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Augusta_Sans
Guest
Can you tell me a bit more about the book? I found a review, but I’m curious to know how it relates specifically to my situation.
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kage_ar
Guest
books.google.com/books?id=11b5OnKLAYcC&printsec=frontcover&dq=seven+levels+of+intimacy&ei=RqARS__rB6WGzATbxOSFDQ#v=onepage&q=&f=falseCan you tell me a bit more about the book? I found a review, but I’m curious to know how it relates specifically to my situation.
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Augusta_Sans
Guest
Sorry, I guess my question wasn’t very clearly worded. I know how to search the internet for book titles. I wasn’t asking for a link. I was asking you, as someone who has read the book and recommends it, to tell me how it relates to my situation specifically.
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humble_maid
Guest
She admitted that she was not manipulated into marrying him; so that takes care of that. As for her going to a cannon lawyer that would be fine if she was seeking an annulment, which I believe is not what she wants. What I do know is that loving a person requires committment and that is what she is struggling with; the question here is not whether she can find sexual pleasure in her husband but rather if she truly loves him. Then again that is my opinion.
I know one thing for sure through my years of experience is that you don’t marry someone because they are a good catch but because your whole being is drawn to that person and on every level; physical, spiritual, intellectual and emotional.
God’s Blessings upon you
K
kage_ar
Guest
This is a book by a Catholic author, someone who is faithful to the teachings of the Church. It speaks about how one chooses to love. This book helped me to accept my husband for the person he is, and not to expect him to be something he is not.
My best suggestion is for you to read the preview and see if you think it is something that will help.
Your specific situation? I have trouble getting my mind around what you have said here. I do not believe a marriage must have fireworks and butterflies every day in order to be a good marriage. To be married to my best friend is heaven on earth for me.
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AngelEyes4Jesus
Guest
Hello!
I am sorry you have felt attacked by some of the responses! I want to point out that it is difficult to judge and give a respose to someone with only reading little excerpts on a thread, but I think I have a pretty good understanding of where you are coming from…
I was married before, very young. It has sense been annuled. In my first marriage, we were not particularly religious. The sex started out amazing–it was a new thing, and I was a virgin so it was the only thing I knew. We didn’t however click any other way. We didn’t agree on anything, and he became very physically and verbally abusive. Needless to say, the sex fizzled out. we went MONTHS without it. 8 or nine months at a time.
Fast foward–I re marry a man. An amazing man. The kindest, most gentle man I have ever know. We did have sex togther, and move in togther before marriage because we were not practicing Catholics. The sex wasn’t that great. It was OK, but not mind blowing or anything. Once we came back to the church, and I awaited my annulment, we stopped having sex. During this time, we prayed togther, went to church togther, confession togther, and volunteered at the church at various times We also went to “Theology of the Body” seminars and wrote letters to eachother about what we hoped to get out of life. The common thing we both wanted was a respecful loyal partner, and a marriage full of children that glorified God. Recently, in the beginging of November, we slipped up and had sex after MONTHS of being chaste. let me tell you IT WAS AMAZING MIND BLOWING better then I ever had love making! Forming a spiritual bond with this man and loving him on so many levels totally changed our love making. What was once a “quick” thing ( aiming at reaching climax and not much else ) lasted hours. The I love yous that were exchanged was amazing. My husband literally loved every single piece of me from telling me I had beautiful ears, to saying my hair smleed nice and that he could look in my eyes forever. The point of this is not to be explicit but to show you rather, that when your sex life is united spiritually with God and with eachother, the rest comes naturally. It has been VERY VERY hard to abstain now… as we are having our marriage blessed by the church in 2 weeks! but I know what awaits me. I can’t wait. I would take this love making over the first “sex” I had with my X anyday.
I would seriously re consider your choice to leave your husband. I remebr reading that in a spouse it is what makes him-- him --that matters. When you are 70 or 80, sex will prolly be a distant memory, but there will be other ways of making love. His looks will change, the sex will change, money will come and go, but he and what makes him him will remain constant. It sound slike you have found a really good man. I would pray to Jesus for a better sex life with him. Don’t be embaressed to ask God for a better sex life–he invented it after all!
In Christ,
Nicole
I am sorry you have felt attacked by some of the responses! I want to point out that it is difficult to judge and give a respose to someone with only reading little excerpts on a thread, but I think I have a pretty good understanding of where you are coming from…
I was married before, very young. It has sense been annuled. In my first marriage, we were not particularly religious. The sex started out amazing–it was a new thing, and I was a virgin so it was the only thing I knew. We didn’t however click any other way. We didn’t agree on anything, and he became very physically and verbally abusive. Needless to say, the sex fizzled out. we went MONTHS without it. 8 or nine months at a time.
Fast foward–I re marry a man. An amazing man. The kindest, most gentle man I have ever know. We did have sex togther, and move in togther before marriage because we were not practicing Catholics. The sex wasn’t that great. It was OK, but not mind blowing or anything. Once we came back to the church, and I awaited my annulment, we stopped having sex. During this time, we prayed togther, went to church togther, confession togther, and volunteered at the church at various times We also went to “Theology of the Body” seminars and wrote letters to eachother about what we hoped to get out of life. The common thing we both wanted was a respecful loyal partner, and a marriage full of children that glorified God. Recently, in the beginging of November, we slipped up and had sex after MONTHS of being chaste. let me tell you IT WAS AMAZING MIND BLOWING better then I ever had love making! Forming a spiritual bond with this man and loving him on so many levels totally changed our love making. What was once a “quick” thing ( aiming at reaching climax and not much else ) lasted hours. The I love yous that were exchanged was amazing. My husband literally loved every single piece of me from telling me I had beautiful ears, to saying my hair smleed nice and that he could look in my eyes forever. The point of this is not to be explicit but to show you rather, that when your sex life is united spiritually with God and with eachother, the rest comes naturally. It has been VERY VERY hard to abstain now… as we are having our marriage blessed by the church in 2 weeks! but I know what awaits me. I can’t wait. I would take this love making over the first “sex” I had with my X anyday.
I would seriously re consider your choice to leave your husband. I remebr reading that in a spouse it is what makes him-- him --that matters. When you are 70 or 80, sex will prolly be a distant memory, but there will be other ways of making love. His looks will change, the sex will change, money will come and go, but he and what makes him him will remain constant. It sound slike you have found a really good man. I would pray to Jesus for a better sex life with him. Don’t be embaressed to ask God for a better sex life–he invented it after all!
In Christ,
Nicole
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Augusta_Sans
Guest
Maybe YOU didn’t, but I DID marry someone because he is a good catch. I was NOT drawn to him on every level. I’m happy for you that your marriage is so wonderful–it sounds like everything that I wished mine would become.
I’m doubtful your perspective will be valuable to me, knowing that your marriage is blessed in the ways that mine was not.I’m sad that demands for “fireworks and butterflies every day” is all that you took away from the months worth of feelings I’ve confessed to this community. That is NOT what I pray for, and it’s distressing to me that after reading everything I’ve written, you simplify what I’m looking for into a schoolgirl fantasy. I really think there’s more to marriage than textbook compatibility (which my husband and I have), and I don’t think that “something more” is fireworks and butterflies, but a deeper connection, such as the one humble maid is blessed with and described above.
How exciting for you and your soon-to-be Catholic marriage! My husband (boyfriend at the time) and I were physically intimate before we were married (we did not have sex, but we would make-out and did experience that “rapture” of being in the arms of a love–just without intercourse.) Then once we were engaged, we were chaste for nearly a year and when we came together, we just couldn’t recreate the passion we had experienced early on. I hope that after you are through your period of abstinence, you can continue the wonderful intimacy that you slipped up and shared this month. Best of luck to you and your soon-to-be!
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kage_ar
Guest
Perhaps I have misunderstood - what I have gathered is that you married a good, practicing Catholic, stable, loving man with whom you have great communication - the problem is that you have no desire sexually for him. That is what I mean by fireworks and butterflies - did I miss another issue?
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humble_maid
Guest
My dear sister,Maybe YOU didn’t, but I DID marry someone because he is a good catch. I was NOT drawn to him on every level. I’m happy for you that your marriage is so wonderful–it sounds like everything that I wished mine would become.
I don’t think that “something more” is fireworks and butterflies, but a deeper connection, such as the one humble maid is blessed with and described above.
I think you have misinterpreted what I said. I did mention that my marriage is thriving because I choose to love my husband and because Jesus helps me. Otherwise there is not much difference between you and myself. You only have to make the choice and be commited.
My marriage was even more difficult then what you are going through now so all I am saying is that if I could make it so can you. I needed that kind of love YOU have with your husband; the kind where you feel safe, respected, cared for, and adored.
The grass is always greener on the other side isn’t it Augusta.
Your husband is committed, now it is up to you. You can choose to love him and save your marriage or you can forfeit; either way it is up to you.
God has blessed you I believe but sometimes we cannot see with our own eyes; so see with the eyes of your Lord and ask Him earnestly. It surprises me you make little reference to The Lord and to the faith. Place your confidence in Him. He knows your heart and will give you what you need; be patient and cheerful whenever possible. Do not wrestle with your feelings but be charitable and honest. It is easier said than done but this is a rule I try to abide by.
God Bless
P.S. I thought my husband was a good catch too.
J
jkiernan56
Guest
That one statement alone makes me stop and give pause. After all the things you have written about choosing to love and the many ways God has blessed you, wouldn’t you have to agree your husband was a “good” catch? I seem to be sensing a vibe here in your statement that he wasn’t a good catch. You can’t have your cake and eat it too … LOL … sorry …
J
joandarc2008
Guest
I think this is the important part to remember-
Marriage is a vocational sacrament.
Vocational is the same adjective used to describe work. Now, look at your job, sometimes it is fun and there are good parts. Sometimes you want to quit and never look at these people again, and sometimes you are probably apathetic to it. It is not always the love of your life. It is something you must toil at everyday.
Same thing with marriage. Nothing is a fairy tale. However at times when it is not all it is expected to be better to look towards the kingdom of Heaven and not what your expectations.
Marriage is a vocational sacrament.
Vocational is the same adjective used to describe work. Now, look at your job, sometimes it is fun and there are good parts. Sometimes you want to quit and never look at these people again, and sometimes you are probably apathetic to it. It is not always the love of your life. It is something you must toil at everyday.
Same thing with marriage. Nothing is a fairy tale. However at times when it is not all it is expected to be better to look towards the kingdom of Heaven and not what your expectations.
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Augusta_Sans
Guest
joandarc2008, that’s another great analogy and hits home for me.
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newbetx
Guest
Or you could go get the CD from lighthouse Catholic Media. I relisten to this recording all the time. And pick up new ideas of how to relate to others especially my family.
But if you think you already communicate this way, then it might not be a significant (name removed by moderator)ut.
I want to reiterrate that we have the opportunity to enjoy a totally new level of relationship when we marry. Many an arranged marriage works because it is a dedication to the other person even if one did not pick that person.
I really think you are on the right track of things now. I know that sex with different people is very different. Sometimes its great most of the time. Sometimes only some of the time. And sometimes, not so great at all. This is a problem for only those with experience. If we only ever had one partner, that’s all we would know. And sex would be “great.” Eating the forbidden fruit changes our perspective of others and our expectations.
I think we all have some idea of characteristics of a relationship we want to have with a person and how that person will perform. This is called projection. Every now and then, we discover the projection just can not be met. We have to decide to adjust our expectations or move on. We have to decide how important these expectations are and if they are workable. With good communication, the spouse may be able to change, to accommodate the expectation, maybe not.
In my first marriage I was always being compared to other peoples husbands, held to some idealistic persona and constantly informed I didn’t meet expectations. No matter how much I wanted to stay married and get along, eventually, I gave up. The comments, the put downs, the shows put on for the benefit of her friends all hang with me today. Remember, as much as your ex still loves you, what happened (divorce) and why (sexual expectations) will continue to hurt him until you apologize and free him from those hurtful feelings. As TOB reminds us, it’s not about what we get, but what we give that shows love.
There’s plenty of great marriages out there without great sex. There’s lots of great dads without them being the romantic characters movies and books build as characters. There are many women that wish their husbands loved them, respected them, and would be a dedicated partner for life.
How would you decide to marry this man (or not) if you knew nothing about sex and what it would be like with him?
H
humble_maid
Guest
On the contrary. I am fulfilled in the Lord and as a result it improved my marriage immensely. He has put ‘IN’ what was left ‘OUT’. I prayed daily for continual support to allow me to withstand the up’s and down’s of life generally, but overall my husband is a good catch. Of course the ego me would like to have some changes but they remain mostly superficial. So all said and done one can find happiness and forge it but only if the other is willing as well. No point in loving someone who cannot respect you or the sanctity of marriage.
I just hope she makes the right decision not based solely on reason but on the possibility of having a DEEP MUTUAL RESPECT and a sense of belonging that provides room for intimacy. She should also pray more and place her trust in Jesus.
God Bless
H
humble_maid
Guest
Thank you Newbetx for sharing your story. The idea of ‘choosing’ to stay married can be best understood within this paragraph. If we are able to change within a respectable degree of compromise to unite ourselves to our spouse, then we will emerge with a different perspective; one that would probably create a more agreeable and positive environment. Thus will allow the relationship to be taken on a different level but only if the participants are willing and committed. That is my take.
God Bless
S
shannyk
Guest
. I relisten to this recording all the time. And pick up new ideas of how to relate to others especially my family.
But if you think you already communicate this way, then it might not be a significant (name removed by moderator)ut.
I want to reiterrate that we have the opportunity to enjoy a totally new level of relationship when we marry. Many an arranged marriage works because it is a dedication to the other person even if one did not pick that person.
I really think you are on the right track of things now. I know that sex with different people is very different. Sometimes its great most of the time. Sometimes only some of the time. And sometimes, not so great at all. This is a problem for only those with experience. If we only ever had one partner, that’s all we would know. And sex would be “great.” Eating the forbidden fruit changes our perspective of others and our expectations.
I think we all have some idea of characteristics of a relationship we want to have with a person and how that person will perform. This is called projection. Every now and then, we discover the projection just can not be met. We have to decide to adjust our expectations or move on. We have to decide how important these expectations are and if they are workable. With good communication, the spouse may be able to change, to accommodate the expectation, maybe not.
In my first marriage I was always being compared to other peoples husbands, held to some idealistic persona and constantly informed I didn’t meet expectations. No matter how much I wanted to stay married and get along, eventually, I gave up. The comments, the put downs, the shows put on for the benefit of her friends all hang with me today. Remember, as much as your ex still loves you, what happened (divorce) and why (sexual expectations) will continue to hurt him until you apologize and free him from those hurtful feelings. As TOB reminds us, it’s not about what we get, but what we give that shows love.
There’s plenty of great marriages out there without great sex. There’s lots of great dads without them being the romantic characters movies and books build as characters. There are many women that wish their husbands loved them, respected them, and would be a dedicated partner for life.
How would you decide to marry this man (or not) if you knew nothing about sex and what it would be like with him?
extreme awesome post!
F
FrenchGwen
Guest
Hello Augusta
I just read this whole tread and I am soooo glad I did, because I can relate to so much in it :
I just read this whole tread and I am soooo glad I did, because I can relate to so much in it :
- DH and I have been married for a little under 16 months now, and our first months of marriage were very, very difficult owing to my being greatly disappointed about the whole sex matter. So first thing: this is perfectly NORMAL
- like you, I couldn’t resign myself to it and thought we had a huge problem, which made things worse. => Second thing: I ACTUALLY proposed my husband that we should stop having sex because I felt this was THE problem area in our marriage, and that anything else was fine. I am soooo glad he didn’t accept, and we kep working on it. Only a few months later my best friend married, and … we came to talk about it => the relief came: they, too, had their difficulties.
- our problems too, were partly due to the fact that we were both unsure of what we were doing, and somehow expected the other to take the matter into his hands. So we both were hurt / uninterested when we noticed the other one did not act as expected.
- I said I thought the main problem area in our marriage was sex, and had always thought we had a great communication. Yet simultaneously to accepting that it was normal to have “sex problems” at the beginning of a marriage, I realised that our inability to communicate about them may well reveal some communication problems. I / we then first focused on improving our relationship together first (but luckily kept having sex during this period). Strangely things began improving afterwards.
- and last thing, which has just dawned an me when reading this post: we both were virgins when we married, and had never had any previous relationship, BUT we sort of messed around / went too far while we were engaged. I always thought there must be a connection between some of our problems and this, but I never knew what. Now, thanks to the experience-sharing of others here, I have a clue. I already knew that part of the problem is what I would call my “psychological lameness”: somehow my head can never get as thrilled as would be needed, I tend to be distracted during the act. Now I suppose this has to do with the fact that I grew accustomed to messing around with sort of an unhealthy thrill. Now this thrill has gone, I need readjusting.
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curl
Guest
Dear FrenchGwen,I just read this whole tread and I am soooo glad I did, because I can relate to so much in it :
…
So, as a conclusion : to my mind, you’re on the right way. Ok, you lost some time, and have got back to square one, BUT you can work on it !! and you do, which is truly wonderful.
Very nice post. Very wise. Congratulations on the way you handled things!
- curl
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Augusta_Sans
Guest
FrenchGwen,
Thank you for sharing your story! I wish that I had friends more similar to myself when we were first married. It would have been nice to know we weren’t alone! I was the first of my siblings, cousins, and friends to marry. My husband had a number of married friends, but none of them abstained before marriage. Our Catholic counselor focused on the drudgery of the obligation and did not let me know how fulfilling the obligation would change how I felt, over time. Oh, how I wish I knew then what I know now!
Unfortunately, we did stop having sex after about 10 tries. We were both frustrated and I think we were both relieved to take that stresser off the table. We continued along until we stopped kissing and being affectionate at all, and we ended up being roommates that got along very well.
Thank you for sharing your story! I wish that I had friends more similar to myself when we were first married. It would have been nice to know we weren’t alone! I was the first of my siblings, cousins, and friends to marry. My husband had a number of married friends, but none of them abstained before marriage. Our Catholic counselor focused on the drudgery of the obligation and did not let me know how fulfilling the obligation would change how I felt, over time. Oh, how I wish I knew then what I know now!
Unfortunately, we did stop having sex after about 10 tries. We were both frustrated and I think we were both relieved to take that stresser off the table. We continued along until we stopped kissing and being affectionate at all, and we ended up being roommates that got along very well.
F
FrenchGwen
Guest
thanks curl. I have to say I’m proud of how our marriage has evolved in these 16 months it has already lasted. I would never have thought it could be come THAT good, even though the sex issue is not yet fully mastered
. Seeing how the difficulties of our 1st year evolved to the happiness of the 2nd year, we’re just sooooo curious to see what’s next. I mean: if 16 months have brought us THAT MUCH closer, (and that less self-centered… talk of Marriage as a path to Holyness !) what will 16 years do ??
And I have to say that, since we’ve worked on the different issues we had, I try to be more of a witness for others in this respect, too: I do not “hide” our difficulties anymore. Well, I don’t go as far as telling strangers things that are, after all, really intimate, but I let some of our engaged friends know that, yes, the 1st year of marriage WAS difficult, even if I do not explain in which ways. So at least, when they have difficulties, they’ll maybe remember my words and feel less alone.
and the “take that stresser off the table” thing was precisely the temptation I gave in when I begged DH to let us “go back to the engaged stage”. The thing I learnt then is that in a marriage you can’t put anything off the table. You can’t turn your back to problems, even though you would soooo much love to, but you have to deal with each and everyone of them, however small or big they may be.
I trust you will manage !!
. I have to say I’m proud of how our marriage has evolved in these 16 months it has already lasted. I would never have thought it could be come THAT good, even though the sex issue is not yet fully mastered. Seeing how the difficulties of our 1st year evolved to the happiness of the 2nd year, we’re just sooooo curious to see what’s next. I mean: if 16 months have brought us THAT MUCH closer, (and that less self-centered… talk of Marriage as a path to Holyness !) what will 16 years do ??Well, I suppose that’s what this forum is about: enabling to share with ‘virtual’ others what we may not be able to share with the ones who are closest to us.
And I have to say that, since we’ve worked on the different issues we had, I try to be more of a witness for others in this respect, too: I do not “hide” our difficulties anymore. Well, I don’t go as far as telling strangers things that are, after all, really intimate, but I let some of our engaged friends know that, yes, the 1st year of marriage WAS difficult, even if I do not explain in which ways. So at least, when they have difficulties, they’ll maybe remember my words and feel less alone.
oooooh, I fully understand that one : yeah, 10 times, just the number of time where you just think : “hey, i’m not a total beginner anymore, so by now, these problems should not be there anymore too !”
and the “take that stresser off the table” thing was precisely the temptation I gave in when I begged DH to let us “go back to the engaged stage”. The thing I learnt then is that in a marriage you can’t put anything off the table. You can’t turn your back to problems, even though you would soooo much love to, but you have to deal with each and everyone of them, however small or big they may be.
I trust you will manage !!
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