My Mom keeps saying all of these terrible things about the Catholic Church

[thequietsinger]

First off, my Mom was Catholic, but converted to the Greek Orthodox Church when I was baptized. Lately, my Mom has really been showing so much anger towards the Church, and I have this funny feeling she may know that I am planning to convert in the future. That aside, I had a rather odd discussion with her last night. We were talking about televangelists, nothing bad about them, just talking about what they do, which led to talking about Catholicism. Out of the blue, she raised her voice at me and just started going off about how bad the Church is, why no young people want to be a part of it, how bad the Popes have been, about all of the cover-ups, and all of these things just made me feel so bad. What she says (said) doesn’t change my views, but it kills me that I really have no real way to defend the Church without suspicions coming to light. I honestly don’t know if this next part goes against forum rules, and if it does, please forgive me, but I just don’t know where else to go to. My Mom told me that the people shouldn’t have to pay for the sins of the clergy, meaning what some have done to others in the Church over the years, and that the money from the offering goes towards the “issues” the clergy face once these things come to light. Is this true, or do you think she could have made it up? I haven’t found one source to back this up, and I just don’t know why she continues to do this. No one is perfect. Everything, and everyone, eventually, has dents and scratches in/on it, but you have to look past those imperfections to see the true beauty in something. How can I explain this to her, that not everyone is perfect and that people make mistakes, even the clergy? I apologize for this being so long, but I just feel so lost.

 

[Abba]

Some decades ago, there was a formula going around, about how 80% of anger comes from hurt and the other 20% from envy or it maybe 10% from envy and the other ten something else. It could be that you mother left the Catholic Church out of hurt or feels hurt that because of xyz she left or feels that she needs to justify her leaving and so pointing the finger at problems does the job. I would be patient with a person that feels anger at the Church and instead of responding to the attacks address the origin of their sentiments. Why did your mother leave the Church? Do you know?

Regarding the sex scandals, it’s true. It is painful and shocking but true. I was shocked and the truth is I still am. I wonder if that was not the vision a Pope once had about Satan preparing to attack the Church (the one that wrote about the smoke of Satan - he had a vision or something at the altar one day when praying). I also consider Fatima and how Our Lady said that Satan was going to attack the Church. I am not taking responsibility from those the priests that committed such atrocities but I am conscious that Satan was having a ball. I, as many Catholics, had priests up on a pedestal and was very hurt to learn of the crimes some committed against children. I was hurt for the holy priests in my life because they had to live with being associated with such horrible things. The important thing to recognize is that priests are not holy robots of God. Priests have their free will and they are human just like you and me. They can sin and they need to work out their own individual salvation, just like the rest of us but within their vocation. Now the Church is aware and better prepared to deal with such most horrible situations. As a matter of fact, just this week, it was in the news that Pope Francis has set up a commission especially to studied the problem. I think the best defense and what we as Catholics need to keep in mind is that priests are humans and their salvation is not guaranteed with Our Lord Jesus, they have to work out their holiness.

Finally, I think that it would be good to be open with your mother and let her know (although she may know already) that you are interested in converting to the Catholic Church. You can discuss it. And, yes, definately I would find out why she left the Catholic Church and discuss that with her. Of course, with the appropriate tone and in the right atmosphere etc…

Hope this helps.

 

[esieffe]

Jesus said on the cross, “Forgive them father, for they know not what they do!” Your mother will get over it in time. Simply avoid the subject with her, as I am simply going to keep my mouth shut about my experiences with some of the followers of the Greek Orthodox church!

 

[Trebor135]

First off, my Mom was Catholic, but converted to the Greek Orthodox Church when I was baptized. Lately, my Mom has really been showing so much anger towards the Church, and I have this funny feeling she may know that I am planning to convert in the future. That aside, I had a rather odd discussion with her last night. We were talking about televangelists, nothing bad about them, just talking about what they do, which led to talking about Catholicism. Out of the blue, she raised her voice at me and just started going off about how bad the Church is, why no young people want to be a part of it, how bad the Popes have been, about all of the cover-ups, and all of these things just made me feel so bad. What she says (said) doesn’t change my views, but it kills me that I really have no real way to defend the Church without suspicions coming to light. I honestly don’t know if this next part goes against forum rules, and if it does, please forgive me, but I just don’t know where else to go to. My Mom told me that the people shouldn’t have to pay for the sins of the clergy, meaning what some have done to others in the Church over the years, and that the money from the offering goes towards the “issues” the clergy face once these things come to light. Is this true, or do you think she could have made it up? I haven’t found one source to back this up, and I just don’t know why she continues to do this. No one is perfect. Everything, and everyone, eventually, has dents and scratches in/on it, but you have to look past those imperfections to see the true beauty in something. How can I explain this to her, that not everyone is perfect and that people make mistakes, even the clergy? I apologize for this being so long, but I just feel so lost.

A few weeks ago my (Eastern) Orthodox priest told me about how the communist state in the Soviet Union, when not persecuting the Church, did everything possible to undermine it–such as by having bishops appoint/ordain those of poor character to be priests, who would discredit the Orthodox Christian faith by their bad example.

If your mom knew about the scandalous collusion by clergy of her (Eastern) Orthodox Church with the bloodthirsty, gulag-operating anti-Christian Soviet regime, I wonder where she would move next?

 

[Xantippe]

thequietsinger said:

“My Mom told me that the people shouldn’t have to pay for the sins of the clergy, meaning what some have done to others in the Church over the years”

And innocent clergy shouldn’t have to suffer for the sins of the guilty, but they do.

Likewise, if your mom did something terrible, you would suffer. Or if you did something terrible, your mom would suffer. Without moving to a desert island and giving up all electronic connection to the mainland, there’s no way of keeping ourselves from suffering for other people’s wrongdoings, or keeping other people from having to suffer from our wrongdoing.

I’d also add that since the Church is BIG, any problem that the Church has is going to be a BIG problem.

 

[ClearWater]

First, I wanted to congratulate you on hanging in there thus far inspite of all the difficulties, trials, and obstacles! :yup::clapping::bounce:
That’s very hard.

There are a lot of issues there, and it’s hard to get to all of them, but I’ll at least try to hit some of them.

Just so you can understand why we believe in the pope, I think one needs to go back to scripture. There are numerous references in the Bible to Peter and his important role in the Church. For instance, Christ spoke to Peter, asked him, and him alone, 3 TIMES to shepherd the Church. Christ gave him the “keys to the kingdom”. Christ said all authority on heaven and earth had been given to him. In turn he turned to Peter, said, “What you hold bound on earth will be bound in heaven. What you loose in earth will be loosed in heaven”.

Christ changed Simon’s name to Peter, which means “Rock”, saying, “On this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of hell will not prevail against it”!

Now, we believe that the apostles held what we would now call “offices”. Recall that when Judas committed suicide, he was replaced with Matthew. When Peter was martyred, likewise, he was replaced. Ever since, we have had the descendants of Peter who were there by DIVINE authority.

When people rejected the prophets, who spoke in Christ’s name, they rejected Christ. The same thing happens when we reject the pope, a priest, or a representative of the Church. That’s serious.

Now, was Peter perfect? No. He denied Christ 3 times! He also was once corrected by St. Paul for not treating people equally, and Peter accepted correction, with humility.

So yes, Peter was sinful, but that never stopped Christ from choosing him to lead the Church in Christ’s absence nor any of the apostles. Christ also chose **JUDAS **as his disciple, but we can’t throw the entire Church, and Peter, out because of one Judas!

There will always be a Judas. There was one from the very beginning of the Church, and there is now, and I suspect there will be in the future. However, it still doesn’t change the fact that Christ gave Peter special authority to establish whatever rules, laws necessary to make the institution of a Church in a global world.

Now, the disciples were, likewise, sinful. St. Francis of Assisi was told, when he established his order that there would be some who would come from it who would cause great scandal for the Church. St. Francis hesitated and asked God if more good would come out of the order or bad and was told, even so, it’d be more good than bad. So, St. Francis went ahead, knowing there would be people in his own order which would give it a bad name.

Now, since the Church is made of up people, likewise, we are not perfect. Neither is her church perfect. If you/she researched it, I am pretty sure you could find some of its leaders, and parishioners, somewhere in history who had made major mistakes, too.

Personally, I try not to judge the Church by a few individuals, or even countries, who don’t practice its beliefs. I look at the Church and accept its beliefs, because I think the beliefs are true, not because so and so practices, or doesn’t, practice the faith.

A lot of people like to bring up the priest scandal when they really want to get ugly when attacking the Church. However, when they attack the Church, they are also attacking Christ!

The Catholic Church is the original Church. The others have split off later, often because they wanted their own man-made leaders for various reasons. Henry the VIII couldn’t get an annulment, ran out and headed his own church.

I think other churches have their leaders, just don’t use the word “pope” is all.

As to the Church’s spending money on trials or such, I really don’t know if it did or didn’t. Either way, it wouldn’t change my opinion on it being the one true Church that Christ intended on establishing.

I see you’re only 16 y.o., so you will have a LONG road ahead of you. That’s a special kind of cross to bear, but God said he’d never give us more than we can carry. You’re probably thinking now that you wished he didn’t think you were so capable!

Now, I’ll include a cheat sheet on apologetics (the study of defending the faith). ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/WALLET.HTM

These are some of the most common issues addressed. There are other cheat sheets, even books on apologetics. You can go online.

Good luck, and God bless you!

I’ll close with a prayer. Hail Mary, Full of Grace, the Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou amongst women, and blest is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death. Amen.

 

[sousley]

I’m sorry that you went through a conversation like that. They represent accusations we all face, but it is worse coming from someone you love than an acquaintance. I would say to try to identify the intent: is the attack meant to prove some type of falsity or was it the result of hurt feelings over scandal. From what you’ve described, it sounds to me a little more like the latter.

If so, she is not alone, and probably shouldn’t be quickly dismissed. Blessed John Paul II said, “There is no such thing as private sin”. Unfortunately, there have been men we feel we should be able to trust that have done sinful things. And when sin like this happens, it saddens us all. Good priests become “stained with the black brush.” They don’t deserve it, but it happens. Lay Catholics somehow felt as though they are associated in some way to this scandal. We are connected, we are Catholic. We feel this connection more profoundly that a Baptist minister guilty of the same offense. The whole Baptist faith does not assume the stigma of the offense. The minister is given a name and that name only belongs proper to the congregation over which he presides. The priest is not given a name; he is “a Catholic priest” and his congregation is world-wide. Sin hurts us all, and truth unites us all. We may feel sometimes that this is unfair, but in truth it is how it should be.

In recent years, Catholic clergy has represented the lowest percentage of abuse cases of any other group. However, the world calls on the Catholic Church more vehemently for restitution for these offenses and greater levels of continual accountability than any other group. Why isn’t the public school system held accountable for these same sins? Is this fair? Yes. Even though many won’t admit it, the world still holds us to greater accountability – because it is as it should be. More is demanded of us, because we are the true Church.

I am proud to be Catholic. I love the Church with her successes and her frailties, not in spite of them. I hope she loves me with all of mine. Hilaire Belloc calls the Church: “An institution run with such knavish imbecility that if it were not the work of God, it would not last a fortnight.” So take comfort and don’t be discouraged, this too shall pass.

 

[mdgspencer]

When my mother spoke strongly against the Catholic Church, I was hurt badly. I became a Catholic when I was 19. But I didn’t say anything after my mother spoke so. I know she disliked Catholicism much and there was no point disagreeing. It is your business to love your mother. That is the important thing.

 

[RPRPsych]

First off, my Mom was Catholic, but converted to the Greek Orthodox Church when I was baptized. Lately, my Mom has really been showing so much anger towards the Church, and I have this funny feeling she may know that I am planning to convert in the future. That aside, I had a rather odd discussion with her last night. We were talking about televangelists, nothing bad about them, just talking about what they do, which led to talking about Catholicism. Out of the blue, she raised her voice at me and just started going off about how bad the Church is,

First of all, good for you, and courage! As for “how bad the Church is”, we need to make a distinction between what the Church teaches, and what a few individual members have done. This applies to any institution that is composed of humans. As Jesus warned us, the Kingdom of God would consist of both the wheat and the darnel, until the end of time.

why no young people want to be a part of it,

Ask her to look up World Youth Day.

how bad the Popes have been,

For several centuries now, we’ve had excellent Popes, some of whom (such as St. Pius X) are already Saints. If we stick to modern times (the post-Vatican II era), we’ve had terrific Popes, two of whom are already candidates for Sainthood.

about all of the cover-ups,

It sickens me when the media highlights this and gives a more-or-less free pass to all the abuses committed by Protestants, Mormons, Muslims, Hindus, and atheists. They’re just picking on the Church because (a) its message makes them uncomfortable, and (b) we’re an easy target. Besides, a lot of the “cover-ups” occurred in the US, and reflect local culture more than the teachings of the Church. You could also tell her about Pope Francis’ plan to set up a commission on child abuse, and Benedict XVI’s zero-tolerance policy.

My Mom told me that the people shouldn’t have to pay for the sins of the clergy, meaning what some have done to others in the Church over the years, and that the money from the offering goes towards the “issues” the clergy face once these things come to light. Is this true, or do you think she could have made it up?

This appears to be an anti-Catholic canard. While the Church does engage in the legal defence of her priests, and has settled some cases out of court, I don’t think this amount is a particularly large one. Moreover, all of us are sinners.

 

[Cricket2]

Concerning your mom: I would suspect that her current anger is a superficial issue that speak to something deeper. I wonder why she left the Church and if she has been hurt in some way.

A lot of people have been very hurt and dismayed by the sex scandal. And, yes a lot of money is being used to address this issue due to law suits. It is unfortunate, but almost every Parish I have knowledge of has suffered financially because of this.

I would suggest being patient and understanding with your mom, and if it seems to be good timing you might ask her why she left the Church. If she does not want to tell you let it go for now. Say prayers for her and all who have been hurt by the Church. There is a lot of healing needed for a lot of people.

 

[mikecash]

I hear you. My Mom is a hardcore neo-Calvinist. I think her entire church is praying that I will see the light and be “saved” from Catholicism, lol. It has gotten to the point we just can’t even talk about Christianity. My Christian Charity is tested daily!

Sometimes it is best to leave things alone. Honestly, it is the work of the Enemy to try to get you off the right path. Keep the Faith. When you do tell her, be kind but say that you have to follow what God is calling you to do. I will pray for you.

 

[BlueEyedLady]

I know this sucks, but one of the hard things about becoming an adult is realizing that there actually are things that you can’t talk to your parents about. When you’re a kid you’re supposed to tell them everything, and always be comfortable opening up to them. Good parents strive for this. But as you get older and start your own life, you and your parents will relate more like two adults with different opinions, rather than an adult guiding a child.

Sometimes, for the sake of harmony, you just have to realize that there are some people you can’t talk religion or politics with. (Or any number of other things, depending on the person and relationship).

For instance, I don’t talk to my mom about food. My mom is morbidly obese, and raised me on the worst diet imaginable. Part of this was because she was so poor, and the other part was because she really was ignorant of healthy eating. When I moved out at 18, I was 5’2 and 230 lbs. Shortly after leaving I lost 100 lbs and took up a very active lifestyle, and now years later I’m far healthier than I ever was at home. My mom is proud of me, but we do not talk about food. She will bread and fry pork and try to feed it to me, claiming that it’s healthy because it isn’t red meat. She doesn’t believe that so many vitamins are water-soluble, so rather than eating anything fresh, she thinks that canned, cooked, soggy vegetables are “just as good”. So, we don’t talk about food. I bring my own when I visit her (I’m a vegan), unless she’s making spaghetti, then she just leaves out the meat for me. But if we talk about food, I just get upset that she doesn’t “get it” about eating and what she has done to herself and what she did to me when I was growing up. At the same time, she gets upset that I don’t understand how I “need” milk, cheese, eggs, and meat, and takes it as a slight that my lifestyle is so different than how she raised me. So years ago we learned that that was an issue we just set aside and leave alone.

We love each other, but neither one of us is going to budge on the issue. She thinks she’s right because it’s “common sense”, and I think I’m right because I’m fit and healthy, but there is not a shred of evidence that one of us could provide the other with that would change our minds. And because it’s something that hits us both in a very emotional place, we just upset each other and it hurts our relationship. Maybe religion will be to you and your mom what food is to me and mine.

 

[Catholic1954]

First off, my Mom was Catholic, but converted to the Greek Orthodox Church when I was baptized. Lately, my Mom has really been showing so much anger towards the Church, and I have this funny feeling she may know that I am planning to convert in the future. That aside, I had a rather odd discussion with her last night. We were talking about televangelists, nothing bad about them, just talking about what they do, which led to talking about Catholicism. Out of the blue, she raised her voice at me and just started going off about how bad the Church is, why no young people want to be a part of it, how bad the Popes have been, about all of the cover-ups, and all of these things just made me feel so bad. What she says (said) doesn’t change my views, but it kills me that I really have no real way to defend the Church without suspicions coming to light. I honestly don’t know if this next part goes against forum rules, and if it does, please forgive me, but I just don’t know where else to go to. My Mom told me that the people shouldn’t have to pay for the sins of the clergy, meaning what some have done to others in the Church over the years, and that the money from the offering goes towards the “issues” the clergy face once these things come to light. Is this true, or do you think she could have made it up? I haven’t found one source to back this up, and I just don’t know why she continues to do this. No one is perfect. Everything, and everyone, eventually, has dents and scratches in/on it, but you have to look past those imperfections to see the true beauty in something. How can I explain this to her, that not everyone is perfect and that people make mistakes, even the clergy? I apologize for this being so long, but I just feel so lost.

I think your Mom is getting her Catholic information from anti-Catholic sources. My diocese had one of the biggest clergy abuse payouts (over 1/2 BILLION dollars) in the US. Most of the money came from insurance, some came from the sale of property, and some came from generous donors. The bishop then made an appeal to the priests of the diocese and asked all of them to donate from their pay in reparation of the actions of their fellow priests. Not one single dime came from the Sunday collection or from the annual Catholic Appeal. Please show me any organization that is perfect and I will join it today.

 

[Rau]

…
In recent years, Catholic clergy has represented the lowest percentage of abuse cases of any other group. However, the world calls on the Catholic Church more vehemently for restitution for these offenses and greater levels of continual accountability than any other group.

If true, that would be an extraordinary result, given the relative size of the CC. Is that a US measure? Do you have a reference to support it?

 

[Rau]

It sickens me when the media highlights this and gives a more-or-less free pass to all the abuses committed by Protestants, Mormons, Muslims, Hindus, and atheists. They’re just picking on the Church because (a) its message makes them uncomfortable, and (b) we’re an easy target. Besides, a lot of the “cover-ups” occurred in the US, and reflect local culture more than the teachings of the Church.

I’m not sure this is a fair characterisation of the issue. There is a major enquiry into institutional child abuse in Australia and I believe the number of cases attributable to catholic clergy exceeds all other institutions combined. Other institutions “in the dock” include the Anglican Church, Boy Scouts, Government child services, mental institutions etc. While its true that the Church is going through a horrible process now, and some accusations may be unjust, by and large we are “guilty as charged” of both the abuse and the mishandling and cover-up. This is a cleansing process, and it has to happen.

 

[BlueEyedLady]

It sickens me when the media highlights this and gives a more-or-less free pass to all the abuses committed by Protestants, Mormons, Muslims, Hindus, and atheists. They’re just picking on the Church because (a) its message makes them uncomfortable, and (b) we’re an easy target. Besides, a lot of the “cover-ups” occurred in the US, and reflect local culture more than the teachings of the Church. You could also tell her about Pope Francis’ plan to set up a commission on child abuse, and Benedict XVI’s zero-tolerance policy.

I’m not sure you understand the issue. Priest scandals don’t make the news because a Catholic harmed a child, they make the news because for decades Catholic institutions have been systematically covering up the abuses and enabling abusers to gather their things and quietly move to a new area to continue abusing.

There are no atheist, Mormon, Protestant, Muslim, or Hindu institutions in the US that I am aware of that have that kind of systematic, hierarchical, long-term abuse problems. Yes, individuals of other faiths commit those kinds of crimes, but their religious institutions don’t spend the kind of time and money that the Catholic church has to hide it and keep the abusers out of prison.

 

[BlueEyedLady]

Actually there are. A child is much more likely to be abused in the public school system then they are by clergy and there were systematic cover-ups for years. They moved pedophile teachers around from school to school and called it “passing the trash.”

Here is a quote from an article and the link:

In 2007, AP ran a series on this subject and found more than 2,500 cases over five years in which “educators were punished for actions from bizarre to sadistic.” That’s only the ones that got caught and were punished. “Most of the abuse never gets reported,” AP found. What often happens is that predators are moved from one school district to another, a practice so common it is known as “passing the trash.” Even those who are suspended keep their salaries, benefits, and pensions.

newsmax.com/BillDonohue/Sex-Abuse-Public-Schools/2013/10/31/id/534065

To be clear, I am in no way trying to diminish the absolute devastation that someone would have felt by being abused by clergy. Yes, we should as a church rally behind that individual and support and pay for counseling and support them in any way possible. Cover-ups are awful and there is no excuse. However the media would have people believe that the Catholic church is alone in this and actually they are not, unfortunately evil is everywhere.

To start with, that article was pretty typical of Bill Donohue, as in, lots of assumptions, but very few facts. He complains about the lack of legislative action-which is something I can get behind. However, he does not provide the numbers that make public schools look anything comparable to the abuses of the Catholic church. To start with, because there is not one hierarchical public school, abuses can be school or district specific. It is not like the entire national education system is covering it up. It pretty much stops at the Superintendent. It isn’t a national, or in the case of the Catholic church, global cover up scheme. The department of education is not giving teachers money in exchange for their quiet retirements. Furthermore, that 10% of school kids have been sexually abused figure? A brief google shows that most of those were instances of verbal harassment, not sexual assault. Furthermore, in 1965 a law was passed that required the government to research sexual abuse in schools. No Child Left Behind further affirmed this responsibility. The Catholic church has only recently started taking serious action.

I don’t hate the church as a whole for this. I don’t even believe that the majority, or even a large minority of priests are like this. But it is time for the church to take responsibility and for it’s members to start unequivocally denouncing the wrong that was done instead of trying to deflect the criticism by pointing fingers.

 

[Rau]

Actually there are. A child is much more likely to be abused in the public school system then they are by clergy and there were systematic cover-ups for years. They moved pedophile teachers around from school to school and called it “passing the trash.”

Here is a quote from an article and the link:

In 2007, AP ran a series on this subject and found more than 2,500 cases over five years in which “educators were punished for actions from bizarre to sadistic.” That’s only the ones that got caught and were punished. “Most of the abuse never gets reported,” AP found. What often happens is that predators are moved from one school district to another, a practice so common it is known as “passing the trash.” Even those who are suspended keep their salaries, benefits, and pensions.

newsmax.com/BillDonohue/Sex-Abuse-Public-Schools/2013/10/31/id/534065

I have no doubt that child sex abuse in a school, supported by an attempted cover up, would be reported by the media. We Catholics aren’t just being picked on.

 

[Cricket2]

Folks: Someone posted indicating that “there are not other institutions” that seem to have the same problem of sexual abuse against children as the Catholic Church and that is why the media goes after her. Wrong!

There are plenty of institutions where sexual assault and pedophilia have been long term problems and still are. These include all nursing homes, facilities that care for the disabled (98% of the disabled are sexually assaulted the first year they enter a group home or care facility.), the girl scouts, boy scouts, public and private schools. All Churches are guilty of this, every last one of them. It is everywhere.

I think the media focuses on the Catholic Church because of her size and it helps create that sensationalism the media likes so much. She did hide it, and now she is not as able to do so. Others places are just as guilty.

If you know of this kind of activity report it. Don’t look the other way. And remember, I’ll preach this until I die; no less than 33% of ALL families have incest going on behind their doors. That is the reported cases. We can’t afford to be so naive about this problem if we want it to stop.

Offenders of this sort need locked up for the rest of their lives.

 

[Rau]

If you know of this kind of activity report it. Don’t look the other way. And remember, I’ll preach this until I die; no less than 33% of ALL families have incest going on behind their doors. That is the reported cases. We can’t afford to be so naive about this problem if we want it to stop.

It always astounds me to hear how many victims of clergy abuse did not go to the police, yet sought to deal direct with church authorities.

What is the scope of a “family” in the statistic you quote? Is it just parents+ kids, or wider? As you go wider, 33% probably represents fewer incest instances.

Do you have a reference / link to this statistic?