My first encounter with an Abortionist

[infabilly]

MrIrish:

The maple tree outside my window doesn’t have a beating heart either, yet it is alive. A beating heart is not a prerequisite for a being to be alive.

Why doesn’t the developing child get a choice?

People don’t give birth to trees, and babies don’t provide oxygen and homes for little animals.

MrIrish:

You come here, to a Catholic bulletin board, advocating abortion “rights” and can’t understand why “over-zealous people” are challenging your views?

Well, I’m actually open-minded to learning about all the many beliefs people have. I’m just finding a lot of the Catholic ones as a little more bizarre, etc.
But God forbid I register on a message board to state my opinion/views and learn.

MrIrish:

One of the 10 Commandments forbids stealing. We have laws against stealing. Does that mean we should repeal all laws against stealing because a religious tradition holds it is immoral?

Stealing from stores causes the prices on those items, does it not?

MrIrish:

Yes, life goes on for your sister, but not for your niece or nephew, who was just exterminated by the abortionist.

And I’m glad the baby is still in her stomach, and that she and her husband are raising it a Christian.
MooCowStef:

In all seriousness, did you expect to come here and sway us? You probably have very little understanding of Catholicism, but it is a core belief of ours that ALL life is sacred. You were not going to sway us with your stock arguments. And in all fairness, YOU are in turn not accepting any belief other than your own.

No, actually. I expected myself to register after seeing some heartless responses about a woman talking about her homosexual relative being ignored by his own family in another forum. I wanted to say something about it, but the forum was locked & I’d have to register anyway.

I just think that if a woman has an abortion, either 1 or 4 of them, then it’s all her business.
A woman could get pregnant, and then later on realize they (including her husband, or maybe just her) is/are not ready for a child, which there could be many reasons for that besides “Oh I just don’t want to be loose down there, heheeee”, or have a stretched out stomach, or risk the complications that pregnancy may provide. They could have too much of a busy lifestyle to have a child just yet, but still enjoy the pleasures of sex (whoa).

Again, I didn’t plan on swaying people. Like I said to Mr.Irish, I’m actually open to learning about other peoples’ beliefs, unlike many others (wow fun, I’ve also joined an Athiest board and a Buddhist board, am I going to Hell?! o noooeee). I have more than a little understanding about Catholicism, I’ve read about it. My older sisters’ ex-boyfriend is Catholic, so she would talk about their church and everything (saying she felt weird because there was no singing, but that’s not the point).
I’ve already accepted the facts that you all have your own beliefs, I just think you’re all coming off as up-tight about somebody else’s life, somebody you’ll never meet who could possibly decide to have another child or even adopt if she does not want to go through a pregnancy.
But again, this is just me.
This is my own little realistic view. My own little realistic opinion.

BlindSheep: (Indeed).
Well you know, stuff like that always happens. We can’t control it, religion can’t control it (not everybody believes in God, so). Nobody knows when a woman is going to get an abortion, nobody knows when a person is going to rape somebody.
Rape and abortion have been going around for quite some time now, but rape has been around longer. And for those who decide to say “Does that make it right?”; No, don’t be a smarta–.
We can’t control what people do. That’s it. They can be punished, sure, but seeing as how abortion is legal and rape isn’t, it’s kinda hard for a mother going through an unwanted pregnancy to be sentenced to prison for 25 years to life just because she may not be ready to have a child just yet, but enjoys having sex with her significant other (or others if she’s um, experienced? hah).

 

[infabilly]

paramedicgirl:
I mentioned partial birth abortion and said it was disgusting because at the time, it was the only type of abortion that I read about. I’m not saying the other abortions tickle the baby to death.
Since I was looking up abortion facts at that time, I kept reading.
I started thinking about life and death, then wondered why nobody tries to make war illegal since thousands of people die for no reason as well.

 

[mlchance]

paramedicgirl:

It is the Catholic position that life begins at the moment of conception.

Not only that, it is also a scientific fact which stands in sharp contrast to fantasy scenarios about how a nonliving embryo suddenly becomes “technically” alive only after it has managed to develop a beating heart (no small feat for something that supposedly wasn’t living beforehand).

– Mark L. Chance.

 

[infabilly]

Was the woman who had “about four” abortions Catholic?

I know Catholics believe life is extremely sacred, but if the woman isn’t Catholic or even religious at all, I don’t see why you all feel the need to make such a big deal out of it, as if a woman getting an abortion is as rare as finding a four-leafed clover.

I would think that a very religious person who bumps into somebody with a differing religion wouldn’t care so much as to what the person with the differing religion does, even if it goes against the very religious person’s beliefs.
But then it’s like an animal rights activist telling a meat-eater to stop eating meat, because “it’s murder”, because that’s what they believe. Or the same animal rights activist telling a person to stop sacrificing animals, though it’s part of that persons’ belief (how many religions do you know of that kill animals because it’s part of their religion?).

 

[infabilly]

Hmmm, you know…

I just started looking at it this way, and it’s only what I think, I’m not saying you should think it too; religion is just different ways to understand things not easily understood. The idea behind it is pretty much to do something with your life and value it, but it’s given in different ways depending on the teachings.
I believe the whole point behind religion is to just have faith in something and to do good with your life, so believing in anything should be good enough as long as you aren’t doing things that all religions and humanity included deems wrong. But I really don’t condone others for having beliefs or some kinda life-guideline, like religion pretty much is.

Meh, looking at it from todays’ standpoint, a lot of religion is a joke since we figured out 90% of the things religion tries answering. The only question unanswered that religion tries answering, is what happens when we die.
I didn’t mean to start up some online war about abortion, I only look at things people are against from the other side. Like I probably mentioned before, I’m open to learning about other religions, not going around trying to convert or getting others to believe in what I believe in (which really isn’t much).
The world has too many problems as it is, and I kind of see religion as one of them (since there are a lot of arguments and wars based on different religions and beliefs). That’s why I don’t set myself on one religion, but open my mind up to other religions because there’s so many out there and really, I don’t think one religion is a true religion (what if everybody’s God turned out to be the same God, but He only wanted to put us through an obstacle of religions? Not many people truely know, despite what they’re told to believe). shrug

So really, I’m done with this argument, since I didn’t mean for it to get this out-of-hand.

 

[twiztedseraph]

infabilly:

Hmmm, you know…

I just started looking at it this way, and it’s only what I think, I’m not saying you should think it too; religion is just different ways to understand things not easily understood. The idea behind it is pretty much to do something with your life and value it, but it’s given in different ways depending on the teachings.
I believe the whole point behind religion is to just have faith in something and to do good with your life, so believing in anything should be good enough as long as you aren’t doing things that all religions and humanity included deems wrong. But I really don’t condone others for having beliefs or some kinda life-guideline, like religion pretty much is.

Meh, looking at it from todays’ standpoint, a lot of religion is a joke since we figured out 90% of the things religion tries answering. The only question unanswered that religion tries answering, is what happens when we die.
I didn’t mean to start up some online war about abortion, I only look at things people are against from the other side. Like I probably mentioned before, I’m open to learning about other religions, not going around trying to convert or getting others to believe in what I believe in (which really isn’t much).
The world has too many problems as it is, and I kind of see religion as one of them (since there are a lot of arguments and wars based on different religions and beliefs). That’s why I don’t set myself on one religion, but open my mind up to other religions because there’s so many out there and really, I don’t think one religion is a true religion (what if everybody’s God turned out to be the same God, but He only wanted to put us through an obstacle of religions? Not many people truely know, despite what they’re told to believe). shrug

So really, I’m done with this argument, since I didn’t mean for it to get this out-of-hand.

For someone who listens to HIM you’re quite articulate. Look, in the final analysis, abortion isn’t a religious debate, just as the holocaust wasn’t a religious debate. It is a human rights issue. Yes the Church is the one standing up for it, because everyone is too weak to. We are always coutner cultural, fighting so as to lift humans from the misery of being swayed to and fro with the “fad” of the times. Human life is sacred and the rights that we all hold dear are sacred and inseperable from the human person. Science explicitly defines for us that life begins from conception, just because it doesn’t look human means nothing, it has its own dna, its own identity, its own soul. By protecting the rights of the littlest human being, we protect ourselves. Why? I was discussing abortion the other day with my friends. Being grossly outnumbered by pseudo atheistic Christians (don’t ask, its the only term I can use to describe them). They say abortion is alright as the fetus becomes human only when it takes first breath, the others say only when it has a birth certificate! Abortion is demeaning and evil.

 

[infabilly]

Well yes, although there are some women who sometimes feel an abortion is necessary for themselves or the child (like I said about the STD being passed on-thing, I wouldn’t exactly know if there were actual medicines or something to prevent it from being passed onto the child though).
I guess it just kinda irks me when religious people bash the woman for getting one, even if she herself isn’t religious at all, and they don’t know the full story behind her abortion(s), though they probably wouldn’t accept it either way because they grew to believe life is sacred, while others with a different/no religion believe murder/death/etc is just a part of life.
But, in the end, if it isn’t so much of a religious debate, then why is it usually brought into it?

 

[urban-hermit]

twiztedseraph:

I pointed out that the more conservative a bishop is the better…long story short, she brings up abortions, I said it causes depression, she goes thats not true I’ve had about four of em.

How does one speak to such a person?

First of all, RIGHT ON for wanting to speak to the person and having the guts to try and share the Truth and help prevent more pain and evil coming into the world! In the last 4 years I have twice encountered men at work in “around the watercooler” type discussion situations who bragged about impregnating women and said “oh she had an abortion” like it was nothing. I especially remember the first time because I literally felt like he had punched me in the stomach. I had no words.

But since then I’ve thought alot about it and now if an opportunity presents itself my approach is to concentrate on the most bedrock basic truths the person will accept. I figure even if they don’t change their mind right away, I’m not discouraged because I will pray to God that the points I made get them thinking. I’m sure you already know these things, this is just my way of presenting them to people I encounter who do not have an appreciation for the connection between our sexuality and life itself.

1 - God is the author of life. He decides who lives and who does not. Women and men are privileged to participate in this process, but they are not the masters of the process, they are participants. If they do not conduct themselves morally, they will have to defend their actions to God - along with the effects their actions have on others.

2 - Every human being starts out as just a conception. That conception represents the future of the human race. He or she is a brother or sister to me. The Catholic Church teaches that we humans, as a race, are one. We are all more connected than we realize. And even non-Christians sense this truth in their own way. Sex in all its wonderfulness and pleasure also functions as a life-support system for our species. It is not something to be toyed with.

3 - The woman does have a choice (unless she is forcibly denied the choice by the heinous crime of rape). I also try to point out to men that the choice is just as much theirs. But the choice happens before the child is conceived. After conception the only moral choice is to protect and nurture the new human being that has come into existence.

4 - At this point a person such as the woman you encountered will sense the chasm between the way you look at things and the way she does, and assume that her way of looking at things is just as valid as yours. “Are you telling me I’m an immoral person?” … “Are you judging me?” … “What makes you think you can impose your views on others?” … etc.

It’s a real learning process to stay polite, cool and collected, and just present the facts as you see them. Sometimes you can simply leave it at that. The truth has its own power, and many times entering into a protracted debate just muddies the waters and gives them ways to rationalize their philosophically unstable position. Keep it short and sweet and hit just one or a few bedrock basic points and then pray that the truth will enter their heart.

We have to realize that we will not usually be thanked and treated politely for this. People get mad when they hear certain truths that hit too close to home. Folks will “revile you and utter all manner of falsehood against you” because of the Truth. Offer it up, man!

 

[Celia]

Great post, urban-hermit

 

[PiusXIII]

In recent months I found that I personally know at least 4 women who have had abortions. This really shocks me. I had no idea that abortion was so widespread or so widely accepted. The one girl had even had 2 abortions (apparently becoming pregnant by 2 different guys within a 6 month period) and she still goes to Mass every week.

I just don’t understand it.

 

[paramedicgirl]

infabilly:

So if you were a pregnant woman with genital herpes, you’d still give birth to your child knowing your STD will be passed on? )

Another ridiculous, misinformed reason to kill an innocent life. A woman with open sores from genital herpes would give birth by Cesarean Section, so the baby would not be exposed to the STD

 

[Zerith]

infabilly:

I understand this though, it’s only that pro-life religious people are unclear of the meaning of separation of church and state.

Yet again, another reason to love being Irish. The “Seperation between Church and State” is to a far lesser extent in this country in comparison to others.

Unfortunately, there have been a few calls in An Seanad Éireann by a (very) few Labour or extreme Social Liberal/Socialists calling for a greater seperation.

I cannot forsee that happening in the next ten to fifteen years, even longer.

 

[astegallrnc]

I guess it just kinda irks me when religious people bash the woman for getting one, even if she herself isn’t religious at all,

There are many things that I “bash” which are an individual’s belief, value, etc. I don’t support female circumcision, killing a child who shames the family, slavery, the holocaust, etc., but I know there are individuals who believe this is perfectly ok. I’d make a big deal out of anything I believe is wrong. Someone has to be a voice or else… well, I don’t even want to imagine what this country and world would be like.

…and they don’t know the full story behind her abortion(s), though they probably wouldn’t accept it either way because they grew to believe life is sacred, while others with a different/no religion believe murder/death/etc is just a part of life.

Hmmmm… I can’t name one acceptable reason to kill an innocent baby. I do believe that in some cases women who choose abortion are not doing so with full consent, but that is just by humble opinion.

Autumn

 

[paramedicgirl]

infabilly:

Well yes, although there are some women who sometimes feel an abortion is necessary for themselves or the child (like I said about the STD being passed on-thing, I wouldn’t exactly know if there were actual medicines or something to prevent it from being passed onto the child though).
I guess it just kinda irks me when religious people bash the woman for getting one, even if she herself isn’t religious at all, and they don’t know the full story behind her abortion(s), though they probably wouldn’t accept it either way because they grew to believe life is sacred, while others with a different/no religion believe murder/death/etc is just a part of life.
But, in the end, if it isn’t so much of a religious debate, then why is it usually brought into it?

You just don’t get it. People who perform abortions and those who request them are literally murdering an innocent, helpless baby, by the most callous methods. Could you stand there and watch the procedure if it were visible to the naked eye? Would you scream for them to stop if you could actually see the baby being ripped apart limb for limb? What if you could hear the baby’s scream? Or, would you turn away and shrug, saying that is just part of life (and death).

Have you ever watched the abortion video the silent scream?
silentscream.org/

 

[paramedicgirl]

infabilly:

Well yes, although there are some women who sometimes feel an abortion is necessary for themselves or the child (like I said about the STD being passed on-thing, I wouldn’t exactly know if there were actual medicines or something to prevent it from being passed onto the child though).
I guess it just kinda irks me when religious people bash the woman for getting one, even if she herself isn’t religious at all, and they don’t know the full story behind her abortion(s), though they probably wouldn’t accept it either way because they grew to believe life is sacred, while others with a different/no religion believe murder/death/etc is just a part of life.
But, in the end, if it isn’t so much of a religious debate, then why is it usually brought into it?

You just don’t get it. People who perform abortions and those who request them are literally murdering an innocent, helpless baby, by the most callous methods. Could you stand there and watch the procedure if it were visible to your naked eye? If you were allowed to observe an abortion, would you feel differently when you saw the dismembered body parts in a basin? How is this different from pedophiles who mutilate and murder our children? Would you scream for them to stop if you could actually see the baby being ripped apart limb for limb? What if you could hear the baby’s scream? Or, would you turn away and shrug, saying that is just part of life (and death)?

Have you ever watched the abortion video “The Silent Scream?”
silentscream.org/

 

[BlindSheep]

infabilly:

BlindSheep: (Indeed).

You’ve cut me to the quick.

Well you know, stuff like that always happens. We can’t control it, religion can’t control it (not everybody believes in God, so). Nobody knows when a woman is going to get an abortion, nobody knows when a person is going to rape somebody.
Rape and abortion have been going around for quite some time now, but rape has been around longer. And for those who decide to say “Does that make it right?”; No, don’t be a smarta–.
We can’t control what people do. That’s it. They can be punished, sure, but seeing as how abortion is legal and rape isn’t, it’s kinda hard for a mother going through an unwanted pregnancy to be sentenced to prison for 25 years to life just because she may not be ready to have a child just yet, but enjoys having sex with her significant other (or others if she’s um, experienced? hah).

I see. So I take it you believe there should be no laws against rape? Are you an anarchist? Or do you believe that such laws are only useful because they act as a deterrant? Do you believe laws against abortion would not be a deterrant, reducing the number of abortions?

 

[infabilly]

BlindSheep:

You’ve cut me to the quick.

I wasn’t saying “indeed” to your username. :]

I never said rape was okay, nor did I say abortion was okay. I only said abortion was legal.
And no, I’m not an anarchist. I’m sorry you had to ask.
But, like I said, you’re all Catholic. I know you all view life as extremely sacred, whereas a woman who does not want to go through pregnancy just doesn’t care, because most women who get abortions aren’t Catholic or even very religious at all.
Choices choices.
Laws against abortion would just leave the more dangerous abortions that could kill the woman as well.

paramedicgirl: I wasn’t grossed out by it, I’ve watched a lot of videos about dissection and other stuff (on humans and animals). I wouldn’t scream and tell them to stop, but then I wouldn’t shrug it off either. I find the process of those type of things more interesting than gross.
And what if the woman doesn’t want to be cut open?

astegallrnc: You may not find an acceptible reason, but another woman may.

But really, like I said a couple of posts up, I’m done with this argument. I’m only on here to learn about Catholic beliefs (much like me talking to Muslims, Jews, Athiests, etc. about their beliefs because I’m only interested in learning about different kinds).
So I shouldn’t have let my curiousity get the best of me and come back to this forum.
A lot of you are getting angry and offended at my questions and what I’m saying, though I honestly didn’t intend for that to happen. I’m simply just asking, because I’m only curious and again, learning about different beliefs. I’m sorry that you guys thought I was trying to push your buttons (though I know it probably seemed like I was).
I’ve managed to find a different message board with an abortion topic, and they didn’t get ticked at me for questioning (then again, it isn’t a religious board). So it’s better to learn where the people won’t get so uppity at my questions.
Again, I’m done.

 

[astegallrnc]

You may not find an acceptible reason, but another woman may.

This was in response to your statement that “they don’t know the full story behind her abortion(s)”. My point is that the story behind it is not going to justify killing their child. I have over 10 years experience in women’s health care, which has included the area of abortion so I’ve heard many, many reasons.

I find it interesting and sad that just because abortion is socially acceptable and legal, it should just be accepted without question. As I said, there are cultures, people, etc. who believe female circumcision, killing a child who shames the family, slavery, the holocaust, etc. are acceptable. These things were legal or are legal in parts of this world. Do you think if it became legal in this country to kill a child who shames the family that those of us who disagree should just silently accept it? After all, I may not find an acceptable reason, but another person may.

Thank God that people fight for human rights!

I’m simply just asking, because I’m only curious and again, learning about different beliefs.

It has been stated that abortion is murder PERIOD! The reasons, circumstances, etc. surrounding the abortion do not change the fact that an innocent child has been murdered. There are no excpetions (STDs, rape, pregnancy complications, etc.). From a Catholic perspective, what do you still have questions about regarding abortion?

Why do we care? What about the woman who isn’t Catholic or even religious at all? Why do we make such a big deal out of it? Abortion is killing an innocent baby. Abortion is murder. A person can believe that killing a child for shaming the family is acceptable (religious, society, etc.) but I would be appalled? Wouldn’t you? Or would you accept it becasue another person really believed he or she did nothing wrong? Would that be a big deal? The unborn NEED our protection just as much as you or I.

 

[BlindSheep]

infabilly:

I wasn’t saying “indeed” to your username. :]

I never said rape was okay, nor did I say abortion was okay. I only said abortion was legal.
And no, I’m not an anarchist. I’m sorry you had to ask.
But, like I said, you’re all Catholic. I know you all view life as extremely sacred, whereas a woman who does not want to go through pregnancy just doesn’t care, because most women who get abortions aren’t Catholic or even very religious at all.
Choices choices.

One does not need to be religious to be opposed to killing innocent human beings.
So, if you found yourself in Nazi Germany, would you oppose the practice of exterminating the Jews? Or would you accept it because it was legal and because the SS “just don’t care” and didn’t believe what they were doing was wrong?
If you would oppose it anyway, than your insistance that we should not work to change the laws so as to defend the unborn is hypocritical. YOU may not believe it is wrong, but that doesn’t mean that we who do have no right to oppose it.
You liberals are always telling social conservatives we have no right to argue for, vote for, or otherwise promote our views simply because others disagree. Do you hold yourself to that standard? If you did, you wouldn’t be here arguing with us.

Laws against abortion would just leave the more dangerous abortions that could kill the woman as well.

They would also reduce the number of abortions. The evidence shows this, although logic alone should be enough as well. Look at all the people who say “it’s legal, so it must not be wrong”!
Whether illegal abortions would be more dangerous is not a great concern, when one considers abortion the slaughter of an innocent person. Allowing innocent people to be killed legally only to make the killing safer for the killer is completely illogical.

 

[MooCowSteph]

infabilly:

I never said rape was okay, nor did I say abortion was okay. I only said abortion was legal.

But you did say you’re “all for it”. Hmm…:ehh: And does this mean if abortion were no longer legal you’d stop supporting it, since the crux of your argument seems to be that since it’s legal, it’s OK?

infabilly:

I’m all for abortion, but if a woman is sexually active and not thinking about the consequences then she should keep the baby.