My first encounter with an Abortionist

[MooCowSteph]

infabilly:

Nice.
I know how I meant my words to come out, and I know that I didn’t call anybody on here dumb. Only the fact that a lot of people are suprisingly close-minded, and don’t accept the fact that others have the right to choose to do something anybody on here wouldn’t do (ie, get an abortion) is dumb.

Yes, you have the right to be pro-life, but it’s ignorant to force your beliefs and views on those who have differing ones, instead of simply just accepting the fact that not everybody is going to think, believe, and view things the same things as you do.
It’s a big world, and there are so many different people who reside in it, not accepting the fact that people believe different things and forcing yours on them only makes things worse, and makes your religion seem brainwashed and pushy (of course, I don’t think this. I’ve only witnessed and heard it).

Not only do you buy the standard nonsense pro-choice argument but you don’t even understand the pro-life argument. We all realize that currently women have the “choice” to have an abortion. What we’re saying it that just because something is legal doesn’t make it morally OK. Why is murder morally justified because someone has an STD, is scared of parenting, or wants their child to be born on halloween? Is not murder, murder? Why is calling something what it clearly is forcing my beliefs on you? You even said that there are circumstances (like when a woman has sex not thinking of the consequences) where the women should be forced to keep the child. Either you recognize that the baby in the womb is a human or you don’t. If you do, then please tell us why it’s OK to kill that human baby.

 

[Celia]

Um…who’s forcing whose beliefs here? This is a Catholic forum and you asked questions and got Catholic answers.

And you did say it was dumb. These are not your words?

/Either way, it’s pretty dumb to tell somebody they’re wrong for doing something if it’s something they really want or even need/

(This makes no sense, by the way. “Hmmm, I really want that car and I need it too, real bad…I think I’ll go steal it now.” What??)

 

[mlchance]

infabilly:

Technically the baby isn’t alive if its heart hasn’t started to beat.

Utter nonsense. It’s always interesting that people who seek to justify abortion have to resort to unscientific drivel to do so. A developing embryo is, by every scientific criteria, alive from the moment of conception.

infabilly:

…I know that I didn’t call anybody on here dumb.

infabilly:

Either way, it’s pretty dumb to tell somebody they’re wrong for doing something…

– Mark L. Chance.

 

[Jocelyn]

When I was 8 weeks pregnant, dh came to my doctor’s appt. with me. My doc did an ultrasound. My daughter looked like a little lima bean jumping around. My husband got tears in his eyes. Life was inside of me. We were filled with joy. My husband’s comment was,“How can anyone get an abortion?”

Abortion is wrong. Should I judge anyone who has had one? No. It’s not my place to judge. There are so many messed up selfish people in the world who don’t have Christ in their lives. This is where the problem begins. If one has had an abortion and is ready to come to Christ through the Church, we should all be there with open arms.

I wonder if this woman is screaming for help. Maybe she openly told you that she had 4 abortions because she is suffering inside and needs a helping hand. It’s just a thought.

As for panic attacks. Well infallibly, I suffer from major panic disorder. I have suffered with panic attacks for the past 10 years and they are definitely not fun to deal with. But deal with them I must. I went through my pregnancy fine. Abortion never crossed my mind!!!

 

[BlindSheep]

Infabilly-
We (prolifers) believe that abortion = killing an innocent person.

I know you don’t believe this, however, you do not seem to realize that *we *do. Otherwise, you would realise how illogical and immoral your questions and arguments sound from our perspective.

Allow me to enlighten you. From our perspective (abortion = killing an innocent person), you are asking us:

1. Is it OK to kill an innocent person because his/her father raped you?
2. Is it OK to kill an innocent person to relieve your own anxiety/depression/etc.?
3. Is it OK to kill an innocent person because he/she has or will get an STD?
4. Is it OK to kill an innocent person because you are immature/irresponsible/poor/sick/mentally ill?
5. Is it OK to kill an innocent person to cure yourself of an illness?
6. Is it OK to kill an innocent person because you want a baby born on Halloween/a boy/a girl/ etc?
7. Is it OK to kill an innocent person because he/she is disabled?
8. Should killing innocent people be legal?
9. Should anyone who believes killing an innocent person is OK therefore be allowed to do so under the law?
10. Should those who oppose the killing of innocent people not attempt to pass laws against it because this would mean “imposing morality on others”?

So you see, you can easily determine how we would respond to any question or statement about abortion by substituting the phrase “killing an innocent person” for thte word “abortion”.

Now perhaps we can get to the real debate: Whether or not abortion = killing an innocent person.

 

[coyote]

infabilly:

Only the fact that a lot of people are suprisingly close-minded, and don’t accept the fact that others have the right to choose to do something anybody on here wouldn’t do (ie, get an abortion) is dumb.).

Most people here won’t choose to rape a woman or a child. But, based on the logic of your statment above, The rapist could (and most pedophiles do) consider those people “surprisingly closed minded.”

infabilly:

Yes, you have the right to be pro-life, but it’s ignorant to force your beliefs and views on those who have differing ones, instead of simply just accepting the fact that not everybody is going to think, believe, and view things the same things as you do.
It’s a big world, and there are so many different people who reside in it, not accepting the fact that people believe different things and forcing yours on them only makes things worse, and makes your religion seem brainwashed and pushy (of course, I don’t think this. I’ve only witnessed and heard it).

Let’s see, you, having exercised your right of “CHOICE” have come to a CATHOLIC discussion site and expect everyone here to not have a CATHOLIC mind set!

Do you know that there are men in South Africa who BELIEVE that having sex with a virgin will cure their AIDS? Do you know how these men insure that the person they have this “theraputic” sex with IS virginal? Easy, they gang rape infants. According you your logic, they are only “different people, believing different things”. Do you propose then, that anyone that is outraged about the WRONGNESS of this behavior is "brainwashed, pushy and forcing their beliefs on others?

 

[Viki59]

Well, having checked out infabilly’s web site, I think he’s showed remarkable restraint in his posts.
I used to be pro-abortion, at your age in fact.
I was ready to have one, if need be, and thought it was a sign of responsible maturity.
I think now that the Holy Spirit is the one who changes minds and hearts. We should stop arguing with infabilly and pray for him.

By the way, to the guy who refused to give me a job but said he’d pray for me – thank you. It’s because of prayers of people like you that I’m a Catholic now.

 

[Petertherock]

There are plenty of evil people who love abortions. They just see “fetuses” as globs of tissue that feel no pain so it’s OK to murder them because they don’t see it as murder. I just had a big battle with a bunch of my friends when I told them abortion is murdering people.

I got everything from there are too many people in this world now so we need population control to all the people are killing animals and animals are more important than people. (yes they really said this) To the standard…until you men have a baby yourself shut up about abortion. To it’s my body. And the rest of the standard Kool Aid stuff the pro aborts use.

 

[infabilly]

Mark L. Chance: It’s the act that’s dumb, not the people themselves. I’m sorry that I didn’t make it clear enough for you.

Viki59: I have a vagina, thank you! I used to be anti-abortion, but then I started to realize “Hey, it’s legal, it’s a woman’s choice. If she can handle an abortion maturely, then more to her. If she has problems afterwards, she can always seek help. Not every woman can afford being pregnant, with all the checkups they’d have to get if any problem with the pregnancy occurs. And hey, at least they’re not getting back-alley abortions, which are more dangerous”.

coyote: So because I’m on a Catholic forum, and wasn’t raised Catholic, that means every Catholic on here is not willing to accept the fact that others may have different views, opinions, and beliefs?
I expect the Catholics here to have their own beliefs and be proud of it and everything, but I wasn’t expecting most people on here to not accept any other belief differing from their own.
You brought up people of an entirely different country and culture, with minds sicker than pro-choicers.

MooCowSteph: If a girl is freely having sex with every guy she meets, and ends up getting pregnant, I think she should keep the baby as a little lesson learned.

If a girl is having sex with only one person (boyfriend, or husband), and she ends up getting pregnant, she may not want to be pregnant right then or later on (in 3 months or so). I think in that situation, it’s her choice as to whether she would like to stay pregnant or not, since she’s not pouncing on every guy she bumps into. A woman could want a baby, and get herself pregnant, and then later on realize she’s not completely ready to go through the pregnancy, and would consider getting an abortion.

This is just my own opinion and I’m not saying you have to agree with it, only realize not everybody is going to think the same way you do about abortions.

I understand this though, it’s only that pro-life religious people are unclear of the meaning of separation of church and state.

 

[mlchance]

infabilly:

I used to be anti-abortion, but then I started to realize “Hey, it’s legal, it’s a woman’s choice. If she can handle an abortion maturely, then more to her…”

Ah. As long as one is mature about the decision to take a human life, everything is just fine.

From yet another insulting and false generalization:

infabilly:

I understand this though, it’s only that pro-life religious people are unclear of the meaning of separation of church and state.

We return to what is, at best, an error of fact:

infabilly:

Technically the baby isn’t alive if its heart hasn’t started to beat.

Since you can’t even get the most basic of biological facts correct, I suggest you avoid forays into constitutional law.

– Mark L. Chance.

 

[infabilly]

I only typed what I read: that a baby’s heart does not begin to beat until 18-25 days later while being inside the womb, so technically it is not alive until the heart starts to beat then. I believe I stated that, if it wasn’t clear enough to any of you, I’m sorry you misunderstood what I was trying to say.

Personally, I wouldn’t get an abortion. I love kids, but I’m only trying see a pregnant woman’s side of things, and one of the many reasons as to why she would get an abortion. It’s not my choice or responsibility, it’s hers.
If she can handle the effects of an abortion afterwards, awesome. If she can’t, she can get help. If she regrets getting an abortion, I’m sure she would adopt a child or try getting pregnant again and learning to deal with the pregnancy and raise a child.

Of course to a Catholic, an answer going against their belief and/or morals isn’t good enough for them. And seeing as how I’m not Catholic, and am not big on over-zealous people, I’m only stating my opinion and viewing things from the other side of the fence, not trying to start an online “war”.
A lot of people don’t understand the meaning of separation of church and state, I guess that would be anybody of any belief so I guess it’s not 100% fair that I made that comment seem directed at all Catholics. I didn’t mean it as an insult.

I’m sure if my older sister suddenly decided to get an abortion, I would be sad. But then I’d also understand that life goes on, and it was completely her choice. But I know she wouldn’t get an abortion, because it was her goal to get married to her match and have a child, and she accomplished both (though got pregnant sooner than she planned).

 

[mlchance]

infabilly:

I only typed what I read: that a baby’s heart does not begin to beat until 18-25 days later while being inside the womb, so technically it is not alive until the heart starts to beat then.

What you read is wrong. The developing embryo/fetus/baby (pick your term) is alive prior to even having a heart that can beat. To say that a developing embryo/fetus/baby isn’t alive because it’s heart isn’t beating to say something that is not true. It’s the kind of absurd thing pro-abortion people dream up to rationalize their support for the destruction of innocent human life.

– Mark L. Chance.

 

[infabilly]

mlchance:

What you read is wrong. The developing embryo/fetus/baby (pick your term) is alive prior to even having a heart that can beat. To say that a developing embryo/fetus/baby isn’t alive because it’s heart isn’t beating to say something that is not true. It’s the kind of absurd thing pro-abortion people dream up to rationalize their support for the destruction of innocent human life.

– Mark L. Chance.

Well I guess the author of the magazine article I read should’ve checked that website out before publishing the article, hmm?

But people who are for abortion are still going to stand their ground and get as many abortions as they want for as long as it stays legal.
Bringing religion into it would probably make them want an abortion even more, because a lot of people don’t agree with Catholic beliefs. shrug
Somebody’s loss, somebody’s gain.

 

[mlchance]

infabilly:

Well I guess the author of the magazine article I read should’ve checked that website out before publishing the article, hmm?

Quite probably would have been a very good idea. Any first year biology student ought to know that a developing embryo is alive before it even has a heart to beat.

– Mark L. Chance.

 

[BlindSheep]

infabilly:

Well I guess the author of the magazine article I read should’ve checked that website out before publishing the article, hmm?

But people who are for abortion are still going to stand their ground and get as many abortions as they want for as long as it stays legal.
Bringing religion into it would probably make them want an abortion even more, because a lot of people don’t agree with Catholic beliefs. shrug
Somebody’s loss, somebody’s gain.

Infabilly, you keep dancing around the issue here. Can I ask you a question?
Do you believe that men have a right to choose whether or not to rape little girls?
Why or why not?
Do you believe that the law should prevent men from doing so?
Why?

 

[Celia]

quote/infabilly:
coyote: So because I’m on a Catholic forum, and wasn’t raised Catholic, that means every Catholic on here is not willing to accept the fact that others may have different views, opinions, and beliefs?
I expect the Catholics here to have their own beliefs and be proud of it and everything, but I wasn’t expecting most people on here to not accept any other belief differing from their own./quote

I’m not coyote so I probably shouldn’t be nosing my way in here but I think you should know that we are well aware that people have different beliefs than we do…obviously, or abortion would not be legal.

We as Catholics think of abortion as a terrible, wrong thing. It is murder. For us to just say, “well, I think it’s wrong but hey if you want to do it, go ahead” not only doesn’t make sense, it is hypocritical. If I think something is wrong, I’m going to fight against it. I’m going to make my voice known against this terrible thing, not just ignore it. That’s what having a belief IS. It is our right to take a stance against this thing, not wishy-washy our way around it. It is considered a mortal sin to promote abortion in any way. You will find most faithful Catholics taking that seriously. I know that people have abortions and that they think it is ok. But no, I will never accept that it is ok that people do this. This is our religion, our faith, and we are not going to waver on an incredibly important issue because other people think differently than we do.

 

[MrIrish]

infabilly:

I only typed what I read: that a baby’s heart does not begin to beat until 18-25 days later while being inside the womb, so technically it is not alive until the heart starts to beat then. I believe I stated that, if it wasn’t clear enough to any of you, I’m sorry you misunderstood what I was trying to say.

The maple tree outside my window doesn’t have a beating heart either, yet it is alive. A beating heart is not a prerequisite for a being to be alive.

Personally, I wouldn’t get an abortion. I love kids, but I’m only trying see a pregnant woman’s side of things, and one of the many reasons as to why she would get an abortion. It’s not my choice or responsibility, it’s hers.

Why doesn’t the developing child get a choice?

If she can handle the effects of an abortion afterwards, awesome. If she can’t, she can get help. If she regrets getting an abortion, I’m sure she would adopt a child or try getting pregnant again and learning to deal with the pregnancy and raise a child.

Of course to a Catholic, an answer going against their belief and/or morals isn’t good enough for them. And seeing as how I’m not Catholic, and am not big on over-zealous people, I’m only stating my opinion and viewing things from the other side of the fence, not trying to start an online “war”.
A lot of people don’t understand the meaning of separation of church and state, I guess that would be anybody of any belief so I guess it’s not 100% fair that I made that comment seem directed at all Catholics. I didn’t mean it as an insult.

You come here, to a Catholic bulletin board, advocating abortion “rights” and can’t understand why “over-zealous people” are challenging your views?

One of the 10 Commandments forbids stealing. We have laws against stealing. Does that mean we should repeal all laws against stealing because a religious tradition holds it is immoral?

I’m sure if my older sister suddenly decided to get an abortion, I would be sad. But then I’d also understand that life goes on, and it was completely her choice. But I know she wouldn’t get an abortion, because it was her goal to get married to her match and have a child, and she accomplished both (though got pregnant sooner than she planned).

Yes, life goes on for your sister, but not for your niece or nephew, who was just exterminated by the abortionist.

 

[coyote]

It’s obvious, that on this subject at least, infabilly is myopic and stubbornly obtuse to the fact that others do not agree with her. She also refuses to accept the fact that no one is obligated to accept her point of view. Considering the accusations made about others being narrow minded, infailly exibits some hypocrisy herself.

This is a dead argument.

 

[MooCowSteph]

Mark L. Chance: It’s the act that’s dumb, not the people themselves. I’m sorry that I didn’t make it clear enough for you.

Viki59: I have a vagina, thank you! I used to be anti-abortion, but then I started to realize “Hey, it’s legal, it’s a woman’s choice. If she can handle an abortion maturely, then more to her. If she has problems afterwards, she can always seek help. Not every woman can afford being pregnant, with all the checkups they’d have to get if any problem with the pregnancy occurs. And hey, at least they’re not getting back-alley abortions, which are more dangerous”.

There is federal, state, and private help for women who “can’t afford” to be pregnant. For one, if you give your child up for adoption, the adopting couple will nearly always pay your medical bills.

coyote: So because I’m on a Catholic forum, and wasn’t raised Catholic, that means every Catholic on here is not willing to accept the fact that others may have different views, opinions, and beliefs?
I expect the Catholics here to have their own beliefs and be proud of it and everything, but I wasn’t expecting most people on here to not accept any other belief differing from their own.
You brought up people of an entirely different country and culture, with minds sicker than pro-choicers.

In all seriousness, did you expect to come here and sway us? You probably have very little understanding of Catholicism, but it is a core belief of ours that ALL life is sacred. You were not going to sway us with your stock arguments. And in all fairness, YOU are in turn not accepting any belief other than your own.

MooCowSteph: If a girl is freely having sex with every guy she meets, and ends up getting pregnant, I think she should keep the baby as a little lesson learned.

If a girl is having sex with only one person (boyfriend, or husband), and she ends up getting pregnant, she may not want to be pregnant right then or later on (in 3 months or so). I think in that situation, it’s her choice as to whether she would like to stay pregnant or not, since she’s not pouncing on every guy she bumps into. A woman could want a baby, and get herself pregnant, and then later on realize she’s not completely ready to go through the pregnancy, and would consider getting an abortion.

Either women have “choice” or they don’t. Make up your mind. Who is going to decide which women are forced to keep their babies in order to learn a lesson and who can have an abortion? Our being pro-life isn’t about teaching women lessons. It’s about not talking the life of an innocent human being.

I understand this though, it’s only that pro-life religious people are unclear of the meaning of separation of church and state.

My guess is that you are quite unclear as to the meaning of seperation of church and state since it has nothing at all to do with this argument. Separation of church and state refers to the federal government’s not being able to establish a federal religion, and not being able to restrict the free exercise of religion.

 

[paramedicgirl]

infabilly:

@Celia: I heard STDs aren’t fun to have. Technically the baby isn’t alive if its heart hasn’t started to beat.

It is the Catholic position that life begins at the moment of conception. If that is the moment that God imparts a soul to the baby, then it is very much alive right from the beginning. There is never a good reason for abortion. Abortion is murder and the taking of an innocent, helpless life.

You mentioned that you found partial birth abortion disgusting. What about the other types?

Suction Aspiration
This is the most common method of abortion during the first 12 weeks of pregnancy. General or local anaesthesia is given to the mother and her cervix is quickly dilated. A suction curette (hollow tube with a knife-edged tip) is inserted into the womb. This instrument is then connected to a vacuum machine by a transparent tube. The vacuum suction, 29 times more powerful than a household vacuum cleaner, tears the fetus and placenta into small pieces which are sucked through the tube into a bottle and discarded

Dilation and Curettage (D&C)
This method is similar to the suction method with the added insertion of a hook shaped knife (curette) which cuts the baby into pieces. The pieces are scraped out through the cervix and discarded [Note: This abortion method should not be confused with a therapeutic D&C done for reasons other than pregancy.]

Dilation and Evacuation (D&E)
This method is used up to 18 weeks’ gestation. Instead of the loop-shaped knife used in D&C abortions, a pair of forceps is inserted into the womb to grasp part of the fetus. The teeth of the forceps twist and tear the bones of the unborn child. This process is repeated until the fetus is totally dismembered and removed. Usually the spine must be snapped and the skull crushed in order to remove them

Salt Poisoning (Saline Injection):
Used after 16 weeks (four months) when enough fluid has accumulated. A long needle injects a strong salt solution through the mother’s abdomen into the baby’s sac. The baby swallows this fluid and is poisoned by it. It also acts as a corrosive, burning off the outer layer of skin. It normally takes somewhat over an hour for the baby to die from this. Within 24 hours, labor will usually set in and the mother will give birth to a dead or dying baby. (There have been many cases of these babies being born alive. They are usually left unattended to die. However, a few have survived and later been adopted.)

Prostaglandin Chemical Abortion:
This form of abortion uses chemicals developed by the Upjohn Pharmaceutical Co. which cause the uterus to contract intensely, pushing out the developing baby. The contractions are more violent than normal, natural contractions, so the unborn baby is frequently killed by them – some have even been decapitated. Many, however, have also been born alive.

Hysterotomy or Caesarean Section:
Used mainly in the last three months of pregnancy, the womb is entered by surgery through the wall of the abdomen. The technique is similar to a Caesarean delivery, except that the umbilical cord is usually cut while the baby is still in the womb, thus cutting off his oxygen supply and causing him to suffocate. Sometimes the baby is removed alive and simply left in a corner to die of neglect or exposure

Five steps to a partial birth abortion:

1. Guided by ultrasound, the abortionist grabs the baby’s legs with forceps.
2. The baby’s leg is pulled out into the birth canal.
3. The abortionist delivers the baby’s entire body, except for the head
4. The abortionist jams scissors into the baby’s skull. The scissors are then opened to enlarge the skull.
5. The scissors are removed and a suction catheter is inserted. The child’s brains are sucked out, causing the skull to collapse. The dead baby is then removed.

Info taken from this website
lifesite.net/abortiontypes/