My brothers and fathers, listen to what I am about to say to you in my defense.

1 Cor 4:15 Even if you should have countless guides to Christ, yet you do not have many fathers, for I became your father in Christ Jesus through the gospel.

Rom 4:16-17 For this reason, it depends on faith, so that it may be a gift, and the promise may be guaranteed to all his descendants, not to those who only adhere to the law but to those who follow the faith of Abraham, who is the father of all of us.

 

[Shannon9791]

I was VERY nice too him I’m am a very soft spoken person in real life so I come across as a very quiet and shy person. I discovered he was a bit of a touchy guy - he kept touching my hands and covering my hands with his - I was soooo nice to him I didn’t stab his hand with my hair pin once Though I was tempted.

There was no sense that I had got one up on the guy.

I said a prayer to the Holy Spirit at the beginning, and at the end. I KNOW I know nothing, and wouldnt even been here if it wasnt for you guys.

I just wanted him to know and understand why catholics DONT worship statues nor partake in idolatry. Thanks to all you guys here, with your pointers advice and help, I put up a fight

I am nothing without the Spirit, Jesus and you guys

Hey, super job in laying the Biblical smack down on this dude. His hand touching and that type of thing leads me to think it’s either one of two things:
1). He’s into you and the Catholic thing bugs him out.
2). He’s trying to silence you.
Non-verbal communication tells us that touch can be used to establish a dominance over another person. His constant touching you could be a way of him trying to establish a “dominant” position in the conversation, which he was obviously getting his butt handed to him. Way to go in disregarding that behavior, as in reacting to it would have given him the “upper hand” and thrown you off your game. As we know, if you ignore behavior like this, it often goes away.
Again, great job in handling this dork. As a former member of a very good college debate team, I know that nothing is more satisfying than mentally beating the daylights out of someone. I’m very glad you’re on our team and will be happy for you come Easter. My prayers for your continued succes are with you. :extrahappy:

 

[mercygate]

Hey, super job in laying the Biblical smack down on this dude. His hand touching and that type of thing leads me to think it’s either one of two things:
1). He’s into you and the Catholic thing bugs him out.
2). He’s trying to silence you.
Non-verbal communication tells us that touch can be used to establish a dominance over another person. His constant touching you could be a way of him trying to establish a “dominant” position in the conversation, which he was obviously getting his butt handed to him.

Get ready to have your head handed to you on a platter for this statement. Even though you are correct, it’s a hot button around here.

Way to go in disregarding that behavior, as in reacting to it would have given him the “upper hand” and thrown you off your game. As we know, if you ignore behavior like this, it often goes away.
Again, great job in handling this dork. As a former member of a very good college debate team, I know that nothing is more satisfying than mentally beating the daylights out of someone. I’m very glad you’re on our team and will be happy for you come Easter. My prayers for your continued succes are with you. :extrahappy:

While this satisfaction is, unfortunately all to real, when we go in for the kill, we’re on the wrong page. (BTDT, got the t-shirt.)

I am concerned that Ag_not, who is new to Christianity and new to Catholicism will be spiritually derailed by engaging in apologetics.

Now, sometimes, as in her case, we have little choice. The gauntlet is thrown – not just at our feet but in our face. And there we are: FORCED to don the armour of defense.

 

[Cleo_K]

you know what else you should bring up?

How about starting with,

"Let’s be honest about your motives. I can see that you’re trying to pick apart the tenets of my faith. Must we pretend that this is a discussion?

If someone responded to a question of mine like that I would not only have to fight the urge to sock him/her … i would probably also think all Catholics are nasty, mean-spirited and unable to defend their faith without attacking with a GUESS at motives for asking.

Frankly, it may be better to remember God is love… and even if one thinks… THINKS they know the motives behind questions about the faith… answer those questions as Jesus would.

 

[Shannon9791]

Get ready to have your head handed to you on a platter for this statement. Even though you are correct, it’s a hot button around here.

While this satisfaction is, unfortunately all to real, when we go in for the kill, we’re on the wrong page. (BTDT, got the t-shirt.)

I am concerned that Ag_not, who is new to Christianity and new to Catholicism will be spiritually derailed by engaging in apologetics.

Now, sometimes, as in her case, we have little choice. The gauntlet is thrown – not just at our feet but in our face. And there we are: FORCED to don the armour of defense.

I don’t see how stating that touch can be used to attempt to establish dominance is a hot button issue. And I do see your point about not getting too involved in apologetics in Ag’s early stages, but as we all have said, “She done good” and I was merely letting her know that I share the warm and fuzzies we all feel for her “victory.” I also wanted to let her know that we ARE glad to have her on our team, as Catholics, it should make us all proud to see someone willing to step up to the plate, and put in the time necessary to debunk the silliness that is often thrown around.

 

[mercygate]

I don’t see how stating that touch can be used to attempt to establish dominance is a hot button issue. And I do see your point about not getting too involved in apologetics in Ag’s early stages, but as we all have said, “She done good” and I was merely letting her know that I share the warm and fuzzies we all feel for her “victory.” I also wanted to let her know that we ARE glad to have her on our team, as Catholics, it should make us all proud to see someone willing to step up to the plate, and put in the time necessary to debunk the silliness that is often thrown around.

Maybe the fire won’t catch on this thread, but I once mentioned that touching is a dominance behavior that operates only from the top down, and a LOT of people (especially Latins, whose culture is much more touchy-feely than that of northern Europe) took me to the woodshed and would NOT have mercy!

Yes: we ARE glad Ag-not is on our team and she DID do a fantastic job!

 

[AlwaysAsking]

If someone responded to a question of mine like that I would not only have to fight the urge to sock him/her … i would probably also think all Catholics are nasty, mean-spirited and unable to defend their faith without attacking with a GUESS at motives for asking.

Hi, Cleo

That statement was suggested by a bible christian [me] who has a pretty good idea what’s going on here. If I really believed Ag_Not would quote me I wouldn’t have said it!, but it was a way to point out that she doesn’t have to take this guy completely at face value. I did recommend, further along, that a more constructive interaction (as opposed to a pretty futile disagreement) could be had by focusing on what the two christians had in common.

On the other hand, as I’ve said, I can’t stand Christians picking on each other and wearing phony smiles doesn’t make it better. This guy should be supporting a new Christian instead of trying to attack her beliefs. That’s a meanie in my book.