My marriage is over

[siamesecat]

People keep saying the child isnt his. Biologically, of course it isnt. But what makes somebody a father? I mean being there for the sexual act, does that make you a father? What about the people who adopt then? I can totally understand why you no longer want to be with your wife, but I dont see the whole “another mans baby” thing. If you are a father to the child and raise him or her as your own (preferably without contact from bio dad) I see you as the father. I can still understand why you dont want to, but from a Catholic perspective, I think you are supposed too. But I mean, what makes someone a father, both in general and religiously?

 

[rayne89]

YinYangMom:

What does fault have to do with anything?

You married her. You entered into a covenant with her.
She broke her end of the covenant.
So that makes it ok for you to break yours?
No.

You are still bound by the vows you took.
A child is about to be raised in a split home, not because of your wife, but because of you.
You are putting your own interests above those of your wife and her child.
And all out of pride.
Yes, you’re feelings are hurt.
Yes, the trust is broken.
But marriage is for a lifetime.
And your marriage can be saved.
Many other couples have done the work to save theirs in similar situations.
Do not be a coward.
Be strong.
Face your responsibilities as the husband of this woman and embrace this child.
This child is not another man’s.
This child is God’s, and He has entrusted the child’s life & soul into your hands.
He has faith in you.
He does not want you to run away.
By staying put, living the example of forgiveness, honor, duty to God’s plan above your own or that of your wife, you may be able to convert your wife’s heart and you deffinitely will be setting a wonderful example to God’s child.

Will it be difficult?
You betcha.
But you will not be alone.
Your wife will fight you tooth and nail, but I suspect you would have the support of her parents.
And you will have the Holy Spirit to get you through this.
Trust in Him.

Well I’m glad to know I’m not the only one who is saying this.

 

[john_doran]

YinYangMom:

He entrusted the child to the mother who is carrying it. By the marriage covenant that child becomes the husband’s of the wife. If Joseph had taken that approach we’d be in deep trouble right now.

but joseph almost did take that approach, and only chose not to when an angel visited him in a dream…

but i’ll ask you again, anyway: what role is left for the biological father? why is it diver’s responsibility more than his?

YinYangMom:

He can be happy as a father to this new life, especially since he would be following the Church teachings on being a chaste spouse.

says you. again. not everyone is made happy by the same things. nor is it the case that everyone ought to be made happy by the same things.
YonYangMom:

Are we speaking about physical abuse or verbal? If physical, then the woman is certainly free to leave the premises. She’d remain married, however, but she is not obliged to put her life or that of their children in harm’s way. It doesn’t release her from her vows.
Verbal is trickier, but again, if the husband is unwilling, the wife still carries responsibility to seek counseling through a priest and/or therapist to help her resolve the situation.

what difference does it make if we are speaking about verbal or physical abuse? in your view, what is the threshhold, in terms of quantity/quality of abuse, that needs to be exceeded before separation is allowable? and what is it about (that kind of) abuse that legitimizes separation?

and define “harm”. i am harmed by my wife’s infidelity. i am gravely harmed, as is our marriage. why does that kind of harm not matter?

YinYangMom:

And, excuse me…raising another person’s child is not morally impossible. It’s a challenge, yes, but only because of pride and ego. Resolve the ego/pride issues and it can be quite rewarding.

“morally impossible” doesn’t mean “impossible”, or “impossible to do morally” - it means “impossible to do in a manner consistent with loyalty to oneself as a (morally rectifiable) person”.

and you are deluding yourself if you believe that the only things that make these situations infeasible are pride and ego. in fact, it can just as easily be asserted that the only thing that makes you so unwilling to countenance legitimate alternatives to your view are pride and ego.

can you at least present me with a good reason to think that only sinful attitudes are compatible with mine and diver’s stance on this matter?

YinYangMom:

Disagree all you want. From the Church’s teachings, married couples are obliged to do everything they possibly can to repair the relationship. Separation is an option, but divorce never is. Annulment can come into play but it has to be after all other means to fix things have been exhausted.

define “everything they possibly can”. do you think everyone has the same limits? everything they possibly can isn’t necessarily the same thing as everything you possibly can.

and if you’ll note, i agree with you that divorce isn’t an option. that’s why i said “marriage is forever”.

??? Says who?

says me. can you demonstrate my error? where is it definitively taught by the church that trust is something that must ***necessarily ***be given to anyone other than god?

YinYangMom:

Because the child is also the responsibility of the mother and he is married to her for life.

so? let the husband pay spousal support if needs be; child support is something entirely different.

YinYangMom:
As for the moral duty…I’m talking about Catholic obligation. I don’t recognize your guidelines of morality as being consistent with Church teachings.
nor i yours.

 

[YinYangMom]

GodBlessJoanie:

Where’s the bio father in all of this? Is he stepping up to the plate and bearing ANY responsibility for this mess - or is he totally out of the picture?

Maybe “mom” has other plans which is why she doesn’t want her husband involved.
Blessings,
Joanie

That’s between the bio father and God…and he’s not the one seeking advice from us.

As for Mom…the woman is obviously making bad choices, but the husband vowed to love and protect her till death do them part. She, and her soul, are most in need of his strength and conviction right now. He is abandoning her rather than trying to save her. This is unacceptable in the eyes of Christ.

Matthew 9:12-13

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12But when Jesus heard this, He said, “It is not those who are healthy who need a physician, but those who are sick.
13"But go and learn what this means: ‘I DESIRE COMPASSION, AND NOT SACRIFICE,’ for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners.”

 

[YinYangMom]

Catholic2003:

This is a nice sentiment, but it does not reflect Church teaching. What the Church teaches is that adultery does indeed make it ok for the innocent party to perpetually separate from the adulterous spouse.

Provided all other means have been exhausted, yes.

I do not see any evidence of this being the case.
I see emotions running high and raw and people reacting without thoroughly thinking the ramifications through.

 

[YinYangMom]

john doran:

but joseph almost did take that approach, and only chose not to when an angel visited him in a dream…

And the angel revealed what the correct moral response should be in this situation. Do you presume to contradict that instruction?

but i’ll ask you again, anyway: what role is left for the biological father? why is it diver’s responsibility more than his?

Whatever role is negotiated between the parties. His role is between him and the mother - and then the husband of the wife. His interest in the child, if any, has yet to be revealed by the original poster.

says you. again. not everyone is made happy by the same things. nor is it the case that everyone ought to be made happy by the same things.

Who says we Catholics are meant to by happy during our time on earth anyway?? Jesus certainly told us His path would be difficult. This should not be news to any Christian. But Jesus also showed us that if we trust in Him He will get us through whatever burdens we have to carry.

what difference does it make if we are speaking about verbal or physical abuse? in your view, what is the threshhold, in terms of quantity/quality of abuse, that needs to be exceeded before separation is allowable? and what is it about (that kind of) abuse that legitimizes separation?

The threshold is determined by the husband, wife and spiritual advisor.

and define “harm”. i am harmed by my wife’s infidelity. i am gravely harmed, as is our marriage. why does that kind of harm not matter?

One can get over ‘harm’…we are called to forgive and heal…it’s hard, certainly, but not impossible.

“morally impossible” doesn’t mean “impossible”, or “impossible to do morally” - it means “impossible to do in a manner consistent with loyalty to oneself as a (morally rectifiable) person”.

But our loyalty is not to ourselves…it is to God.

and you are deluding yourself if you believe that the only things that make these situations infeasible are pride and ego. in fact, it can just as easily be asserted that the only thing that makes you so unwilling to countenance legitimate alternatives to your view are pride and ego.

I’m not debating legitimate alternatives. I am posing the position of the Church with regard to these circumstances. The Church holds God’s laws above civil laws. Just because we can legally do severally things by civil standards doesn’t mean we can morally do so if the civil standards are against God’s laws.

can you at least present me with a good reason to think that only sinful attitudes are compatible with mine and diver’s stance on this matter?

I don’t recall making such a statement so I have no reasons to offer.

define “everything they possibly can”. do you think everyone has the same limits? everything they possibly can isn’t necessarily the same thing as everything you possibly can.

They start with Catholic marriage counseling and take it from there. The therapist and their priest will present their options to them and help them through this rough patch.

and if you’ll note, i agree with you that divorce isn’t an option. that’s why i said “marriage is forever”.

Ok.

says me. can you demonstrate my error? where is it definitively taught by the church that trust is something that must ***necessarily ***be given to anyone other than god?

I didn’t make a statement that trust is something that must be given to anyone other than God. But all marriage covenants are given in trust on the day of the wedding. Trust can be rebuilt if people are willing to work toward that goal. In order to preserve this marriage trust will need to be reestablished.

so? let the husband pay spousal support if needs be; child support is something entirely different.

Certainly. That’s between the husband, wife and legal system. No disagreement there.

nor i yours.

But I am able to point out scriptural and Catholic references to support my position. Where are the Catholic sources to support yours?

 

[Princess_Abby]

I seriously cannot believe Diver is running off to Mexico and leaving his wife.

Diver, I’m so sorry how hurt you are–I truly am. But you loved her up until a month ago. Isn’t there any way for you to forgive her? To wait until after the pregnancy before you jump ship and abandon?

The idea of listening to a frightened, angry and cornered pregnant woman when she says, “I don’t want you in the baby’s life!” is just so silly to me. If Diver is going to use that as a justification for leaving her, then I think that’s just plain sad.

 

[Princess_Abby]

How is your wife going to support herself? Are you going to take the house and as many assets as possible? Where is she going to live? Where is the bio father in this situation?

 

[tcay584]

Princess_Abby:

How is your wife going to support herself? Are you going to take the house and as many assets as possible? Where is she going to live? Where is the bio father in this situation?

She should have thought of that before she chose to get pregnant with another man’d child! I can’t believe how many of you are jumping on him because his wife, his trusted partner, tossed him over for a roll in the hay with another guy…then lied to him trying to make him think the child was his…then refuses to express one iota of remorse. Holy Cow!

 

[Catholic2003]

YinYangMom:

Provided all other means have been exhausted, yes

No, this is your personal opinion. The Church, in her wisdom, does not impose this requirement.

Adultery is such a horrific betrayal of the marriage vows that the innocent spouse need not exhaust any other means, but may choose to perpetually separate based on even a single act of infidelity. In fact, adultery is the only grounds that the Church admits for perpetual separation.

This is discussed in great detail in this thread, where an errant but now contrite husband is expecting the Church to force his estranged wife to reconcile with him after his adultery.

Edited to add this excerpt of a canon law commentary from the referenced thread:

Like cc. 1129-1130 of the CIC/1917, c. 1152 mentions the only cause in canon law that can give rise to perpetual separation: adultery by one of the spouses. According to the common opinion of writers, the admissibility of adultery as a cause for perpetual separation is based on the regula iuris frangenti fidem, fides non est servanda, a logical consequence of the general legal principle, fides est servanda.

…

By penalizing adultery, the legislator is directly protecting the very status of the defrauded spouse in his or her faith, inasmuch as adultery violates the most unique obligation of marriage, fidelity related to the specifically conjugal acts. It is protecting not so much the personal dignity of the innocent spouse, as much as the specific marital dignity of the innocent spouse; it is protecting the spouse precisely because s/he is a spouse. Adultery extinguishes first the obligation of conjugal sexual intercourse and consequently the obligation of cohabitation. The other causes of separation are established to the extent that they represent a threat to the spouse as a person and directly affect the obligation of cohabitation, involving the potential danger that that cohabitation could pose to the body or soul of the spouses.

 

[anne1234]

WHOA tcay584!!!

Even in this messed up situation, we don’t know what the dynamics of this relationship was all about.

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We just know what Diver chooses to type out.
Again, I don’t want to start a riot here, but we don’t know everything.

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I don’t think it’s fair for you to say she chose to go out and get pregnant.
** Also, I don’t think it’s fair that some here are jumping all over Diver no matter what he does…if he stays he’s wrong, if he leaves he’s wrong.**

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I think this thread should be about praying for ALL these people… parents included.

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Pray that God touches their hearts and minds and souls, and to give them pause and time to think.

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This is so very sad.

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[tcay584]

WHOA tcay584!!!

Even in this messed up situation, we don’t know what the dynamics of this relationship was all about.

We just know what Diver chooses to type out.
Again, I don’t want to start a riot here, but we don’t know everything.

I don’t think it’s fair for you to say she chose to go out and get pregnant.
Also, I don’t think it’s fair that some here are jumping all over Diver no matter what he does…if he stays he’s wrong, if he leaves he’s wrong.

I think this thread should be about praying for ALL these people… parents included.

Pray that God touches their hearts and minds and souls, and to give them pause and time to think.

This is so very sad.

I agree with you completely… we don’t know both sides of the story. How you can say she didn’t choose to get pregnant is beyond me. She was (allegedly) unfaithful multiple times. Apparently, she made multiple choices.
Never mind even the getting pregnant part…what about her letting her husband think it was his? That’s just reprehensible.

 

[Shoshana]

anne1234:

I don’t think it’s fair for you to say she chose to go out and get pregnant.

I am sorry but I was always under the impression that when one beds down with another of the opposite sex, there is possible/probable chance of getting pregnant. Sex=pregnanacy! Was this thought out at the time??? I doubt it. But they are not children/adolescents who would be surprised that they got caught getting pregnant when they did it only one time! Sex=pregnanacy!

The same can be said for STDs. This is the chance you take when playing with fire…you get burnt! No excuse can excuse adultery…it is a flagrant breaking of a vow that God has implemented when they married.

Passions can run high but…you are aware when the man that is sleeping beside you is not your husband. Otherwise, it just may be a case of a psychotic episode. Is this the case?

And to reaffirm…Praying for you and yours, diver…may the Lord and Mary help you to decide fully what you should do…

 

[YinYangMom]

Catholic2003:

No, this is your personal opinion. The Church, in her wisdom, does not impose this requirement.

Adultery is such a horrific betrayal of the marriage vows that the innocent spouse need not exhaust any other means, but may choose to perpetually separate based on even a single act of infidelity. In fact, adultery is the only grounds that the Church admits for perpetual separation.

This is discussed in great detail in this thread, where an errant but now contrite husband is expecting the Church to force his estranged wife to reconcile with him after his adultery.

Edited to add this excerpt of a canon law commentary from the referenced thread:

It seems, then, that Diver_Zero can, without jeapordizing his status in the Church, perpetually separate himself from his wife just on this count of adultery alone.

And this is current teaching? Not one which has been updated at all?

This means, however, that he cannot get involved with another woman for the rest of his life, correct?

I find it hard to believe the church would condone his abandoning his wife at such a dire time in her life without any effort at all towards reconciliation. I will have to search for other Church writings on reconciling marriage problems…

Thanks for the information, though.

 

[mumto5]

I wish you all the best diver, and recognise that we can’t possibly know all the ins and outs of your situation.

Puzzleannie - so he bears some reponsibility for selfishly taking a job that makes him travel away a few weeks a year? Rubbish. He needs a job, this just happens to be it.
Runs off to tell husband that since he insists on having a job where he has to go away and leave me with five kids without support that it is pefectly understandable that I might decide to take a lover in his absence

 

[YinYangMom]

As FOCCUS facilitators in our parish (for engaged couples) we were trained at the Diocesan center that the one question in the inventory addressing unfaithfulness is there to open up dialogue about how unfaithfullness comes in various forms, infidelity being one of them, but that all unfaithfullness is an indicator of an underlying problem in the marriage - namely a breakdown in communication - and that the engaged couple should understand going into the marriage that when trouble hits they are to revisit the communication in their marriage before calling it quits.

Perhaps this is why I’m troubled with the reference supporting walking away after one incident of infidelity - without requiring any attempt be made to heal/repair the relationship first.

 

[Catholic2003]

YinYangMom:

And this is current teaching? Not one which has been updated at all?

I’ve quoted the current Church teaching, which has mellowed somewhat from the early Church’s.

YinYangMom:

This means, however, that he cannot get involved with another woman for the rest of his life, correct?

Correct. Perpetual separation due to adultery is completely different than annulment.

YinYangMom:

I find it hard to believe the church would condone his abandoning his wife at such a dire time in her life without any effort at all towards reconciliation.

The Church does teach that it is better for Diver_Zero to try to reconcile with his wife. As his priest told him, he is not taking the “moral high road.”

I see analogies in other areas of life. I imagine that people starving in third-world countries find it hard to believe that the Church condones Catholics owning luxuries such as TV’s instead of requiring good Catholics to use all their extra money to help the poor. And St. Francis of Assisi certainly did a very good thing by selling all of his possessions and living naked in a cave. But the Church does not require that level of selflessness of every Catholic.

YinYangMom:

Thanks for the information, though.

You’re welcome.

 

[mumto5]

YinYangMom:

Perhaps this is why I’m troubled with the reference supporting walking away after one incident of infidelity - without requiring any attempt be made to heal/repair the relationship first.

The OP has made it clear in other posts that it was not ‘one incident’.

 

[Diver_Zero]

here is a quote from one of the 6 accredited diving schools in the country.

“Starting salaries range between $58,000 and $95,000 a year. The salary of a deep sea diver is determined by work experience, quality, and work attitude. Pay increases from base can range from $60,000 to $100,000 per year, and/or hazard pay if applicable”

ive been diving since i was 18, and put myself through college with a B.S. in marine science, so figure how much per year that would be. that child no matter what will never in their life worry about money.

My wife will support herself by keeping the house, and the high yield mutual fund, as well as her brand new escape hybrid and 1/2 our savings.

i dont need to worry about money because the diving in Mexico is off an oil platform up to 240 feet deep [horrifically dangerous], where the hazard pay could potentially let me retire next year in my 20’s.

how would you all feel if while working at 150-240 feet, your wife is sleeping around with some guy in YOUR bed.

she is wanting to separate now because she feels i violated our “marriage” by telling her parents about the baby, and how i cant accept this child. go figure. now the whole family knows, and some friends as well.

we as divers have such deep trust and reliance on each other. we accept mistakes from our comrades, but direct violation of trust is a huge no-no. when you cant trust someone out there, you all DIE. plain and simple. you drown, get lost, or get the bends.

i cant help how i was raised and trained, and i feel that by not only cheating on me, but by sleeping with and spending the night with the guy in OUR bed for two solid weeks is such a blatant violation of trust that i cant accept it.

not only was he “some guy”, but he was her “study buddy” in a group for accounting at college [that i was paying for]. “some guy” who helped her though finance classes and came to my house. i actually liked him. i dont know buisiness, so i thought it was wonderful that someone would help her where i couldnt. i even told him that if he could get her through calculus, that id pay for his books as payment for his senior year.

how much more violated could i have been?

 

[Wolseley]

Just my 2 cents worth, diver, I understand your sense of betrayal, and I don’t blame you one damned bit.