My marriage: disillusioned from day one

[Augusta_Sans]

It sounds like you have issues, you go in to a marriage with a man you don’t want to kiss or have sex with, and to add to that you’re constantly fighting and have spats over money.

One must wonder whether you were drugged when you got married.

Uhmm… I think you’re in the wrong thread. My husband and I are not “constantly fighting” (in fact, we have hardly ever fought about anything ever) and we have never had a “spat” over money (in fact, our healthy and consistent attitude toward money and possessions is one of the great strengths of our relationship).

 

[Augusta_Sans]

jkiernan56, thank you for both of your thoughtful posts. About marriage retreats / books: are there any retreats or books that focus on physical intimacy, and not on communication? We both really feel that we’re not wanting in the communication department and the things that we have done that focus on communication (i.e. counseling) actually hurt rather than helped because we “aced” those skills and still “fail” at sexual attraction.

About your general assessment of our relationship: I appreciate it, I think that you’re spot-on. More importantly, you made me think about my marriage in a different way. Two years ago I would have rejoiced to hear that annulment might be possible for us. Today, I read your post and thought to myself: I don’t WANT an annulment. I don’t WANT the Church to officially say that my marriage was never real, and that the time I spent with this man wasn’t “sacred” or protected by a legitimate sacrament of marriage.

This gut reaction–to defend my marriage against annulment–is the most JOYFUL (!!!) emotion I have felt toward my marriage in a long time. THANK YOU for that!!!

 

[ChelseaRae]

Augusta I have some experience from a similar situation that I could share with you.

I’d rather not post about it here because of the nature of it and out of respect for my husband but if you would like to chat over pm I would be happy to share with you what worked for me.

 

[humble_maid]

I always love returning to this forum to see the users’ encouragement and suggestions. It’s heartening to know that others have survived what I’m struggling with!

humble maid: “Married saints” made me giggle, because that’s what it feels like–like a celibiate monk and a celibate nun who are best friends. If you’ve been following this thread, you’ll know that I do love him in a brotherly way, but not on other levels.

A handful of people here say “just do it!” You’re effectively telling me to LIE to my husband–ruining the one positive element in our marriage: honesty and respect–for the sake of a sexual experience where I squeeze my eyes shut and pretend I’m enjoying it. Is lying to my husband (“yes, I want to have sex with you”) really the first step in saving the marriage?

Dear sister,

If indeed you have only a brotherly love for your husband, how then may I asked did you marry him? Surely one knows that if you love a man as a brother it will be unlikely to change even after marriage. I beg your pardon but you did say you had other relationships in which you experienced intimacy and thus you must be aware of the inside and outs of relationships especially when it comes to attraction. Furthermore it is obvious that sex is not the issue but your feelings towards your husband. You say you love him yet you cannot share yourself with him. Surely, I understand you take the time to be with him and that you are respectful and caring towards eachother but what was it that made you choose him to be your partner in life? If you can remeber the reason then maybe that’s where the answer lies.

Besides I am not asking you to lie to him but to try to understand that a relationship needs work on all levels. Sometimes people may have a great chemistry and suddenly that changes when the babies come in; then it can come back or not. So you see you are not the only one with this problem. I have known couples in which the women for the most part did not enjoy the intimacy but were devoted nonetheless to their husbands. Is this wrong or right? Only the persons involved know.

As I said let Jesus guide your path. When I learned to put Him first, then things got easier to deal with; perhaps the underlying issue is still there but life becomes fuller with the knowledge of faith and God.

God Bless:heaven:

 

[Augusta_Sans]

If indeed you have only a brotherly love for your husband, how then may I asked did you marry him? … If you can remeber the reason then maybe that’s where the answer lies.

I believe my earlier posts explain that this was my first non-sexual relationship as an adult. I thought that the “in love” feelings that were missing would come once we were able to be intimate. I discussed this lack of sexual interest to both my fiance and my priest before the wedding.

Why did I marry him? For the same reasons that I want to try to make the marriage work, despite its shortcomings:

• We have the same vision for the future (same attitude toward money, family, lifestyle, etc.)
• We are “best friends.”
• We are completely honest with each other, for better or for worse.
• We understand each other on a deeper level, and we know how to celebrate together and console each other.
• We have a wonderful partnership, with no resentment or jealousy toward each other.
• He feels love for me, every single day without condition. (I don’t “feel” love for him 24/7–I am realizing that for me, I need to “choose” to love him to make the marriage work, and am struggling with whether or not I’ll ever “feel” the love that I “choose” to give.)
• He is solution-oriented. Rather than focusing on the pain that my lack of affection is causing him, he is very focused on what we can each do to solve the problem so I can feel confident in our marriage again.
• He makes me his #1 priority, no matter what. He would rather spend time with me than his friends or family.
• He is attractive to me! He’s “tall dark and handsome,” is successful in his career.
• He is the only person that I can truly “be myself” with, whether that’s serious, thoughtful, silly, etc. He feels the same way about me, and it’s fun to witness my conservative reserved husband be goofy when we’re alone.
• We enjoy the same activities–and the activities that I enjoy, he quickly adopts and learns to love. He loves my friends and frequently asks if we can get together with them.
• He is incredibly kind to me. My monthly cycle is crazy (when not on hormonal birth control) and during my periods of depression, he is patient and supportive.
• My family loves him, and he loves my family. He is courteous and generous toward them, and doesn’t seem to notice their annoying traits at all.
• He LOVES children and has been ready to start a family since the wedding night. My biological clock kicked in over the past year and his family-man attitude has become even more attractive.

I could go ON and ON. Writing this list was fun for me, and this conversation with all of you has been good for me (at times, truly JOYFUL!) I’ll continue to pop in here with updates and to converse with all of you.

I just want to emphasize my gratitude: your encouragement and frank discussion/questions are really helping me get through this, and even though I’m not through the woods, you’re helping me remember what motivates me to push through the frustration and make my marriage work.

(A side note: it has been therapeutic talking about my marriage with people who recognize that just because we are civilly divorced does not mean the sacrament of marriage is null and void. My non-Catholic friends do not understand why I still feel tied to him and encourage me to “move on” and find another fish in the sea. I do think that my divorce was premature, but it’s not really binding–we could walk into a court house today and get remarried in 20 minutes for $30.)

 

[Liberanosamalo]

LOL. If you don’t want him, I’ll take him.

SOOOO much to work with here. Pray for the gift of emotional love and attraction for this man. Don’t give up!

 

[newbetx]

Part 1 of 2

An update: It was our anniversary last week, so we went on a date to see my favorite play (which he loved.) Tonight we met one of my friends (that he hadn’t met yet) for dinner. I’m still not feeling any sexual interest, but we’re going to keep going on dates for awhile and see what happens.

Do you do fun things he likes and with his friends? Or is it a “he just wants to be with you” type thing?

A couple people have asked (1) how my husband feels about me and the relationship and (2) how I feel about non-sexual physical intimacy with him.

(1) He is in love with me. Is willing to do whatever it takes to make me happy. Unfortunately, I think that part of our problem is that he has been willing to abstain from sex because he thinks that “forcing” it on me would make me unhappy. I think early on I would have appreciate the encouragement and felt flattered by a little insistence. Now, we’re very far removed from that level of intimacy and I think it will take time before I’m ready for sex. Please bear in mind we’ve been living separately and socializing as “just friends” for two years now.

(2) I love his hugs. Whenever he hugs me, I feel so protected and safe–a sentiment I express more often than not. His kisses aren’t bad sloppy or revolting in anyway, but they feel more like flesh rubbing on flesh than an intimate moment.

I do remember a time when we were physically intimate and when I was very lustful toward him–back when we first started dating. I’ve never experienced “sparks” or “butterflies” or anything like that, but perhaps that’s because he’s always made me feel so safe.

I can tell you, a lot of people feel this way.

Another month has gone by, so I’m here with another update.

We continue to “date.” We go out to dinner together and spend quiet nights snuggled on the couch watching (and then discussing) our favorite shows. We kiss occasionally. We talk quite a bit about future plans together, which is something we hadn’t been doing in awhile.

…but I just can’t seem to get excited about the present. There is absolutely no sexual energy on my end. I want it so badly, but when we kiss or snuggle, I feel absolutely nothing. It’s heartbreaking. I feel so incredibly lonely and I continue to feel like a failure in my relationship.

I’ll will keep trying, of course, but every month feels like a year of failure.

Matthew Kelly is quite an inspirational speaker. You should look into his stuff. One story he tells is of a man that discovers “love is a choice.” And also, “Love isn’t something you feel, it’s something you do.” You, too, can choose to love.

 

[newbetx]

Part 2
I think you want to love, but you are just wanting some feeling you don’t have to take over and make it happen. It may not work that way.
I’m not a perfect husband or a great lover. Nor am I very attractive. But my wife chooses to love me, anyway.

jkiernan56, thank you for both of your thoughtful posts. About marriage retreats / books: are there any retreats or books that focus on physical intimacy, and not on communication? We both really feel that we’re not wanting in the communication department and the things that we have done that focus on communication (i.e. counseling) actually hurt rather than helped because we “aced” those skills and still “fail” at sexual attraction.

About your general assessment of our relationship: I appreciate it, I think that you’re spot-on. More importantly, you made me think about my marriage in a different way. Two years ago I would have rejoiced to hear that annulment might be possible for us. Today, I read your post and thought to myself: I don’t WANT an annulment. I don’t WANT the Church to officially say that my marriage was never real, and that the time I spent with this man wasn’t “sacred” or protected by a legitimate sacrament of marriage.

This gut reaction–to defend my marriage against annulment–is the most JOYFUL (!!!) emotion I have felt toward my marriage in a long time. THANK YOU for that!!!

Keep fighting. SOMETHING is there. You know it. Go find it!

I believe my earlier posts explain that this was my first non-sexual relationship as an adult. I thought that the “in love” feelings that were missing would come once we were able to be intimate. I discussed this lack of sexual interest to both my fiance and my priest before the wedding.

Why did I marry him? For the same reasons that I want to try to make the marriage work, despite its shortcomings:

• We have the same vision for the future (same attitude toward money, family, lifestyle, etc.)
• We are “best friends.”
• We are completely honest with each other, for better or for worse.
• We understand each other on a deeper level, and we know how to celebrate together and console each other.
• We have a wonderful partnership, with no resentment or jealousy toward each other.
• He feels love for me, every single day without condition. (I don’t “feel” love for him 24/7–I am realizing that for me, I need to “choose” to love him to make the marriage work, and am struggling with whether or not I’ll ever “feel” the love that I “choose” to give.)
• He is solution-oriented. Rather than focusing on the pain that my lack of affection is causing him, he is very focused on what we can each do to solve the problem so I can feel confident in our marriage again.
• He makes me his #1 priority, no matter what. He would rather spend time with me than his friends or family.
• He is attractive to me! He’s “tall dark and handsome,” is successful in his career.
• He is the only person that I can truly “be myself” with, whether that’s serious, thoughtful, silly, etc. He feels the same way about me, and it’s fun to witness my conservative reserved husband be goofy when we’re alone.
• We enjoy the same activities–and the activities that I enjoy, he quickly adopts and learns to love. He loves my friends and frequently asks if we can get together with them.
• He is incredibly kind to me. My monthly cycle is crazy (when not on hormonal birth control) and during my periods of depression, he is patient and supportive.
• My family loves him, and he loves my family. He is courteous and generous toward them, and doesn’t seem to notice their annoying traits at all.
• He LOVES children and has been ready to start a family since the wedding night. My biological clock kicked in over the past year and his family-man attitude has become even more attractive.

I could go ON and ON. Writing this list was fun for me, and this conversation with all of you has been good for me (at times, truly JOYFUL!) I’ll continue to pop in here with updates and to converse with all of you.

I just want to emphasize my gratitude: your encouragement and frank discussion/questions are really helping me get through this, and even though I’m not through the woods, you’re helping me remember what motivates me to push through the frustration and make my marriage work.

I’ve been married a total of 27 years now. Twice. A person’s expectations that are either imagined or never fulfilled can cause great grief in a relationship. Typically these are managed by improving communication which is why we keep suggesting it. However, from your later posts, I think you stated the problem. You want something from him that he can’t give you.

It would be grossly unfair of me to expect something from my spouse that she can not give me. It is improper for me to expect something from her that I received in previous relationships. I can not expect my wife to “give me that spark” that I had with a previous spouse or girlfriend because she isn’t either of them. We have to start anew. As if the past did not exist. If you take the perspective that he is your “Adam” and you his “Eve” you may find you can become quite happy. I again encourage you to take a look at TOB. As Jesus said, “In the beginning, it was not so.” You can go back to the one on one relationship if you so choose because “Love is a choice.”

I had to make such a choice a few years ago. Continue on the road to divorce or change my perspective of what marriage is. After 3 years now, things are very much better. If you do decide to start a family with this guy, always remember, he’s #1 (kids come and go) and we have the power to choose how to live and how to love one another.

Peace to you both.

 

[jkiernan56]

jkiernan56, thank you for both of your thoughtful posts. About marriage retreats / books: are there any retreats or books that focus on physical intimacy, and not on communication?

Augusta Sans,

I’m mostly Irish and we have an old saying that goes “you can’t put in what God left out”. I know exactly what you are going through because I have gone through it myself.

It was wrong for your husband to promise you something so wrong for him to promise you in the first place. You did not have sexual attraction for him before marriage and it did not come after getting married. He was a good salesman and you bought what he was selling. Unfortunately what you bought was not the truth. My heart and prayers go out to you.

Some of the responses to your situation make me physically sick.

 

[humble_maid]

Augusta Sans,

I’m mostly Irish and we have an old saying that goes “you can’t put in what God left out”. I know exactly what you are going through because I have gone through it myself.

It was wrong for your husband to promise you something so wrong for him to promise you in the first place. You did not have sexual attraction for him before marriage and it did not come after getting married. He was a good salesman and you bought what he was selling. Unfortunately what you bought was not the truth. My heart and prayers go out to you.

Some of the responses to your situation make me physically sick.

I am sorry you feel that way. God Bless.

 

[humble_maid]

Dear sister Augusta,

Do you believe in anyway that your husband manipulated you into marrying him? Was the choice completely your own and were you completely aware that you were marrying for certain reasons, albeit the chemistry was missing?

Please don’t think I am asking this to trap you but to allow you to really search within and reveal the truth. Sometimes we believe one thing and through time we come to realize otherwise.

 

[jkiernan56]

I am sorry you feel that way. God Bless.

And you as well …

 

[peary]

I’m not sure what information to provide or where to begin, so I will return to this thread frequently to answer any follow-up questions.

I can count the number of times my husband and I have fought the past five years on one hand. We’ve always agreed on almost everything–money, scheduling, and plans for our future. The problem we encountered in our marriage was a lack of physical intimacy. This resulted in my feeling disillusioned before we even returned from our honeymoon. I had never enjoyed kissing him and we didn’t seem to “click” sexually. I can also count the number of times we have had sex on one hand.

After several years, I moved out. We are now legally divorced (though we did not seek annulment and are still married in the eyes of the Church). He still loves me and wants a life with me. I’m unsure of what I want, though I know that “on paper” renewing our marriage would be a wise move.

I don’t even know what I’m asking or where I’m going with this, but I certainly would appreciate anyone’s insight, probing questions, suggestions, etc.

Have both of you ever seen a Christian Catholic marriage counselor?

 

[humble_maid]

And you as well …

I would like to retort with sarcasm but I will refrain. You accuse a man of something horrible as to have manipulated someone into marrying him. If this is the case Augusta should say so and the matter would take a different turn of events. Please review her post #100 in her response to your observation of her situation.

Augusta:About your general assessment of our relationship: I appreciate it, I think that you’re spot-on. More importantly, you made me think about my marriage in a different way. Two years ago I would have rejoiced to hear that annulment might be possible for us. Today, I read your post and thought to myself: I don’t WANT an annulment. I don’t WANT the Church to officially say that my marriage was never real, and that the time I spent with this man wasn’t “sacred” or protected by a legitimate sacrament of marriage.

This gut reaction–to defend my marriage against annulment–is the most JOYFUL (!!!) emotion I have felt toward my marriage in a long time. THANK YOU for that!!

You lead her to believe that she was an innocent victim and really was wronged. From my understanding she went into this wide-eyed and she wants earnestly to save her marriage. If she decides to leave him, this man is willing to live a celibate life because of his beliefs. Now whether this is true or not it is up to her to decide; she must rely on her new faith with the church, and most of all with the Lord Himself. I am confident if she prays He will answer.

Bitterness is a hard pill to swallow. Don’t feel sorry for me. My marriage is thriving only because the Lord guides me. Humans can be very fickle. Truth is in Him. And has for your irish saying, what God left out, He can put in. That’s my (name removed by moderator)ut like or not.

God Bless

 

[humble_maid]

Have both of you ever seen a Christian Catholic marriage counselor?

They have. Communication apparently is not their problem but the sexual attraction.

 

[humble_maid]

Part 2
I think you want to love, but you are just wanting some feeling you don’t have to take over and make it happen. It may not work that way.
I’m not a perfect husband or a great lover. Nor am I very attractive. But my wife chooses to love me, anyway.

Keep fighting. SOMETHING is there. You know it. Go find it!

I’ve been married a total of 27 years now. Twice. A person’s expectations that are either imagined or never fulfilled can cause great grief in a relationship. Typically these are managed by improving communication which is why we keep suggesting it. However, from your later posts, I think you stated the problem. You want something from him that he can’t give you.

It would be grossly unfair of me to expect something from my spouse that she can not give me. It is improper for me to expect something from her that I received in previous relationships. I can not expect my wife to “give me that spark” that I had with a previous spouse or girlfriend because she isn’t either of them. We have to start anew. As if the past did not exist. If you take the perspective that he is your “Adam” and you his “Eve” you may find you can become quite happy. I again encourage you to take a look at TOB. As Jesus said, “In the beginning, it was not so.” You can go back to the one on one relationship if you so choose because “Love is a choice.”

I had to make such a choice a few years ago. Continue on the road to divorce or change my perspective of what marriage is. After 3 years now, things are very much better. If you do decide to start a family with this guy, always remember, he’s #1 (kids come and go) and we have the power to choose how to live and how to love one another.

Peace to you both.

Sounds like you have been through alot. At some point in our lives I think many of us have to choose rather than ‘it’ coming to us naturally. In a catholic perspective you gave sound advice; but too often we hear “follow your heart”. If this were true then why do more than 50% of marriages end up in divorce? Obviously our heart doesn’t always follow truth but its own desires or lack of it.

 

[jkiernan56]

I would like to retort with sarcasm but I will refrain. You accuse a man of something horrible as to have manipulated someone into marrying him. If this is the case Augusta should say so and the matter would take a different turn of events. Please review her post #100 in her response to your observation of her situation.

Augusta:About your general assessment of our relationship: I appreciate it, I think that you’re spot-on. More importantly, you made me think about my marriage in a different way. Two years ago I would have rejoiced to hear that annulment might be possible for us. Today, I read your post and thought to myself: I don’t WANT an annulment. I don’t WANT the Church to officially say that my marriage was never real, and that the time I spent with this man wasn’t “sacred” or protected by a legitimate sacrament of marriage.

This gut reaction–to defend my marriage against annulment–is the most JOYFUL (!!!) emotion I have felt toward my marriage in a long time. THANK YOU for that!!

You lead her to believe that she was an innocent victim and really was wronged. From my understanding she went into this wide-eyed and she wants earnestly to save her marriage. If she decides to leave him, this man is willing to live a celibate life because of his beliefs. Now whether this is true or not it is up to her to decide; she must rely on her new faith with the church, and most of all with the Lord Himself. I am confident if she prays He will answer.

Bitterness is a hard pill to swallow. Don’t feel sorry for me. My marriage is thriving only because the Lord guides me. Humans can be very fickle. Truth is in Him. And has for your irish saying, what God left out, He can put in. That’s my (name removed by moderator)ut like or not.

God Bless

I call a spade a spade … sorry … its the Irish in me. Yes you are right that I believe her husband “sold” her something he had no right to promise her … and for whatever reason(s) … most likely immaturity … she “bought” what he was selling …

You say what God left out He can put in? I totally agree. God could in an instant stop thinking of the universe and it would no longer exist too. But you act on the premise that the sexual attraction is something God will “put in” (no pun intended by the way) … if she just “works at it” (again no pun intended) … I honestly think she needs to talk to a cannon lawyer … to see whether according to Catholic Church teaching and the laws of the Church - whether or not the Sacrament was truly given to each other. Psychological factors are one of the links in the chain the Church considers … among others.

By the way, I am NOT saying that the Sacrament did not take place. That is for those with the proper training and responsibility in the Church to determine. I am just saying it would be worth a trip for her to go see a cannon lawyer and talk about this. Is that something you oppose? Or should she just continue to “work at it” until God finally “puts in” what is not there?

Peace and blessings …

 

[Augusta_Sans]

Wow, lot’s of responses to this topic today! I’ll try to respond to everyone!

ChelseaRae, I sent you a private message. Hope to hear back from you!

Liberanosamalo, your response made me laugh! He really is a catch, which is why I am so motivated to work through this, rather than throw in the towel. I agree that my situation could always use more prayer!

newbetx, we do fun things that he likes, but don’t spend much time with his friends. His friends aren’t fond of me, in part because they see me as the enemy because of the divorce, and in part because I just don’t really fit in with them. His friends all loved me, but things went downhill when each of them married women who expressed animosity toward me and made me feel unwelcome. Since the divorce he has started forming new friendships, and those new friends and their wives really like me so I’m hopeful that this will not be an issue in the future. I’ve heard the concept that love is something you “choose” to do, rather than something you feel. It’s just taking a long time for that to really sink in for me, but I think I’m getting there!

jkiernan, I appreciate your insight, especially because it is a different perspective than most of the respondents bring to this discussion. A lot of people talk about “choosing” to love (a concept I am trying to embrace!) but when you pair it with the “obligation to love,” it doesn’t really feel like a choice, but more of a punishment. What you’ve expressed–that I can’t generate a desire for intimacy with my husband where there never has been one–is what I fear and why I joined this forum in the first place. Since we were divorced, I’ve heard a lot of people agree with you, but I’ve always heard from several people who DID eventually generate that passion toward their mates. I’m between a rock and a hard place right now! I really appreciate your suggestion to talk to a cannon lawyer. I’m open to any guidance I can get right now, and I think a cannon lawyer might have a different perspective than laymen or pastors, since they are often witnesses to the intricacies of troubled marriages.

humble maid, I don’t believe my husband manipulated me. I think that we both made promises we weren’t able to keep. We reassured each other that the sexual passion, as I knew it in previous relationships, would come once we were able to have sex. Since then, we’ve both learned a lot about the difference between premarital sex and marital sex, and we’re both realizing that we can never share the premarital sex experience. From what people have said to me at this forum I think at this point, to make the marriage to work, it’s a matter of accepting that the passionate love that I had in my youth is a thing of the past and that I need to work on appreciating marital love for what it is and stop hoping for it to be something that it’s not.

peary, as humble maid noted, I answered your question earlier in the thread. If you’re curious, here it is! forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=5828823&postcount=9

 

[Liberanosamalo]

You know, sadly, this post illustrates a tremendous danger about premarital sex. It can completely ruin people’s expectations for marriage. It’s like developing a taste for hotdogs and then not appreciating steak.

To Augusta Sans, you need to remember a very very real psychological principle that counselors use all the time. Feelings follow action. Not the other way around. If you treat someone like they are the best person in the world and you are absolutely in love with them, eventually, you will start feeling that way. It’s how the brain is wired.

Couples can see the reverse of this… start treating your spouse carelessly and rudely, and after a while your feelings for them will be less loving. They’ll react to that. And it spirals downward.

Eventually, people end up hating each other.

Smile at someone and you’ll find for some reason, YOU like THEM more.

It’s the way the brain works. Don’t ask me the mechanics.

Think how you felt making that list of all your spouse’s great qualities. After praising him, didn’t you feel even better about him?

Keep working at the physical affection. You might surprise yourself.

 

[kage_ar]

Matthew Kelly “The Seven Levels of Intimacy” - buy that one today.