My marriage: disillusioned from day one

[Salonika]

newbetx:

I"m going to look into “paralyzed perfectionist.” I hadn’t heard about it before but sounds vaguely familiar.

I hadn’t heard the phrase before and also intend looking into it.

When we’ve done that, maybe either newbetx or me or someone else who’s interested in it, should start a thread about it. Unless, of course, someone already has.

I suspect I have the tendency in some areas of my life.

 

[joandarc2008]

I hadn’t heard the phrase before and also intend looking into it.

When we’ve done that, maybe either newbetx or me or someone else who’s interested in it, should start a thread about it. Unless, of course, someone already has.

I suspect I have the tendency in some areas of my life.

A very wise woman told me this once: Perfectionism is just another form of ego. To think that we can be perfect is to put ourselves on the same platform with Christ - obviously never going to happen.

Therefore we are setting ourselves up for failure and in failure we give ourselves the excuse to repeatedly sin because if I cannot be perfect why should I try?

The solution to this is to remember that we strive to be Christ-like not Christ.

And please-this is said with love not as an attack- just as it was said to me. :hug1:

 

[Consecrated]

A very wise woman told me this once: Perfectionism is just another form of ego. To think that we can be perfect is to put ourselves on the same platform with Christ - obviously never going to happen.

Therefore we are setting ourselves up for failure and in failure we give ourselves the excuse to repeatedly sin because if I cannot be perfect why should I try?

The solution to this is to remember that we strive to be Christ-like not Christ.

And please-this is said with love not as an attack- just as it was said to me. :hug1:

That is a very good thing to ponder… and it can also be said about scrupulosity. Isn’t it interesting how most difficulties we encounter in our lives turn out to be because of our pride…?

 

[Liberanosamalo]

Augusta, maybe God allowed you not to have any pleasure in the marital embrace until you got a grip on that paralyzed perfectionism. Maybe because He knows you’re not ready to conceive a baby yet.

Because you cannot have that attitude and have children too. The first thing you have to surrender when you have children is the idea that you can control or perfect anything around you. Even your own actions will have to be allowed to slip. Your makeup won’t be perfect, you won’t be perfect in your housekeeping any more. The baby won’t be doing everything perfectly, (especially when it turns 2 and realizes it has a mind of its own.)

Are you being counseled for dealing with “less than perfect” in life? The thing I found as a mother was how little control I have in ANYTHING (and less so as they became teenagers )

 

[Augusta_Sans]

Are you being counseled for dealing with “less than perfect” in life?

YES! And it has been extremely helpful. I started seeing my counselor about six months ago and after a few weeks she said: “I’m not asking you what would make your life ‘good;’ I’m asking you what would make your life ‘good enough.’” Since then, I have been translating my idyllic goals into more realistic ones. It’s bittersweet for me. In a way, I feel listless because I am “settling for less,” but I have to admit that I am feeling more hopeful and more successful, generally.

 

[Liberanosamalo]

No, you are not “settling for less.”

Spiritually, we all seek the Perfect. Our hearts were made for Heaven and God’s Ultimate Perfection.

You recognize that. You’re just trying to have that here and now. It is an impossibility. Maybe if you told yourself you weren’t “settling for less” now but rather you were “appreciating a foretaste of true perfection” in heaven.

Everything we enjoy here and now is a small glimpse of the glory God has prepared for us in eternity.

You just want it here and now. Ain’t gonna happen.



Not from people, not from things, not from you.

Accepting the finiteness of our own world and our own efforts and our own capacities is not “settling.” It is recognizing reality. Go read Corinthians I, 1-13. That whole part about how we used to “see through a glass darkly” and someday we will see without the blinders, we will see God’s perfection face to face… that’s what it is about.

When you tell yourself you’re 'settling" instead of saying “You’re seeing people and things realistically” you are setting yourself up to be dissatisfied. Try telling yourself the second message.

The beauty of Catholicism is its view that grace builds on nature. Those of us raised knowing that intuitively from our upbringing may have difficulty seeing how lacking that viewpoint can inhibit one’s appreciation of life. It’s what we have confession for, because once you accept Christ as your savior it doesn’t mean you are perpetually saved. You have to work at it. Even Christ in the Eucharist is hidden behind the appearance of mere bread and wine. We appreciate flawed and imperfect creation not as an end in itself, but as a foretaste of the promises to come if we die in unity with our Creator.

Appreciating it even with the flaws isn’t “settling.” Even marital union is a poor physical manifestation of the joy we will find in our ultimate union with God Himself. You cannot expect your spouse to supply that which God ultimately can only give. But your spouse can help you to attain that, the reason we get married. To help each other attain mutual sanctification. And it sounds like you have a spouse who is willing to do just that.

Union with such a person is not “settling.”

 

[monicatholic]

this tangent-- discussion of perfectionism is excellent. someone please start a new thread!

Liber, your insight is great. and Augusta, the counselor’s directive “good enough” wow. that rocks.

the adage "“good is the enemy of best” almost ruined a few years of my marriage. when i finally realized my perfectionist pennance (i was trying to make up for many past failures) was making all my loved ones-- husband, kids-- crazy, i knew it had to stop.

but as you attest to Augusta, stopping is hard. it’s like performing surgery on yourself-- to root out and remove all the tentacles perfectionism grows.

in AA we say, “progress. not perfection.” but for years i didn’t get it.

but Jesus says, “be ye perfect.” He means in love. so, how to balance all that? at this place in my life, here’s my standard for every single day:

love God above all things. love others as myself. well done, though imperfect, in important things. everything is not an important thing.

 

[newbetx]

YES! And it has been extremely helpful. I started seeing my counselor about six months ago and after a few weeks she said: “I’m not asking you what would make your life ‘good;’ I’m asking you what would make your life ‘good enough.’” Since then, I have been translating my idyllic goals into more realistic ones. It’s bittersweet for me. In a way, I feel listless because I am “settling for less,” but I have to admit that I am feeling more hopeful and more successful, generally.

I must say that your attitude seen here is much improved over when you first came here. I see great desire to accept (name removed by moderator)ut, look at options, and see good in posts and people. A quite positive outlook if you ask me.

 

[Augusta_Sans]

I must say that your attitude seen here is much improved over when you first came here. I see great desire to accept (name removed by moderator)ut, look at options, and see good in posts and people. A quite positive outlook if you ask me.

In my defense, some of the early responders accused me of “perpetuating a hoax” on my husband (that person went back and edited out the accusation after I quoted it though), said I was “mean,” and judged me based on what other posters said about my situation.

A lot of people are quick to scream, in all caps, OBLIGATION!!!11!, but fewer people can explain that fulfilling that obligation leads to joy. When people screamed “obligation” at me, all I heard was “suck it up and deal with it–you don’t deserve to find joy because you committed to this life of sadness.”

Throughout the discussion (and in my private messages from others) I am seeing that it’s possible that by putting my whole heart into that obligation, the feeling of “love” that I’m looking for will result, instead of the feelings of resentment I foresaw.

Hope that transformation makes sense. It does to me, and I’m VERY excited about my Retrouvaille weekend.

 

[Amber2]

Hi there
I did not read through all the replys you got, only a few, so maybe I will repeat someone elses advise. First of all, I am sorry about all your troubles. It sounds like you have been quite disillusioned wih some aspects of married life, which are crucial.
I also think that some people were quite condemning in their reply to you
My advise would be to read Christopher West: Good news about sex and marriage. For my husband and I sex was always a huge and important part in our marriage, and I can imagine how lacking in this important aspect of married life can do great damage. CW in is book talks a lot about the meaning and importance of sex but not only that, the way he writes made us/me appreciate it more. On a soul level. He gives a concrete advise: to look your spouse into the eyes during the act. For us it meant more…HEAT
I hope you and your husband will work it out, and am sure that with God’s help you can have a wonerful marriage with everything including intimacy.
God bless you,
A

 

[newbetx]

In my defense, some of the early responders accused me of “perpetuating a hoax” on my husband (that person went back and edited out the accusation after I quoted it though), said I was “mean,” and judged me based on what other posters said about my situation.

A lot of people are quick to scream, in all caps, OBLIGATION!!!11!, but fewer people can explain that fulfilling that obligation leads to joy. When people screamed “obligation” at me, all I heard was “suck it up and deal with it–you don’t deserve to find joy because you committed to this life of sadness.”

Throughout the discussion (and in my private messages from others) I am seeing that it’s possible that by putting my whole heart into that obligation, the feeling of “love” that I’m looking for will result, instead of the feelings of resentment I foresaw.

Hope that transformation makes sense. It does to me, and I’m VERY excited about my Retrouvaille weekend.

Oh, I see. Yes, I have trouble with the “marital debt” and “obligation” concept too… until I understood that being submissive isn’t the same as being a slave. Being part of a loving act, no mater how unenjoyable it might be, brings about a good feeling if you realize it is necessary for the well being of another. Like changing a diaper or caring for the elderly or even mopping a floor. Is that right? Or am I still a bit off on how a woman might see the “obligation.”

 

[newbetx]

I also think that some people were quite condemning in their reply to you

I don’t know what it is, but no one here goes through a “good bedside manner” course before being allowed to post here. Some, I think just get a kick out of putting other people down. Sometimes I bark back at them. On this thread though, I noticed Augusta was handling it quite well. As if she’d seen this type of stuff before or is use to dealing with people that just like to gripe.

Again, I think her positive attitude about things now is quite commendable. And I hope the poor guy doesn’t have to wait too much longer before he gets his “Eve” back home.

 

[Liberanosamalo]

Being part of a loving act, no mater how unenjoyable it might be, brings about a good feeling if you realize it is necessary for the well being of another. Like changing a diaper or caring for the elderly or even mopping a floor. Is that right? Or am I still a bit off on how a woman might see the “obligation.”

No, you’re not. I was just coming here to say the same thing.

A mother has an obligation to take care of, feed and clean her helpless baby. Now, she can sit and resent it and the mother/child relationship will go downhill if she sees it as servitude and because she doesn’t get obvious pleasure from a dirty diaper at 2 a.m. she decides to stop changing the baby… well, you can see where that goes.

Or she can embrace her duties as a mother and use that time to talk to and sing to the baby and the baby will respond and be happy and the mother will enjoy the happy clean baby that has grown to trust her and see her as someone who will make it feel better and more comfortable and more secure. That in turn brings the mother joy.

Same with feeding the baby and rocking it to sleep.

I really believe in the grand scheme God intended marriage to come before babies just for this reason… marriage has a way, if lived properly, of ironing out some of our more selfish tendencies so that we are better able to care for the children when they come along. We learn to give because the other needs, not because we get something from it. Because there is no bigger sponge of need and non-returned affection than a newborn. They can be an emotional and physical black hole of exertion if you don’t look at them with the right point of view. All work and little reward for weeks until one day you get that priceless smile. But you won’t get that priceless smile until you’ve taught baby by your own smiles to do so.

I think marriage prepares us for that kind of turning around of our world view from being a single dependent upon ourselves to being someone others depend on.

 

[whatevergirl]

In my defense, some of the early responders accused me of “perpetuating a hoax” on my husband (that person went back and edited out the accusation after I quoted it though), said I was “mean,” and judged me based on what other posters said about my situation.

A lot of people are quick to scream, in all caps, OBLIGATION!!!11!, but fewer people can explain that fulfilling that obligation leads to joy. When people screamed “obligation” at me, all I heard was “suck it up and deal with it–you don’t deserve to find joy because you committed to this life of sadness.”

Throughout the discussion (and in my private messages from others) I am seeing that it’s possible that by putting my whole heart into that obligation, the feeling of “love” that I’m looking for will result, instead of the feelings of resentment I foresaw.

Hope that transformation makes sense. It does to me, and I’m VERY excited about my Retrouvaille weekend.

*I am glad things seem to be working out! I have been following this thread, and hopeful things will turn around for you and your husband.

I will say one thing…I wouldn’t equal having sex with your husband to an ‘‘obligation.’’ Instead, I’d look at it like this…(and this helped me at various times in my marriage) A husband and wife are one flesh. It doesn’t mean you can’t ever say no, when you’re not feeling well, etc…but what it does mean, is that we should think to ourselves…’‘how will saying yes or no here affect THE MARRIAGE?’’ I think that when I started viewing my husband as not on ‘another team,’ but that we made up one team, it changed things considerably. Maybe it’s just a semantics thing with me, I dunno. lol Nonetheless, good luck to you both…I am excited for you. *

 

[Liberanosamalo]

May I suggest also, Augusta, and no offense intended… but your earlier “more enjoyable experiences” may have been just that because they were really temporary. And your lack of feeling joined now is a product of fear.

Follow my logic…

Premarital sex is damaging because it has all of the symbol and none of the substance. It’s like icing with no cake. All the fun, none of the obligation. You still retain most of yourself. You gave your body, but you didn’t give your heart and soul to that person. Deep down, you retain yourself. You can still leave and never look at them again. You are in charge. (Something maybe a perfectionist prefers. Control.)

Then you get married. Now you know it’s for real. Forever. That can be scary. No out clause. You are now taking part in an action which is a complete pouring out of self to the other. A complete donation of yourself, body, soul, mind and heart to another person. You are surrendering your very self. You become theirs in a way none of the premarital lovers could ever claim.

Scary stuff. And if we really thought about it we’d be petrified to ever get married and do that.

Doubly scary maybe for a perfectionist to completely surrender such emotional and physical and psychological control to someone else.

But that is the heart and soul of the marital act. No holding back. No barriers. No conditions. No retractions. In giving, we receive. But we must give. And that’s where the problem is. A mental block comparing the surface relationships with others to the complete donation of self to a spouse.

Seems that’s the hurdle you need to get over. The one in your head and heart. The body will follow.

But I think things are very hopeful for you.

 

[whatevergirl]

No, you’re not. I was just coming here to say the same thing.

A mother has an obligation to take care of, feed and clean her helpless baby. Now, she can sit and resent it and the mother/child relationship will go downhill if she sees it as servitude and because she doesn’t get obvious pleasure from a dirty diaper at 2 a.m. she decides to stop changing the baby… well, you can see where that goes.

Or she can embrace her duties as a mother and use that time to talk to and sing to the baby and the baby will respond and be happy and the mother will enjoy the happy clean baby that has grown to trust her and see her as someone who will make it feel better and more comfortable and more secure. That in turn brings the mother joy.

Same with feeding the baby and rocking it to sleep.

I really believe in the grand scheme God intended marriage to come before babies just for this reason… marriage has a way, if lived properly, of ironing out some of our more selfish tendencies so that we are better able to care for the children when they come along. We learn to give because the other needs, not because we get something from it. Because there is no bigger sponge of need and non-returned affection than a newborn. They can be an emotional and physical black hole of exertion if you don’t look at them with the right point of view. All work and little reward for weeks until one day you get that priceless smile. But you won’t get that priceless smile until you’ve taught baby by your own smiles to do so.

I think marriage prepares us for that kind of turning around of our world view from being a single dependent upon ourselves to being someone others depend on.

*highlighted for emphasis, mine…

Amen to that. *

 

[FrenchGwen]

This thread is turning so GREAT !!

Seems like I will just have to quote LIberanosamalo

No, you are not “settling for less.”

Spiritually, we all seek the Perfect. Our hearts were made for Heaven and God’s Ultimate Perfection.

You recognize that. You’re just trying to have that here and now. It is an impossibility. Maybe if you told yourself you weren’t “settling for less” now but rather you were “appreciating a foretaste of true perfection” in heaven.
Everything we enjoy here and now is a small glimpse of the glory God has prepared for us in eternity.

and

I really believe in the grand scheme God intended marriage to come before babies just for this reason… marriage has a way, if lived properly, of ironing out some of our more selfish tendencies so that we are better able to care for the children when they come along. We learn to give because the other needs, not because we get something from it.
…]
I think marriage prepares us for that kind of turning around of our world view from being a single dependent upon ourselves to being someone others depend on.

are soooo true !!!
“ironing out” is the exact phrasing, it’s perfect, I really feel like, since I’ve been married, all selfish tendencies have had to recede from the dark corners where I let them hide.

And, as to perfection, I remember writing somewhere here, in another thread about “newlywed sex”, that many of our fears and deception regarding the honeymoon came from this expectation of perfection: perfection as a given, marriage as a path where no one would ever stumble. Well, that’s NOT what marriage is about : marriage is not a story of “starting high and keeping there, careful not to fall”, but of “starting low and slowly climbing together, falling from time to time, yet always resuming walking”.

(again : love this post)

 

[newbetx]

No, you’re not. I was just coming here to say the same thing.

A mother has an obligation to take care of, feed and clean her helpless baby. Now, she can sit and resent it and the mother/child relationship will go downhill if she sees it as servitude and because she doesn’t get obvious pleasure from a dirty diaper at 2 a.m. she decides to stop changing the baby… well, you can see where that goes.

Or she can embrace her duties as a mother and use that time to talk to and sing to the baby and the baby will respond and be happy and the mother will enjoy the happy clean baby that has grown to trust her and see her as someone who will make it feel better and more comfortable and more secure. That in turn brings the mother joy.

Same with feeding the baby and rocking it to sleep.

I really believe in the grand scheme God intended marriage to come before babies just for this reason… marriage has a way, if lived properly, of ironing out some of our more selfish tendencies so that we are better able to care for the children when they come along. We learn to give because the other needs, not because we get something from it. Because there is no bigger sponge of need and non-returned affection than a newborn. They can be an emotional and physical black hole of exertion if you don’t look at them with the right point of view. All work and little reward for weeks until one day you get that priceless smile. But you won’t get that priceless smile until you’ve taught baby by your own smiles to do so.

I think marriage prepares us for that kind of turning around of our world view from being a single dependent upon ourselves to being someone others depend on.

It would be more proper for me to respond in a new thread, so I won’t here. A new thread, however, isn’t on the plate for a while.

I do want to say that the change from selfish to selfless is a long journey. And much has to do with attitude. The marriage road to selflessness starts prior to marriage as you court. It continue after marriage as you live together and learn to work as one. It definitely changes when you have children, then as they leave the nest and one grows old or a spouse becomes ill, another opportunity presents itself for becoming more selfless.

All along the way, “obligation” is implied. We know all too well what happens when people shed “obligation” by leaving a relationship rather than “stepping up” to it, embracing it and welcoming the challenge as an opportunity to love as Christ loves us.

Yes, I do believe that people do things to “get something.” We are selfish by nature, selfless by discipline. If the desire to “get something” is more than the desire to give, there is a problem. But to be happy we improved (or at least tried to) another persons’ life is adequate for many good people.

I think the OP has realized that sometimes you don’t get what you want, but you can get what you need. God is like that, at least in my life. Many times the answer is “No.” to my desires. But in reflection, I am truly blessed. It’s His will, after all. To be a servant of God is to be a servant to others. We are called to serve, no matter how mundane or undesirable the situation. But a servant isn’t a slave, but a supporter. A valuable cog in the machine of life. We are called to carry our cross for the benefit of others. Jesus died for us. Was he “happy to?” Hmm. that, too might be another thread.

Marriage is about dying for another. Sacrificing oneself for the good of the other, is indeed, a learned behavior. But not at the extreme of being used by the other. A delicate balance of how to get a spouse to heaven. And from what I’ve been told here and other places, it’s our #1 job as a spouse. By doing so, we “get something.” Getting to heaven ourselves. And wasn’t that our goal and something we want, too?

 

[PeterMuz]

A marriage without sex is just like a same sex friendship.

This is incredibly wrong. If you believe this than you think that there is no real difference between men and women outside of their reproductive organs. This is not true. There are vast differences between men and women.

Sex is not a human need, intimacy probably is, but not sex. What about people who make vows of celibacy? If sex were in fact a human need, then the Catholic Church would not ask Priests and those in Religious vocations to go without it, just as they would not ask them to go without food or shelter.

 

[PeterMuz]

No, you’re not. I was just coming here to say the same thing.

A mother has an obligation to take care of, feed and clean her helpless baby. Now, she can sit and resent it and the mother/child relationship will go downhill if she sees it as servitude and because she doesn’t get obvious pleasure from a dirty diaper at 2 a.m. she decides to stop changing the baby… well, you can see where that goes.

Or she can embrace her duties as a mother and use that time to talk to and sing to the baby and the baby will respond and be happy and the mother will enjoy the happy clean baby that has grown to trust her and see her as someone who will make it feel better and more comfortable and more secure. That in turn brings the mother joy.

Same with feeding the baby and rocking it to sleep.

I really believe in the grand scheme God intended marriage to come before babies just for this reason… marriage has a way, if lived properly, of ironing out some of our more selfish tendencies so that we are better able to care for the children when they come along. We learn to give because the other needs, not because we get something from it. Because there is no bigger sponge of need and non-returned affection than a newborn. They can be an emotional and physical black hole of exertion if you don’t look at them with the right point of view. All work and little reward for weeks until one day you get that priceless smile. But you won’t get that priceless smile until you’ve taught baby by your own smiles to do so.

I think marriage prepares us for that kind of turning around of our world view from being a single dependent upon ourselves to being someone others depend on.

Very well said.