My first encounter with a Jehovah's witness

[Flame4]

I don’t know if this is in the right palce, but anyways…

I had my first encounter with a Jehovah’s witness who attempted to covert me I suppose. I was sitting down and she was just standing there so I moved over, since she was elderly. She started talking about the Bible and stuff and I guessed her religion.

She talked about how we must call God by the right name: Jehovah.

My rebutal: Names are symbols. If we say the word “house”, the word house is not really a house. Its a symbol for a real house. Because we are human and we are limited, we need symbols and names to explain higher meanings. That is why we have so many symbols- things that are tangible for us- in the Church, so we can more easily connect with God.

On the other hand, God is unlimited. The names we come up with are simply for us to have something to call him. It doesn’t mean he has a name. So there is no proper “name” for him. To me, using “God” shows how he is unlimited.

Anyways, thats what I said, more or less. Thats what came to my head. At first I was annoyed with her, but I was actually quite glad by the end. I enjoy discussing religion with other people. It helps **me ** learn more. I just thought I would share.

 

[Redratfish]

Glad to see that you learned from the experience, and you had the courage to respond :clapping:

I enjoy discussing religion with other people. It helps **me ** learn more. I just thought I would share.

Be careful, people are going to tell you that you shouldn’t learn this way. I have no problem with it, as I do the same.

 

[Flame4]

Glad to see that you learned from the experience, and you had the courage to respond :clapping:

Be careful, people are going to tell you that you shouldn’t learn this way. I have no problem with it, as I do the same.

Yes, I think people will caution me. I think that if you are familiar with the subject and fairly strong in your faith it can be helpful. If you aren’t familiar with the subject, it is best to not do it this way, b/c you can end up confused and wonder if the Church IS right.

I mean, the woman I taked to was formally a Catholic actually. So perhaps she wasn’t familiar with Church teachings and believed what she was told when she was coverted. I told her to consider coming back to the Church. I don’t know if she will, but I said it anyways.

God Bless

 

[Ponyguy]

“Jousting with windmills…”
When it becomes obvious in a religious argument that no progress is going to be made, I usually just end their rantings with a firm: “Okay, I won’t continue to bury you with my rebuttals if you simply quit trying to force your views upon me.” “Now, let’s talk about MASCAR or the White Sox…”

A somewhat comical moment: A woman I know (quite an attractive woman, at that; she’s won a number of beauty-oriented competitions) had been repeatedly bothered by both Mormon and Jehovah’s Witness missionaries coming to her door. She even resorted to placing a note on the door informing potential solicitors away. One quiet afternoon, she was nursing her infant and she noticed two men with white shirts, black pants, neckties and clipboards (in Florida’s summer, no less!) heading up her sidewalk toward her door. They knocked. And rang the door-bell. And knocked again. Frustrated to no end, Becky placed her baby in the bassinet, and proceeded to answer the door completely topless, and lambasted the two would-be missionaries with a tongue-lashing they never will forget. She then slammed the door and returned to quietly feeding her little one. No missionaries have ever returned…

 

[e46m3]

“Jousting with windmills…”
When it becomes obvious in a religious argument that no progress is going to be made, I usually just end their rantings with a firm: “Okay, I won’t continue to bury you with my rebuttals if you simply quit trying to force your views upon me.” “Now, let’s talk about MASCAR or the White Sox…”

A somewhat comical moment: A woman I know (quite an attractive woman, at that; she’s won a number of beauty-oriented competitions) had been repeatedly bothered by both Mormon and Jehovah’s Witness missionaries coming to her door. She even resorted to placing a note on the door informing potential solicitors away. One quiet afternoon, she was nursing her infant and she noticed two men with white shirts, black pants, neckties and clipboards (in Florida’s summer, no less!) heading up her sidewalk toward her door. They knocked. And rang the door-bell. And knocked again. Frustrated to no end, Becky placed her baby in the bassinet, and proceeded to answer the door completely topless, and lambasted the two would-be missionaries with a tongue-lashing they never will forget. She then slammed the door and returned to quietly feeding her little one. No missionaries have ever returned…

That is one of the funniest things I have ever heard. Imagine the looks on their faces.

 

[e46m3]

I don’t know if this is in the right palce, but anyways…

I had my first encounter with a Jehovah’s witness who attempted to covert me I suppose. I was sitting down and she was just standing there so I moved over, since she was elderly. She started talking about the Bible and stuff and I guessed her religion.

She talked about how we must call God by the right name: Jehovah.

My rebutal: Names are symbols. If we say the word “house”, the word house is not really a house. Its a symbol for a real house. Because we are human and we are limited, we need symbols and names to explain higher meanings. That is why we have so many symbols- things that are tangible for us- in the Church, so we can more easily connect with God.

On the other hand, God is unlimited. The names we come up with are simply for us to have something to call him. It doesn’t mean he has a name. So there is no proper “name” for him. To me, using “God” shows how he is unlimited.

Anyways, thats what I said, more or less. Thats what came to my head. At first I was annoyed with her, but I was actually quite glad by the end. I enjoy discussing religion with other people. It helps **me ** learn more. I just thought I would share.

JW’s really don’t like catholics. Unfortunatly, Catholics are a main target for mormons and JW’s. When the Jay-Dubs(as I like to call them)come to my house, I simply tell them that they have a religion based on a translation of the bible that has been proven to be highly inaccurate.

When the mormons come, I tell them I’m a catholic and I will never be mormon. I explain it to them and they usually respectfully leave. Those Jay-Dubs on the other hand just dish out falsly translated bible verses at you untill you slam the door in their face.

 

[Georgia]

If you hope to move the JW people toward Christianity, take the time to study their beliefs, though not from their publications until you truly understand the errors. Catholic Answers has some pretty good books that will arm you with the knowledge that you need.

The JWs have been victimized by teachers of simple platitudes, thin research, and zero qualifications. I always talk to them and let them know I feel they are victims and that I will be praying for them. Because I have studied their teachings, as they are for the moment, I always take their literature under the understanding that I will contribute nothing. I use it for further study, comparing it with what the Church teaches and I always take the time to research the cited verses. Seeing how loose the links are from a real Bible to JW teaching always reinforces my belief that their faith is poorly placed.

Slamming the door on the JWs is what they expect. They have been taught that it is a sign that they “are in the truth” and that the door slammer is rejecting God. They always seem very uncomfortable when they are sent off with a smile and a promise of prayer.

 

[Flame4]

I had to tell her that I had to leave for her to stop talking. I listened for awhile b/c I didn’t really have anything else to do, and I hoped maybe I, could teach her something. I did tell her to consider coming back to the Church. She didn’t look to happy about that, but whatever, maybe it will sink in later. I think that we should use these opportunites to evangelize them if possible. They might not listen now, but we plant seeds that way, that Christ will water later.

Lol, that story with the woman and the baby was funny

Anyways, I’m sure she had the best intentions, but there was absolutley no way I would stop being a Catholic. No way. :dts:

Thanks for responding everyone. God Bless.

 

[mark_a]

I don’t know if this is in the right palce, but anyways…

I had my first encounter with a Jehovah’s witness who attempted to covert me I suppose. I was sitting down and she was just standing there so I moved over, since she was elderly. She started talking about the Bible and stuff and I guessed her religion.

She talked about how we must call God by the right name: Jehovah.

My rebutal: Names are symbols. If we say the word “house”, the word house is not really a house. Its a symbol for a real house. Because we are human and we are limited, we need symbols and names to explain higher meanings. That is why we have so many symbols- things that are tangible for us- in the Church, so we can more easily connect with God.

On the other hand, God is unlimited. The names we come up with are simply for us to have something to call him. It doesn’t mean he has a name. So there is no proper “name” for him. To me, using “God” shows how he is unlimited.

Anyways, thats what I said, more or less. Thats what came to my head. At first I was annoyed with her, but I was actually quite glad by the end. I enjoy discussing religion with other people. It helps **me **learn more. I just thought I would share.

In my opinion:

These folks are a worldwide network that is highly trained to convert Catholics especially. After a couple of minutes, many will become comfortable enough to get nasty about the Catholic Church and/or the pope.

It’s best to tell them “I’m not interested”. They will then try to engage you on commonalities like the Lord’s prayer. Stop them in their tracks, make eye contact, and tell them “I’m not interested”.

Unless you are highly trained on how to convert JW’s or very solid in your own faith, you will be out of your league.

If you feel you must engage them, the moral theology of the Catholic Church is a slam dunk. Especially contraception.

 

[Ravyn_Guiliani]

I was born and raised third generation JW and went as far as I could go as a female in that religion (most former JWs will tell you it is a cult, and by some definitions it definitely is!) I did not leave until I was 34 years old. I was even a regular pioneer—which is their lingo for a local missionary required to get in 1000 hours a year(at the time) of evangelizing work. I did that for 15 years! It is very discouraging to say the least to try to even make any points of logic with JWs. The training against any other indoctrination but their own is akin to brainwashng. We were trained to handle any argument/any situation, even with our own text books to respond ‘properly’ (“Reasoning from the Scriptures” is the right hand of every JW knocking on doors. It has word-for-word responses for ‘overcoming every objection’. Anyone who wishes to engage JWs in conversation needs to get a copy of this–oftentimes on eBay but impossible thru JWs.)

The only thing that jars a JW out of their mind-control is cognitive dissonance which most of the time starts with internal challenges. Either internal to the individual–like in their own lives and kept secret from the “Organization” ie doubts, marital troubles, addictions, abuse; or internal as in people trouble in the social network ie gossip, affairs, even criminal activity like pedophilia. This is the only thing that breaks up the mental block to be fertile for theological doubts and the introduction of logic. Truly, without this vulnerability even the Pope is wasting his breath trying to convert a JW! Very rarely a “new light” on an old doctrine of theirs will bring about a minor exodus of members. But then it is turned around and blamed on the ones leaving as lacking faith.

Recently such a thing has happened with one of their main doctrines of the timing of the ‘End’. They have in the last 50 or so years claimed that the “generation” alive to see 1914 (which was their target date for the coming of the Kingdom, invisibly) would see Armageddon in their lifetime. Well obviously that didn’t happen! So the “new light” on the subject as of this passed Summer is some kind of convoluted explanation of the meaning of what a “generation” really is and claiming it to be more abstract and covering ‘overlapping’ lifetimes. (Such as grandchildren still being included in the ‘generation’ if they were born while the original grandparents were still alive…) Even to hardliners this is a stretch. But to stay faithful to the Organization and remain in good standing to avoid being completely shunned and cut off from everyone in your family, friends, and even your job and life in general, JWs have to accept this explanation without question or any evidence of doubt. This is a vulnerable time for many JWs and if handled properly, could be the eye-opener for some.

But there is fail-safe built in to their religion that makes it nearly impossible to break thru. They are told everyone who is not a JW is from Satan the Devil, is out to get them killed, and not to even touch or look at other options or they will be absolutely cut off from this life and receive ‘second-death’ in the future. So if your conversation edifies you, they by all means continue. But it is most likely only supporting their theories that Satan is out to get them and they are being persecuted by you and tempted by your demonic teachings.

I do recommend however that if you engage a JW in conversation that you do not do it at your own home. I was trained to be relentless in returning to convert the householder even if they refused me and turned me away–but were still friendly about it. And every time I was not chased away or threatened–it was potential conversion that I counted by number on a monthly Time Slip they all have to turn in. So you can be sure that what you said to that old woman–did not make a bit of difference to her, except maybe to strengthen her faith that you were wrong and she was right, and she counted her time with you!

All I can do now as a former JW is manitain a type of ministry for those who have already managed to leave or get kicked out. And pray for the others. There is a huge XJW presence on the internet. Which is why JWs are not supposed to be online. (but they are.)

 

[mark_a]

even the Pope is wasting his breath trying to convert a JW!

Did you know that Pope Benedict’s cousin is a JW?

 

[Ravyn_Guiliani]

Did you know that Pope Benedict’s cousin is a JW?

yeah–I had heard that and forgot! well I guess it proves my point. I wonder if they are ever even in the same room together? wouldn’t you like to be a fly on the wall at that family reunion?

 

[Nicea325]

I don’t know if this is in the right palce, but anyways…

I had my first encounter with a Jehovah’s witness who attempted to covert me I suppose. I was sitting down and she was just standing there so I moved over, since she was elderly. She started talking about the Bible and stuff and I guessed her religion.

She talked about how we must call God by the right name: Jehovah.

My rebutal: Names are symbols. If we say the word “house”, the word house is not really a house. Its a symbol for a real house. Because we are human and we are limited, we need symbols and names to explain higher meanings. That is why we have so many symbols- things that are tangible for us- in the Church, so we can more easily connect with God.

On the other hand, God is unlimited. The names we come up with are simply for us to have something to call him. It doesn’t mean he has a name. So there is no proper “name” for him. To me, using “God” shows how he is unlimited.

Anyways, thats what I said, more or less. Thats what came to my head. At first I was annoyed with her, but I was actually quite glad by the end. I enjoy discussing religion with other people. It helps **me ** learn more. I just thought I would share.

All I can say is be aware and cautious. They deny Jesus 100% divinity and teach Jesus is God’s first-creation and perfect creature. I always ask them:

If only God can save us,then explain how a perfect creature (Jesus) can save us too?

 

[scottm]

I always ask them:
If only God can save us,then explain how a perfect creature (Jesus) can save us too?

That’s a good question for an MDiv or ThM class, but I would think it’s too esoteric for the common doorbell ringer. Way back in history the people on the other side of the Nicene Creed had tons of bishops with tons of chapter-and-verse citations in their favor.

I have huge respect for JW’s and Mormons because they do what I don’t: they walk right up to people and tell them about God. Man oh man, is that conviction! Reminds me of things I read in the Book of Acts. Hmmm…

But speaking of hard questions, I turn the conversation, very respectfully mind you, to three things. I can always see the gears turning in the JW’s heads when we’re talking.

(1) One is history. The RC, the EC, the EO, and the Coptic Orthod all have unbroken teacher-disciple lineages back to the several Apostles. What about the JW church? When did it spring into being? (1800s) Where? (USA) Can you name any theologians between the years 100 and 1800 who taught the JW doctrine? (No.) If there is no record of your lineage for some 1700, but there is a continuous record of the lineages of those other four church branches, by what reasoning can you say that you are the church of Jesus? Where were you guys all those centuries?! Where was Jesus all those centuries?! (This one stumps them.)

(2) Second, I ask them why they disagree with the people who invented their “Bible alone” method of interpretation: Luther and Calvin. Those guys invented it. The JW’s claim it. Why do they not agree with the inventors? Why do they not agree with Southern Baptist preachers who also that method of interpretation? In short, what is the rule that distinguishes the correct interpretation from the incorrect interpretation? If you don’t know, then why are you telling me to convert? (They can’t answer this.)

(3) Third, I ask them to tell me the history of the Bible. Did Zondervan Publishing Company decide what books go into it? No? Who did? If they’re borrowing the canon of the Reformation, why do they not accept the doctrine of the Reformation? How can they accept the Bible from Luther and Calvin, but not the teachings of Luther and Calvin!?! And why were the apocryphal books accepted for some 1100 or 1200 years (a canon was chosen in the 300’s)? Who authorized their deletion after so many centuries, huh? If you don’t even know where your Bible came from, then how can you possibly tell me that you’ve got the right reading?

It’s always a good conversation. We part with a handshake and a smile.

 

[Nicea325]

That’s a good question for an MDiv or ThM class, but I would think it’s too esoteric for the common doorbell ringer. Way back in history the people on the other side of the Nicene Creed had tons of bishops with tons of chapter-and-verse citations in their favor.

I have huge respect for JW’s and Mormons because they do what I don’t: they walk right up to people and tell them about God. Man oh man, is that conviction! Reminds me of things I read in the Book of Acts. Hmmm…

But speaking of hard questions, I turn the conversation, very respectfully mind you, to three things. I can always see the gears turning in the JW’s heads when we’re talking.

(1) One is history. The RC, the EC, the EO, and the Coptic Orthod all have unbroken teacher-disciple lineages back to the several Apostles. What about the JW church? When did it spring into being? (1800s) Where? (USA) Can you name any theologians between the years 100 and 1800 who taught the JW doctrine? (No.) If there is no record of your lineage for some 1700, but there is a continuous record of the lineages of those other four church branches, by what reasoning can you say that you are the church of Jesus? Where were you guys all those centuries?! Where was Jesus all those centuries?! (This one stumps them.)

(2) Second, I ask them why they disagree with the people who invented their “Bible alone” method of interpretation: Luther and Calvin. Those guys invented it. The JW’s claim it. Why do they not agree with the inventors? Why do they not agree with Southern Baptist preachers who also that method of interpretation? In short, what is the rule that distinguishes the correct interpretation from the incorrect interpretation? If you don’t know, then why are you telling me to convert? (They can’t answer this.)

(3) Third, I ask them to tell me the history of the Bible. Did Zondervan Publishing Company decide what books go into it? No? Who did? If they’re borrowing the canon of the Reformation, why do they not accept the doctrine of the Reformation? How can they accept the Bible from Luther and Calvin, but not the teachings of Luther and Calvin!?! And why were the apocryphal books accepted for some 1100 or 1200 years (a canon was chosen in the 300’s)? Who authorized their deletion after so many centuries, huh? If you don’t even know where your Bible came from, then how can you possibly tell me that you’ve got the right reading?

It’s always a good conversation. We part with a handshake and a smile.

Trust me brother,I have asked the same questions to them,however,the problem lies in their complete ignorance of history and their belief church history is full of errors and apostasies. They have thick skin and refuse to accept any of it.

 

[Ravyn_Guiliani]

Trust me brother,I have asked the same questions to them,however,the problem lies in their complete ignorance of history and their belief church history is full of errors and apostasies. They have thick skin and refuse to accept any of it.

I agree. None of that would have meant anything to me when I was a JW. I would not have even understood the language. It takes an emotional break to even get a chance to introduce cognitive dissonance. If you really want to try and “plant seeds” in a JW you better off reading a book on cults and high-control groups than on apologetic theology. Author Steve Hassan has a good one. Look it up on Google or Amazon.

Go to an XJW site for more suggestions, like www.jwsupportforum.com

or

Jeff Schwehm’s site : catholicxjw.proboards.com/index.cgi

 

[T_More]

I agree. None of that would have meant anything to me when I was a JW. I would not have even understood the language. It takes an emotional break to even get a chance to introduce cognitive dissonance. If you really want to try and “plant seeds” in a JW you better off reading a book on cults and high-control groups than on apologetic theology. Author Steve Hassan has a good one. Look it up on Google or Amazon.

Go to an XJW site for more suggestions, like www.jwsupportforum.com

or

Jeff Schwehm’s site : catholicxjw.proboards.com/index.cgi

I generally agree with this, but I think if someone were to really know scripture well, and go through a socratic type debate with them, progress can be made.

 

[scipio337]

…She talked about how we must call God by the right name: Jehovah.

My rebutal: Names are symbols. If we say the word “house”, the word house is not really a house. Its a symbol for a real house. Because we are human and we are limited, we need symbols and names to explain higher meanings. That is why we have so many symbols- things that are tangible for us- in the Church, so we can more easily connect with God.

On the other hand, God is unlimited. The names we come up with are simply for us to have something to call him. It doesn’t mean he has a name. So there is no proper “name” for him. To me, using “God” shows how he is unlimited.

Actually, names are important. In Jewish though, a name is more than just an arbitrary designation, it contains some of the essence of the named. An example of this usage occurs in Ex. 3:13-22: Moses is asking more than “what should I call you”. God’s answer is “YHWH”, “I am”. God’s very essence is his being. He’s always been, he always will be. Much of the use of other terms in the OT and NT, Adonai, El Shaddai, Ha Shem etc, are subsitutes, from the Jewish practice from never saying or writing God’s name, lest it could be defaced, or taken in vain.

That being said, you should remind your friend that the word Jehova is a Dominican Catholic’s interpretation of the Hebrew YHWH.

On a side note, Catholics are also discouraged from using the Holy Name.

catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/0804119.htm

“By directive of the Holy Father, in accord with the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, this congregation … deems it convenient to communicate to the bishops’ conferences … as regards the translation and the pronunciation, in a liturgical setting, of the divine name signified in the sacred Tetragrammaton,” said the letter signed by Cardinal Francis Arinze and Archbishop Malcolm Ranjith, congregation prefect and secretary, respectively…

“As an expression of the infinite greatness and majesty of God, it was held to be unpronounceable and hence was replaced during the reading of sacred Scripture by means of the use of an alternate name: ‘Adonai,’ which means ‘Lord,’” the Vatican letter said. Similarly, Greek translations of the Bible used the word “Kyrios” and Latin scholars translated it to “Dominus”; both also mean Lord.

“Avoiding pronouncing the Tetragrammaton of the name of God on the part of the church has therefore its own grounds,” the letter said. "Apart from a motive of a purely philological order, there is also that of remaining faithful to the church’s tradition, from the beginning, that the sacred Tetragrammaton was never pronounced in the Christian context nor translated into any of the languages into which the Bible was translated.’

 

[scottm]

I generally agree with this, but I think if someone were to really know scripture well, and go through a socratic type debate with them, progress can be made.

Yep. It all varies with the person you’re talking to, like in that harvest parable of Jesus: some workers till the soil, and some workers plant the seeds, and some workers water it, and some workers harvest. You don’t always know beforehand which worker you’ll be.

 

[catsrus]

Even if a jw has an interest in what you are saying, they may not shopw that interest or the other jw with him/her will go straight to the elders to report it and make plenty of trouble for the person to whom you were speaking. That person may even be reprimanded in front of the entire congregation. They humiliate their people frequently.
The best you can hope for is that the person takes what you have pointed out home and look for more information behind closed doors.
I know all this is true as I once was associated with the jws.