My girlfriend lied about virginity

[Xantippe]

Estevao said:

“Well, obviously I don’t know all the details, but it seems to me that when a person says “I didn’t know what I was doing” then they didn’t really do anything wrong if that’s the case, and then there is no sin and no repentance. But that’s false on the face of it because sexual immorality is a grave sin, and people know that it’s wrong, but they “suppress the truth in unrighteousness” as Romans 1:18 says.”

Eh–the problem with that is that outside Catholic World, there’s a very strong and influential tradition of “everything but” and technical virginity with regard to sex and there has been for a very long time (in the US, at least since the 1950s, in fact). Hence, a technical virgin may have engaged in the sort of stuff the OP’s girlfriend has, but believe that she is “saving herself for marriage.”

(The OP is a little unclear, so I’m assuming that what he means is that she hasn’t had completed intercourse.)

A well-developed theory of chastity is not really very common in the world today, and I don’t know that it really has ever been.

Really, how many of us (even those of us from good, Christian homes) got a detailed explanation of what is and is not acceptable with regard to chastity in the single state when we were growing up? I certainly didn’t.

“As another poster pointed out, if the sexes were reversed in this, I know people would be coming down hard on the man very fast and would be telling OP to ditch him. But when I come in and try ask OP some questions to get him to think about this, people seem to think that I’m casting aspersions on her or saying that OP shouldn’t forgive her. No what I’m saying is that OP needs to consider if this woman is trustworthy.”

He should consider if she’s trustworthy. She certainly does seem to have a problem with prudence and discretion–namely sharing WAY too much information. It’s more than enough to say, “I have committed sins against chastity with another person, but didn’t have completed intercourse.” More than that is Too Much Information. (But I realize she’s young, and she doesn’t really have anybody to give her good advice on this and the OP is probably the best-informed Catholic she knows.)

However, if the OP lets her go and insists on a girlfriend with a less checkered past, he has to be prepared for the possibility that he will never find that dream girl. If he’s up for that, that’s OK. It might be most prudent to move on, but not to insist on a virgin in future, as that may just mean that he gets a non-virgin liar, rather than a truthful non-virgin.

 

[Zzyzx_Road]

I agree this woman could still be a good wife. But the bar is now much higher because she exhibited a long track record of lying or otherwise withholding the truth about herself on a question that mattered to the OP. I said before in this thread that while sexual sin is grave, the dishonesty was the greater sin and I stand by that. It’s the dishonesty that bothers me far more than the sexual sin as I can’t envision a successful relationship when there’s no trust.

If she had confessed this to him up front when asked and she had not only been truly repentant for her sexual sin, but actually lived out that repentance, the OP could have taken the honesty and the repentance as signs that she could still be a good wife to him or he could have broken it off with her. But she took that choice away from him with her dishonesty. Today, because of that dishonesty, it’s going to be a lot harder for any man to view her as wife material regardless of how high his standard for chastity is. That trust lost is much harder to rebuild than it was to trust in the first place.

 

[Estevao]

Eh–the problem with that is that outside Catholic World, there’s a very strong and influential tradition of “everything but” and technical virginity with regard to sex and there has been for a very long time (in the US, at least since the 1950s, in fact). Hence, a technical virgin may have engaged in the sort of stuff the OP’s girlfriend has, but believe that she is “saving herself for marriage.”

(The OP is a little unclear, so I’m assuming that what he means is that she hasn’t had completed intercourse.)

A well-developed theory of chastity is not really very common in the world today, and I don’t know that it really has ever been.

Really, how many of us (even those of us from good, Christian homes) got a detailed explanation of what is and is not acceptable with regard to chastity in the single state when we were growing up? I certainly didn’t.

God’s word does not change and it applies everywhere and to every one, it has no expiry date. When it comes to grave sins, there is no “I didn’t know what I was doing” there is “I knew what I was doing was wrong but I made excuses and suppressed my conscience”.

Romans chapter 1, go read it folks.

 

[TheWarriorMonk]

He should consider if she’s trustworthy. She certainly does seem to have a problem with prudence and discretion–namely sharing WAY too much information. It’s more than enough to say, “I have committed sins against chastity with another person, but didn’t have completed intercourse.” More than that is Too Much Information. (But I realize she’s young, and she doesn’t really have anybody to give her good advice on this and the OP is probably the best-informed Catholic she knows.)

I’ll disagree on this point. Personally, I believe that someone that “shares way to much information” can be a good thing. It displays honesty and communication when faced with difficult issues, two issues that are essential elements of a marriage (or at least my concept of marriage). The only caveat is that the information revealed should be appropriate to where the couple is in the relationship. Not that I care…but I just don’t think people should spill their guts about the intimate personal details with people they don’t know that well, simply because the party listening might not handle it with care.

 

[thewanderer]

God’s word does not change and it applies everywhere and to every one, it has no expiry date. When it comes to grave sins, there is no “I didn’t know what I was doing” there is “I knew what I was doing was wrong but I made excuses and suppressed my conscience”.

Romans chapter 1, go read it folks.

The Catholic Church’s teachings on grave sin is quite different from this. It is possible to commit an act of grave matter without committing a grave sin due to lack of knowledge or consent. The Church even explicitly states in the CCC that masturbation is not always gravely sinful due to the circumstances which sometimes accompany it which can reduce the culpabiity to that of a venial sin. I’m sorry, but you are not in line with Catholic teaching on this matter.

 

[EasterJoy]

The Catholic Church’s teachings on grave sin is quite different from this. It is possible to commit an act of grave matter without committing a grave sin due to lack of knowledge or consent. The Church even explicitly states in the CCC that masturbation is not always gravely sinful due to the circumstances which sometimes accompany it which can reduce the culpabiity to that of a venial sin. I’m sorry, but you are not in line with Catholic teaching on this matter.

He was right in implying that hardness of heart is imputable, since it is not the same as invincible ignorance, but on the whole you are right. Culpability may be reduced by one’s interior state. Otherwise, why could we all not judge others? It is not as if we could not see whether they’d done something gravely wrong or not. We may not judge because we cannot read the hearts of others. (The truth is, most of us are too blind to read our own a great deal of the time!)

When the matter is grave, confess it. The farther it is put from any willingness to do it again, the better. If you confess where you were in fact not culpable or not gravely culpable, it is still good to renounce the act and put it far from you. Once you have been absolved and done your penance, though, do not obsess about it any longer. Give thanks to God for his goodness, and focus your mind on doing good things.

 

[EasterJoy]

EasterJoy;12053891:

YES, of course.

I wanted only to explain to him that the sexual issues should be discussed before the marriage in order to avoid crazy difficulties. In his case, the issues are linked to the sexual lies, to the female virginity and to some sexual practices.

If he decide to go further with her, he should be ready for this great talk. I hope the best for him and her.

I think it quite likely that a wise guide will suggest that the couple do just this, when the time is right.

I only meant that he is probably a bit overwhelmed with emotions to be at that point just yet. He has had quite a shock.

I would caution him, however, that part of his shock came from making assumptions about what frail humanity can fall to. If you start thinking, “I am not like other men” or “we are not like other couples,” you are vulnerable to both a fall and vulnerable to being lured into uncharitable arrogance. If the evil one gets you there, and then rushes you into a sin involving a grave matter–the arrogance gives openings to admit near occasions of sin that those who know they are as frail as the next person would probably avoid–he will quickly try to sell you on despair. Be ready for these tactics; they are as common as leaves on trees. It is not the initial fall that will do the most damage, but the frantic and sinful follies he will sell you on after you fall.

OP, learn from your girlfriend’s fall. Do not judge her for it, but rather instruct yourself not to repeat it, since you know yourself to be as frail as she.

 

[Xantippe]

Estevao said:

“God’s word does not change and it applies everywhere and to every one, it has no expiry date. When it comes to grave sins, there is no “I didn’t know what I was doing” there is “I knew what I was doing was wrong but I made excuses and suppressed my conscience”.”

A person who wants to know, “Is it OK to do XYZ?” (when XYZ is one of the activities the OP’s girlfriend engaged in) is not going to find the Bible very informative. (And thank goodness for that.)

Very few people have a well-tuned moral intuition on sex. They might have a feeling of unease or disgust about certain activities, but those feelings are an imperfect guide to morality. Even good, well-informed Catholics can disagree on various issues in sexual ethics–see for instance the raging arguments that we have on CAF about NFP.

The Warrior Monk said:

“I’ll disagree on this point. Personally, I believe that someone that “shares way to much information” can be a good thing. It displays honesty and communication when faced with difficult issues, two issues that are essential elements of a marriage (or at least my concept of marriage). The only caveat is that the information revealed should be appropriate to where the couple is in the relationship. Not that I care…but I just don’t think people should spill their guts about the intimate personal details with people they don’t know that well, simply because the party listening might not handle it with care.”

In the OP’s particular situation, I think it would have helped a lot had his girlfriend been less vivid and explicit in her descriptions. I think the Too Much Information is harming his relationship with her in a way that, “I was unchaste with another person but did not have completed intercourse” would not have.

And, as a matter of fact, one should avoid too-explicit talk of sexual activity in order to avoid accidentally stimulating one’s hearer (if the hearer is not your spouse).

But that’s me, a middle-aged lady speaking–I realize that over-sharing is much harder for younger people to avoid, especially today.

 

[thewanderer]

He was right in implying that hardness of heart is imputable, since it is not the same as invincible ignorance, but on the whole you are right. Culpability may be reduced by one’s interior state. Otherwise, why could we all not judge others? It is not as if we could not see whether they’d done something gravely wrong or not. We may not judge because we cannot read the hearts of others. (The truth is, most of us are too blind to read our own a great deal of the time!)

When the matter is grave, confess it. The farther it is put from any willingness to do it again, the better. If you confess where you were in fact not culpable or not gravely culpable, it is still good to renounce the act and put it far from you. Once you have been absolved and done your penance, though, do not obsess about it any longer. Give thanks to God for his goodness, and focus your mind on doing good things.

I of course did not mean to imply that hardness of heart was the same thing as invincible ignorance, I hope it did not sound as though that is what I meant!

 

[otjm]

Before you make any decisions, please pick up the two booklets “Pure Womanhood” and “Pure Manhood,” by Crystallina and Jason Evert.

chastityproject.com/products/category/booklets/

They’re quick reads and very inexpensive.

He was a virgin when they married, she was not. You will find both stories most helpful, especially hers.

Outstanding recommendation! I had forgotten about their booklets.

 

[EasterJoy]

I of course did not mean to imply that hardness of heart was the same thing as invincible ignorance, I hope it did not sound as though that is what I meant!

No, no, I did not mean that you did. I offered the clarification only because some whose consciences have not been formed on that point might think that you did. It is a common misconception, not to mention a common deception that the evil one encourages us to play on ourselves.

Again, once it is realized that something was wrong, then if you had any idea at the time that you ought to have asked someone whether it was permissible, repent, confess, get absolved, resolve to be wiser in the future, and get it over with. If you are so surprised to find it was wrong that you can say it did not even occur to you that a priest wouldn’t have told you to go right ahead, then it is enough to resolve to avoid the act in the future. If you had no clue you were doing a thing wrong, then you might be guilty of seriously failing to do the work to form your conscience on the matter. As for the sin itself, you do have to be aware that something is seriously wrong before you can seriously sin by doing it. (If you were told and chose not to believe what you were told, that could be hardness of heart. Confess that.)

 

[thewanderer]

No, no, I did not mean that you did. I offered the clarification only because some whose consciences have not been formed on that point might think that you did. It is a common misconception, not to mention a common deception that the evil one encourages us to play on ourselves.

Again, once it is realized that something was wrong, then if you had any idea at the time that you ought to have asked someone whether it was permissible, repent, confess, get absolved, resolve to be wiser in the future, and get it over with. If you are so surprised to find it was wrong that you can say it did not even occur to you that a priest wouldn’t have told you to go right ahead, then it is enough to resolve to avoid the act in the future. If you had no clue you were doing a thing wrong, then you might be guilty of seriously failing to do the work to form your conscience on the matter. As for the sin itself, you do have to be aware that something is seriously wrong before you can seriously sin by doing it. (If you were told and chose not to believe what you were told, that could be hardness of heart. Confess that.)

 

[aachristopher]

Phoenix1950.

The first thing I would say is that forgiveness is not about letting the other person off the hook. It’s about allowing youself off the hook so that you are not haunted by this throughout your life.

Much of what you say was reflected in my own life. My girlfried lied to me about her past and over time I realised she was a very different person to the one whom she’d led me to believe. In truth you are utterly torn and devastated. You love this girl, but she had hurt you so, so deeply and shattered your whole expectation of who she was.

I forgave my girlfriend, we stayed together, got married, had children and had a very good life for many years. However her past caught up with her, and after a difficult time in her life she cyber-cheated. Eventually, despite trying to make it work, she left - but recently came back with even more emotional baggage as she’d had a sexual relationship with a man duing our 3 month separation (she got together with hime within 2 weeks of leaving) - and this is impacting us trying to heal and reconcile. Sexual sin can have far reaching impact.

In retrospect, I wish I had walked away from her, when she was my girlfriend, when I first dicovered how untruthful she had been, and was using me as the clean-leaving, safe-bet man that she could rely on for love and tenderness, but without really having the same emotions towards me.

Seriously. Forgive her, give her a final loving kiss on her forehead, and then walk away from her. Un-bond from this woman. She cannot give you what your heart was yearning for when you got together with her. She may not be a nasty, toxic person but she has hurt you nevertheless - and you don’t really know how far she went with this man - despite what she has told you. You don’t want to be married with children to her before you realize what a mistake you’ve made. You deserver better. You, deserve honesty and transparency and you did not get that.

God Bless.

 

[TheWarriorMonk]

Much of what you say was reflected in my own life. My girlfried lied to me about her past and over time I realised she was a very different person to the one whom she’d led me to believe. In truth you are utterly torn and devastated. You love this girl, but she had hurt you so, so deeply and shattered your whole expectation of who she was.

My experience was just the opposite, hence the reason I think the willful sharing of all the gory details is great…that the only bright point I see with regard to the OP. My wife shared everything…and I mean everything…with me prior to marriage. Quite frankly, I can’t believe that she shared as much information as she did. But I know exactly who she is, what her faults were, how she regrets them, and how she corrected them years ago. Honestly and communication is everything in a marriage, and she displayed those characteristics in a very dramatic way.

Seriously. Forgive her, give her a final loving kiss on her forehead, and then walk away from her. Un-bond from this woman.

I would do the same thing, but others are free to do as they choose. For me, there are just so many people out there looking for a spouse without such issues, so I don’t see the necessity of dealing with such issues in a potential spouse.

 

[AussieTrish]

I wonder, do the OP and did aachristopher love the person they thought the girl was, but don’t know or love the person she really is? Is it not actually her he loves, but just an idea of who he thought she is/was. Perhaps most marriages are like this? Oh, if many people didn’t get married what a kinder world it could be?

Alone, so many are desperate to find someone to marry. They don’t realize how blessed they may be in not being married, because so many marriages are desperate, with ongoing pain and* loneliness*. Sure, some are happy, or relatively happy, but so many are just mostly ‘endurance’ and one or both partners is desperately lonely and trapped.
I think that all prospective marriage partners need to read the threads in Family Living for at least six months before committing! :bighanky: They might at least learn some of the problems to look out for before marriage, how to recognize, and then find the wisdom to reconsider their relationship. When children come into the mix, any problems multiply and escalate. No, we can’t change others, and papering over cracks does not work for long.

I do implore God to find a way to make us wise in our choices, for the sake of our children and the spouses.

 

[otjm]

what really hurts me is that she knows how much purity means to me,this happened about a year before we started dating and at the time were getting somehow romantic so I feel betrayed…and everything I thought I knew about her in this 4 years and my whole relationship was a LIE!!!

Well, actually, no, a whole lot of your relationship with her was the truth. There was a part of your relationship that was not truthful, but only part of it. Understanding that you have been hurt, it is still somewhat of an over reaction.

I felt disgusted by her but still didn’t want my hot head and emotions to control me…

Not an abnormal reaction; good that you recognized it.

I don’t know what to do…I hope I made a right decision by trying to forgive her

I will try to give you some questions for you to ponder. Some of them are personal enough I don’t want you answering here. You need to answer for you, not for us.

You speak a good deal about purity (and that is good). What about your past. Have you masturbated? Looked at pornography in magazines or internet or movies? Have you dated girls because they were “hot”? Made out? (OK, I am old fashioned). Touched them sexually through their clothes? Under their clothes? Petted them to orgasm? Petted them to your own? All of these are sexual sins (as were her acts); but it is easy to say “I want my wife to be pure” and slough over the fact that purity in the past may have been an issue on both sides.

If any of these are true, then you are holding her to a double standard - you keep your past sexual history private, but she is condemned for hers. And if so, then you need to have a long long talk with yourself about what standards are right and what are wrong.

How would you react, if it had not been her boyfriend, but instead she had been married, had sexual relations with her husband, and he had been killed in a car accident or, say, in Iraq? And she had not told you about that marriage in the beginning?

Had you been giving her signals, perhaps without realizing it, that purity was such a high standard, and she kept this from you because she wanted to start over, with you, in the right fashion?

There is an old adage (and like all old adages, there is truth in it, while it may not be absolutely true), and that is that men give love to get sex, and women give sex to get love. I bring this up particularly because when you look at her sexual activity, you are bound to judge it from a male standpoint. And that standpoint is that when males seek sexual intercourse outside marriage, it is not about setting up a permanent relationship; it is about orgasm.

However, when women engage in intercourse outside marriage, it is all too often a) that the male is the instigator, and b) that she is trying to hold on to a guy (never mind that it is the wrong way - we are discussing motivation). Are you judging her by your (male, not you specifically) motivations towards sex outside marriage?

Go read the following: Isaiah 38:17 (You have cast all my sins behind your back); Isaiah 43:25 (I am the one who wipes out your transgressions for My own sake. And I will not remember your sins.) Micah 7:19 (You will cast all their sins into the depth of the sea.)
If God does this; if through reconciliation, she becomes pure; then what are you called to in terms or recognizing this, and doing likewise? Or, when you go to reconciliation are you forgiven, but somehow the sin lingers?

No, she will not become a virgin literally, but do you believe that reconciliation renders her pure? And if so, what are you called to do?

None of this is to say that your reaction was anything but normal. Trust is absolutely critical in a marriage.

She has trusted you (unwisely, perhaps) with the truth of her history.

But for the moment, let’s change the story a bit. She loves you, you love her; she realizes, without telling you her past, that it was wrong and goes to reconciliation. And then she does not tell you.

Does she have a duty to do so? If God has cast her sins behind His back, why would she have a duty to tell you?

And have you told her of any mortal sins (sexual or otherwise) you have committed in the past? Why would you have any duty to do so, if you had confessed them and God had cast them behind His back?

The long and the short of this is that you will have to mature a good bit if there is going to be a long term relationship (i.e. marriage) with her. I say that, because you have to do more than forgive her; you have to put this behind your back; you have to cast this into the sea. That is another way of saying that you have to be man enough that this is something that in the worst battle you have with her, the angriest you become, you will never, ever bring this up to her as a weapon.

Which is why I asked the questions in the beginning, about any sexual sins you may have done. If you have sought reconciliation for them, then God has done so, and so I don’t want to hear about them. And if God has done so, she does not need to hear about them either. It is an absolutely false understanding of honesty to believe we need to dredge up our past to a future spouse.

God bless you for having the questions. Your reaction is very normal. What you do from here on out will depend on what the word “forgive” means to you.

 

[pianistclare]

Well, actually, no, a whole lot of your relationship with her was the truth. There was a part of your relationship that was not truthful, but only part of it. Understanding that you have been hurt, it is still somewhat of an over reaction.

Not an abnormal reaction; good that you recognized it.

I will try to give you some questions for you to ponder. Some of them are personal enough I don’t want you answering here. You need to answer for you, not for us.

You speak a good deal about purity (and that is good). What about your past. Have you masturbated? Looked at pornography in magazines or internet or movies? Have you dated girls because they were “hot”? Made out? (OK, I am old fashioned). Touched them sexually through their clothes? Under their clothes? Petted them to orgasm? Petted them to your own? All of these are sexual sins (as were her acts); but it is easy to say “I want my wife to be pure” and slough over the fact that purity in the past may have been an issue on both sides.

If any of these are true, then you are holding her to a double standard - you keep your past sexual history private, but she is condemned for hers. And if so, then you need to have a long long talk with yourself about what standards are right and what are wrong.

How would you react, if it had not been her boyfriend, but instead she had been married, had sexual relations with her husband, and he had been killed in a car accident or, say, in Iraq? And she had not told you about that marriage in the beginning?

Had you been giving her signals, perhaps without realizing it, that purity was such a high standard, and she kept this from you because she wanted to start over, with you, in the right fashion?

There is an old adage (and like all old adages, there is truth in it, while it may not be absolutely true), and that is that men give love to get sex, and women give sex to get love. I bring this up particularly because when you look at her sexual activity, you are bound to judge it from a male standpoint. And that standpoint is that when males seek sexual intercourse outside marriage, it is not about setting up a permanent relationship; it is about orgasm.

However, when women engage in intercourse outside marriage, it is all too often a) that the male is the instigator, and b) that she is trying to hold on to a guy (never mind that it is the wrong way - we are discussing motivation). Are you judging her by your (male, not you specifically) motivations towards sex outside marriage?

Go read the following: Isaiah 38:17 (You have cast all my sins behind your back); Isaiah 43:25 (I am the one who wipes out your transgressions for My own sake. And I will not remember your sins.) Micah 7:19 (You will cast all their sins into the depth of the sea.)
If God does this; if through reconciliation, she becomes pure; then what are you called to in terms or recognizing this, and doing likewise? Or, when you go to reconciliation are you forgiven, but somehow the sin lingers?

No, she will not become a virgin literally, but do you believe that reconciliation renders her pure? And if so, what are you called to do?

None of this is to say that your reaction was anything but normal. Trust is absolutely critical in a marriage.

She has trusted you (unwisely, perhaps) with the truth of her history.

But for the moment, let’s change the story a bit. She loves you, you love her; she realizes, without telling you her past, that it was wrong and goes to reconciliation. And then she does not tell you.

Does she have a duty to do so? If God has cast her sins behind His back, why would she have a duty to tell you?

And have you told her of any mortal sins (sexual or otherwise) you have committed in the past? Why would you have any duty to do so, if you had confessed them and God had cast them behind His back?

The long and the short of this is that you will have to mature a good bit if there is going to be a long term relationship (i.e. marriage) with her. I say that, because you have to do more than forgive her; you have to put this behind your back; you have to cast this into the sea. That is another way of saying that you have to be man enough that this is something that in the worst battle you have with her, the angriest you become, you will never, ever bring this up to her as a weapon.

Which is why I asked the questions in the beginning, about any sexual sins you may have done. If you have sought reconciliation for them, then God has done so, and so I don’t want to hear about them. And if God has done so, she does not need to hear about them either. It is an absolutely false understanding of honesty to believe we need to dredge up our past to a future spouse.

God bless you for having the questions. Your reaction is very normal. What you do from here on out will depend on what the word “forgive” means to you.

All of the above and the recommendations of Aussie Trish and Miserissima. Get the Evert books. Don’t do anything rash. But whatever you do, and which ever way you decide to proceed. at the very least, FORGIVE. You will be a better man for it.
Peace.

 

[theplummer]

I feel I have something to add to this conversation, though I fear it’s not going to be very palatable for many here. So much so that I hope I don’t get banned for the inconvenient truth that I’ve come to realize through my own experiences.

I believe the OP (as well as EVERY unmarried person, Catholic or not) should take into consideration before choosing to enter into the institution of marriage.

Realize that the federal and state government has co-opted the word “marriage” and has seized it for their own purposes, redefined its meaning, and claims absolute authority over it.

With the current model of No Fault Divorce, that effectively reduces the definition of marriage to be nothing more than a “status” for tax purposes, and will seize control over your marriage, as well as any fruits of that union, if one party of the marriage would ever chose to involve the state do do so, you WILL be subject to letting a “man” to tear asunder what God has joined together.

Now one should trust their partner to never do such a thing, however, with the current model of unfairness toward men, in particular, being such an unfair arena, one should question if one wants to potentially marter themselves. One must always be aware of the ability for the evil one to invade even the purest of heart and cause one to fall.

I believe that women have been given a great disadvantage here as they must constantly not fall prey to the trappings of the culture and the absolute power that the cultural marxizm has given them. Remember, power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely.

I truly wish that Holy Mother Church would recognize this fact and insist that the government get out of the undeserved authority that the state claims and fight to regain our right to practice our religion and not be subject to such an unholy tyrannical, oppressive government.

Maybe the Church should refuse to participate in marriage and subsequent fruits of the union until we regain OUR definition of marriage. Kind of a “hunger strike” if you will.

 

[Xantippe]

theplummer,

How about you start your own thread?

If you have something to say about the OP’s particular situation, feel free, but you seem to be going off on a tangent. You’ll get more and better discussion of your points if it occurs under a subject heading that reflects your ideas.

 

[Gia_B]

Maybe the Church should refuse to participate in marriage and subsequent fruits of the union until we regain OUR definition of marriage. Kind of a “hunger strike” if you will.

That is terrible, terrible advise. The reason why the Church opposes divorce and gay marriage is because they are destructive to the family. Wouldn’t not having Catholic marriages (and therefore no legitimate Catholic families) be destructive to the family?